MK11 KABAL Discussion

[Espio]

How do you guys feel about Kabal gaining his Hook Grab as a default move? It seems like one of those moves so powerful that it has no point being gear. I don't see any Kabal player not having it in their kit. I think it'd be better to give him that move to create more variety when choosing his other specials.

That's the EXACT reason it should be gear and not base lol. All that will do is free up slots for people to equip even stronger loadouts without that check and balance of sacrificing something else for it.


Also the idea Jade bodies him is absurd, She does well, but every glow is a full combo punishable risk and if you play it right she has to give up ground to zone you. His counterplay is too good in terms of dealing with glow. He also has safe mix and strings to fall back on up close. It's a very fun, competitive match up.

 

[dribirut]

That's the EXACT reason it should be gear and not base lol. All that will do is free up slots for people to equip even stronger loadouts without that check and balance of sacrificing something else for it.


Also the idea Jade bodies him is absurd, She does well, but every glow is a full combo punishable risk and if you play it right she has to give up ground to zone you. His counterplay is too good in terms of dealing with glow. He also has safe mix and strings to fall back on up close. It's a very fun, competitive match up.

Every glow is a risk? Are you kidding me.. it recovers in literally like 15 frames.. get out of here with that. So I have to keep doing hard read nomad dashes to maybe catch a glow...

Cmon man

 

[Espio]

Every glow is a risk? Are you kidding me.. it recovers in literally like 15 frames.. get out of here with that. So I have to keep doing hard read nomad dashes to maybe catch a glow...

Cmon man

You're missing the point and there is no need to be belligerent. The point is because you can punish activation from far out it allows you to approach and mix up your approach. You are using the fear of it more so than the actual reliance upon it.

It doesn't recover in 15 frames, it has 44 frames of recovery. If you're going to be hostile instead of just discussing the point you should at the very least have the correct data.

There is nuance and counterplay was my point, it isn't free. I doubt people are playing the match up optimally at this point and arguing match ups as being horrendous already is quite obtuse.

 

[M2Dave]

I digress - Essentially she is very freddy like but is more control based and also has a kit of normals which supplement her zoning (f2 tentacle f2 tentacle) that freddy would freaking get erect over but we don't need to get into that.

Skarlet is nothing like Freddy. According to the frame data, all of Skarlet's projectiles have around 20 frames of start up, which is below average. On the other hand, Freddy's glove toss starts up in 15 frames. Hell spike starts up in 16 frames and launches. As far as normal attacks are concerned, Freddy has a safe 50/50 mix up with meter. Skarlet's name should not even be spoken in the same sentence as Freddy's if you are discussing zoning. I have seen what accomplished players like Semiij are doing in terms of zoning and nothing has particularly caught my attention. However, Semiij is playing the character properly. He has been beating everybody with Skarlet, including Sonic Fox until he picked Kabal.

Obviously they are good players but I'd argue noone has had enough time to learn all the matchups or master a characters zoning.
I'd rather wait for full version before deciding whether a character is the best at anything. It seems all the characters are close in terms of strength. They all have strengths but have weaknesses as well.
Remember mkx where many placed characters on bottom tier until that player came out with Tek that showed otherwise.
Just my thoughts

I agree, which is why I stated "in the beta". Zoning aside, Kabal appears to be the better character at this moment. The aerial downward buzz saw is highly effective in the neutral. He has a couple of 50/50 mix ups with overhead strings and the low hook grab. He has a re-stand that is +6 on block. Skarlet has to use meter in order to acquire this kind of advantage. Kabal has easily the best fatal blow too, which kind of reminds me of Superman's super in Injustice 1 except that Kabal's fatal blow is safe on block and can be reused after five seconds of cool down. In one of the matches that I posted yesterday, Sonic Fox timed out Semiij with 25 seconds or so remaining in the round. Semiij was so scared of the fatal blow that he barely even moved. LOL.

Also the idea Jade bodies him is absurd.

I am afraid to say that a handful of recent claims in this thread have been absurd. I encourage everybody to watch the streams of players who will travel and compete in this game for money. Also examine the frame data before you start comparing, contrasting, or even inventing your own numbers. All of this information is already available and in plain sight for those who are willing to do a little bit of research.

 

[dribirut]

You're missing the point and there is no need to be belligerent. The point is because you can punish activation from far out it allows you to approach and mix up your approach. You are using the fear of it more so than the actual reliance upon it.

