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MK1 Tier List Discussion Thread

Amplified$hotz

Done with MK1. Stop supporting a scam company
This is my kameo tier list. It’s in no particular order.
Tremor is on A tier. Motaro potential S+21309
 
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M2Dave

Zoning Master
In order to compile a compile a kameo tier list, you have to analyze a sample of (roughly) the top 20 characters and their ideal kameos.

Ashrah - Sareena/Motaro
Baraka - Stryker
Cage - Kung Lao/Motaro/Sonya
General Shao - Kung Lao/Motaro
Geras - Kung Lao
Kenshi - Sub Zero/Frost/Cyrax
Kitana - Kung Lao/Jax
Kung Lao - Goro/Kung Lao
Li Mei - Scorpion/Kung Lao
Liu Kang - Kung Lao/Motaro/Stryker
Mileena - Kung Lao/Scorpion
Omni-Man - Kung Lao/Stryker
Reiko - Tremor/Stryker
Smoke - Sub Zero/Sareena/Stryker
Raiden - Kano/Goro
Rain - Sub Zero/Stryker
Scorpion - Stryker
Shang Tsung - Kung Lao/Goro/Sareena
Sindel - Kung Lao
Tanya - Goro

Interpret this information however you like, but there is no evidence to suggest that Kung Lao does not remain the best kameo in the game, Sub Zero is superior to Stryker, Sektor is better than Goro, Sonya is the worst, etc.
 
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Fractured_Shadow

Really likes to throw things at you.
In order to compile a compile a kameo tier list, you have to analyze a sample of (roughly) the top 20 characters and their ideal kameos.

Ashrah - Sareena/Motaro
Baraka - Stryker
Cage - Kung Lao/Motaro/Sonya
General Shao - Kung Lao/Motaro
Geras - Kung Lao
Kenshi - Sub Zero/Frost/Cyrax
Kitana - Kung Lao/Jax
Kung Lao - Goro/Kung Lao
Li Mei - Scorpion/Kung Lao
Liu Kang - Kung Lao/Motaro/Stryker
Mileena - Kung Lao/Scorpion
Omni-Man - Kung Lao/Stryker
Reiko - Tremor/Stryker
Smoke - Sub Zero/Sareena/Stryker
Raiden - Kano/Goro
Rain - Sub Zero/Stryker
Scorpion - Stryker
Shang Tsung - Kung Lao/Goro/Sareena
Sindel - Kung Lao
Tanya - Goro

Interpret this information however you like, but there is no evidence to suggest that Kung Lao does not remain the best kameo in the game, Sub Zero is superior to Stryker, Sektor is better than Goro, Sonya is the worst, etc.
I think a better option is WHY the kameo is ideal. Simply listing the best pairings leaves out a lot. For example, Goro gives characters meterless launchers and a saftey net that turns punishable moves into plus frames. Lao grants characters a vortex. Ect ect.

It's the utility they bring that should be ranked, not simply who the best pair with
 

Fractured_Shadow

Really likes to throw things at you.
Kung lao easily without a doubt the best in the game..
I agree. I almost never call for nerfs, and am instead on the buff everyone else train. For example I thought (and still think) pre-nerf Cyrax was just fine, but Lao needs to be reworked. Mainly, the timer for held Lowhat needs to be extended. The utility it brings for the recharge timer it has is too powerful. I don't want anything about Lao to change, just more of a cool down.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
I think a better option is WHY the kameo is ideal. Simply listing the best pairings leaves out a lot. For example, Goro gives characters meterless launchers and a saftey net that turns punishable moves into plus frames. Lao grants characters a vortex. Ect ect.

It's the utility they bring that should be ranked, not simply who the best pair with
I suppose that I could edit my post. However, considering there is an online tournament for this game almost every day, people who wish to engage in this conversation should already know the reasons why certain kameos are paired with certain characters.

Mainly, the timer for held Lowhat needs to be extended. The utility it brings for the recharge timer it has is too powerful. I don't want anything about Lao to change, just more of a cool down.
If you nerf low hat, you nerf one fourth of the roster, some of whom are not necessarily top tier (i.e., Kitana and Omni-Man).

NRS did a solid job with the most recent patch so they should continue buffing.
 

Fractured_Shadow

Really likes to throw things at you.
If you nerf low hat, you nerf one fourth of the roster, some of whom are not necessarily top tier (i.e., Kitana and Omni-Man).

NRS did a solid job with the most recent patch so they should continue buffing.
You're not nerfing 1/4 of the roster by reducing the amount of times that a vortex can be utilized in a single set, that's an exaggeration. Additionally, I'm not calling for a nerf, persay, just the amount that somthing as powerful as a SAFE vortex can be used.

What I was alluding to earlier is Kameos, when stripped down, are simply character modifiers i.e utility.

Let's look at Goro. He offers and ambush that is plus on block as well as a launcher. This is powerful. To balance this power he had a considerable repawn timer.

Now let's look at Lao. With one move he offers a good zoning tool in a low projectile that can also be used at the end of strings to make them - 3 vs whatever they were originally, a votrex tool which is INCREDIBLY powerful, as well as a get in for free tool for characters like Cage. Overall this is an extremely powerful move and one you could make a case for being more powerful than an ambush move. The issue I have is on top of the great utility it provides, it also has a ludicrously short cool down timer. This isn't even taking into consideration that he makes Kang get a full combo in his strike/throw setups...

If we look at a counter part to Lao in Motaro you can see where NRS was going. Tailshot is +3 on block and provides excellent string cancels into