It doesn't recover in 15 frames, it has 44 frames of recovery. If you're going to be hostile instead of just discussing the point you should have the correct data.

Relax I’m not being hostile just salty. And no one is not using it because I might full screen nomad dash. Okay 4/6 of a second is still absurd..

There is no way to punish that on reaction with nomad dash so that argument is a nonstarter. The risk and reward of me doing random nomad dashes to maybe catch a glow is heavily in her favor

 

[dribirut]

Skarlet is nothing like Freddy. According to the frame data, all of Skarlet's projectiles have around 20 frames of start up, which is below average. On the other hand, Freddy's glove toss starts up in 15 frames. Hell spike starts up in 16 frames and launches. As far as normal attacks are concerned, Freddy has a safe 50/50 mix up with meter. Skarlet's name should not even be spoken in the same sentence as Freddy's if you are discussing zoning. I have seen what accomplished players like Semiij are doing in terms of zoning and nothing has particularly caught my attention. However, Semiij is playing the character properly. He has been beating everybody with Skarlet, including Sonic Fox until he picked Kabal.



I agree, which is why I stated "in the beta". Zoning aside, Kabal appears to be the better character at this moment. The aerial downward buzz saw is highly effective in the neutral. He has a couple of 50/50 mix ups with overhead strings and the low hook grab. He has a re-stand that is +6 on block. Skarlet has to use meter in order to acquire this kind of advantage. Kabal has easily the best fatal blow too, which kind of reminds me of Superman's super in Injustice 1 except that Kabal's fatal blow is safe on block and can be reused after five seconds of cool down. In one of the matches that I posted yesterday, Sonic Fox timed out Semiij with 25 seconds or so remaining in the round. Semiij was so scared of the fatal blow that he barely even moved. LOL.



I am afraid to say that a handful of recent claims in this thread have been absurd. I encourage everybody to watch the streams of players who will travel and compete in this game for money. Also examine the frame data before you start comparing, contrasting, or even inventing your own numbers. All of this information is already available and in plain sight for those who are willing to do a little bit of research.

If your going to point to the top players, the only one doing anything with Kabal is sonic..

Im not saying Kabal is bad by any means and I think he at least goes even or beats the other characters but jade seems slightly in her favor

 

[Tony at Home]

I can totally see the argument that fixed variations allow for more variety because they force people to weight the pros and cons of getting some great moves and some lesser moves instead of optimizing into one God Variation

...but also if I'm not mistaken one of Kabal's default variations only uses 2 out of 3 available points and it'd be pretty painful to see any character with lots of potential in their overall moveset get shafted by having a poorly thought out combination of abilities.

 

[roosTakk]

Where can I find tech? Hard to lab stuff out in online matches.... looking for good strings, combos, variations, etc.

 

[babalook]

Anyone find a use for Amplified diagonal air buzzsaw?

 

[dribirut]

My super duper early probably wrong mu chart:
Skarlet 6-4
Jade 4-6
Baraka 5-5
Scorpion 5-5

 

[LEGEND]

Is there a list of all KBs for Kabal and what their conditions are? I hit the low hook one earlier while messing around with it, didn't even know low hook had a KB.

 

[MadPropz101]

Kabal's comeback factor is legit!

 

[Peckapowa]

Skarlet is nothing like Freddy. According to the frame data, all of Skarlet's projectiles have around 20 frames of start up, which is below average. On the other hand, Freddy's glove toss starts up in 15 frames. Hell spike starts up in 16 frames and launches. As far as normal attacks are concerned, Freddy has a safe 50/50 mix up with meter. Skarlet's name should not even be spoken in the same sentence as Freddy's if you are discussing zoning. I have seen what accomplished players like Semiij are doing in terms of zoning and nothing has particularly caught my attention. However, Semiij is playing the character properly. He has been beating everybody with Skarlet, including Sonic Fox until he picked Kabal.



I agree, which is why I stated "in the beta". Zoning aside, Kabal appears to be the better character at this moment. The aerial downward buzz saw is highly effective in the neutral. He has a couple of 50/50 mix ups with overhead strings and the low hook grab. He has a re-stand that is +6 on block. Skarlet has to use meter in order to acquire this kind of advantage. Kabal has easily the best fatal blow too, which kind of reminds me of Superman's super in Injustice 1 except that Kabal's fatal blow is safe on block and can be reused after five seconds of cool down. In one of the matches that I posted yesterday, Sonic Fox timed out Semiij with 25 seconds or so remaining in the round. Semiij was so scared of the fatal blow that he barely even moved. LOL.



I am afraid to say that a handful of recent claims in this thread have been absurd. I encourage everybody to watch the streams of players who will travel and compete in this game for money. Also examine the frame data before you start comparing, contrasting, or even inventing your own numbers. All of this information is already available and in plain sight for those who are willing to do a little bit of research.

they both have full screen frame traps I agree Freddy has faster startup but disagree that they aren't similar in strength as skarlet has a slow moving projectile which creates frame traps at closer distances and opens up her projectiles. I even already pointed that her zoning is control based Once again though you completely commit yourself to the fallacy of the top players playstyles without objectively analyzing the characters tools. It's clear you don't have any vision nor did you really objectively analyze my post. I don't see how an adequate zoner can't understand the drastic difference in Kabal and skarlets zoning abilities. It's clear as day to me.

 

[Peckapowa]

Skarlet is nothing like Freddy. According to the frame data, all of Skarlet's projectiles have around 20 frames of start up, which is below average. On the other hand, Freddy's glove toss starts up in 15 frames. Hell spike starts up in 16 frames and launches. As far as normal attacks are concerned, Freddy has a safe 50/50 mix up with meter. Skarlet's name should not even be spoken in the same sentence as Freddy's if you are discussing zoning. I have seen what accomplished players like Semiij are doing in terms of zoning and nothing has particularly caught my attention. However, Semiij is playing the character properly. He has been beating everybody with Skarlet, including Sonic Fox until he picked Kabal.



I agree, which is why I stated "in the beta". Zoning aside, Kabal appears to be the better character at this moment. The aerial downward buzz saw is highly effective in the neutral. He has a couple of 50/50 mix ups with overhead strings and the low hook grab. He has a re-stand that is +6 on block. Skarlet has to use meter in order to acquire this kind of advantage. Kabal has easily the best fatal blow too, which kind of reminds me of Superman's super in Injustice 1 except that Kabal's fatal blow is safe on block and can be reused after five seconds of cool down. In one of the matches that I posted yesterday, Sonic Fox timed out Semiij with 25 seconds or so remaining in the round. Semiij was so scared of the fatal blow that he barely even moved. LOL.



I am afraid to say that a handful of recent claims in this thread have been absurd. I encourage everybody to watch the streams of players who will travel and compete in this game for money. Also examine the frame data before you start comparing, contrasting, or even inventing your own numbers. All of this information is already available and in plain sight for those who are willing to do a little bit of research.

Also Freddie's 50/50s are completely irrelevant to the discussion skarlets normals control space more adequately and supplement a zoning playstyles better. Hence why Freddie couldn't compete with smoke in the footsies game.

 

[podizzler3000]

any of you guys have conversions off of low spinner? im thinking of switching to low hook for the KB if i cant come up with something

 

[Professor Oak]

Low Hook is a must, IMO. Crushing blow is 27%.

 

[Cheesus]

I'm going to try to respond to lots of comments/questions above, I hope this helps.
- Kabal's air fb amplified makes him recovery quickly, use this when opp is trying to jump over them, recover quickly and do a d2 or combo off of a 4 or upward hook grab amplified

- Low spinner seems very weak, probably the worst equippable option, it would be nice if the fucker actually started with a low

- I think equipping a low move is mandatory. Pick low gear, or low hook because there are 3 overheads but no lows in his strings, so the opp. is just going to block high all day. Both low options are unsafe, amplified low gear is safe though.

- When playing against zoners, abuse air diagonal projectile, do it from a jump back, up, forward, do it early or late, jump and dont do it at all, mix in a quick hop to fake a jump, whiff a jump 2 then do the projectile, yes you can still do the move after a whiffed jump attack. If you get creative you can get a ton of mileage off of that one move. If they start trying to time a jump over it, then amplify as mentioned above.

- If jade glows alot to avoid all the shenanigans mentioned above, keep semi close and start jumping in more. The glow activation lasts forever, you will find full jump in combos, if she starts d2'ing you, go back to jump forward air projectile.

- Another thing about jade, her pokes have a ton of range, but her recovery isnt as good as Skarlet's, so try to whiff punish. Whiff punishing with a string isnt going to work because you're so far, but a b1 buffered into nomad is gona get you some good damage.

- Yet another thing about the Jade MU... since her pokes are long range, you have to remain far. During footsies people rarely crouch, so do a f3 which moves him quite far forward. Note that it is a high and kinda slow, but it gets you in and its +6 on block.

I hope some of this helps. Keep on....... Kaballin'

 

[roosTakk]

My super duper early probably wrong mu chart:
Skarlet 6-4
Jade 4-6
Baraka 5-5
Scorpion 5-5

Also Freddie's 50/50s are completely irrelevant to the discussion skarlets normals control space more adequately and supplement a zoning playstyles better. Hence why Freddie couldn't compete with smoke in the footsies game.

What platform are you nerds playing on

 

[dribirut]

What platform are you nerds playing on

Maybe we should have a 2011 reunion. I play on ps4 though. better competition

 

[Professor Oak]

Jump 2 is amazing

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

He has a couple of 50/50 mix ups with overhead strings and the low hook grab.

Both those lows are unsafe af. The spin low has two mids then a low and is not very fast making the low easy to block, wouldn't call that a mix option. The low grab just ends after grabbing, no combo not really sure why you are talking about close up negative moves when the topic is about zoning.

He has a re-stand that is +6 on block.

Yes he does but what he can safley follow up with it is only D1, D2, 111, 11, F22, 22, F224, F4, D3, D4.
For mix-up off the Restand (Extended Hook) all he has is two options the throw (LB) and an overhead(F224) this overhead doesn't lead to combo and one can be ducked and the other blocked. He is only able to use moves that are 12 frames or less after NOT his overheads that lead to combo like B12. Ohh and that OH F224 is 12 frames of startup so if you wanna do that after Restand you have to be frame perfect.
But yes he can restand into Throw which can be ducked and then teched.

His best space control tool is Nomad Dash by far then B12 in neutral and then his BF1 and yes his regular Buzzsaw in air but I'd argue his Sraight Buzzsaw(Air) is a better loadout for zoning since it makes him able to throw ground Buzzsaw faster.

I'm not saying he isn't good I'm saying we haven't had enough time to know if he is the best zoner.

I believe Jade is also a good zoner so is Scarlet. Look at the games between Dragon(Jade) and HoneyBee(Kabal)

 

[Professor Oak]

Both those lows are unsafe af. The spin low has two mids then a low and is not very fast making the low easy to block, wouldn't call that a mix option. The low grab just ends after grabbing, no combo not really sure why you are talking about close up negative moves when the topic is about zoning.


Yes he does but what he can safley do off it is only D1, D2, 111, 11, F22, 22, F224, F4, D3, D4.
For mix-up off the Restand (Extended Hook) all he has is two options the throw (LB) and an overhead(F224) one can be ducked and the other blocked. He is only able to use moves that are 12 frames or less after NOT his overheads that lead to combo like B12. Ohh and that OH F224 is 12 frames of startup so if you wanna do that after Restand you have to be frame perfect.
But yes he can restand into Throw which can be ducked and then teched.

His best space control tool is Nomad Dash by far then B12 in neutral and then his BF1 and yes his regular Buzzsaw in air but I'd argue his Sraight Buzzsaw(Air) is a better loadout for zoning since it makes him able to throw ground Buzzsaw faster.

I'm not saying he isn't good I'm saying we haven't had enough time to know if he is the best zoner.

Would Amplified low saw be worth having for safe mixups in your opinion? Currently running Low hook, ext hook, and hook grab and Ive been doing pretty well.

 

[Peckapowa]

Maybe we should have a 2011 reunion. I play on ps4 though. better competition

Xbox

 

[REYTHEGREAT]

I need to play against a good Jade more. I got bodied last night by a jade player. It was mostly in the neutral game.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Would Amplified low saw be worth having for safe mixups in your opinion? Currently running Low hook, ext hook, and hook grab and Ive been doing pretty well.

The low Buzzsaw projectile I think has it's application but I don't think it's safe for mix-ups. I use air straight Buzzsaw instead since I get faster zoning and my air Buzzsaw leads to full screen combo.

Up close that projectile is unsafe and very punishable the Amplified Rolling Buzzsaw is -9 on block so most highs are 7f and can punish for full combo.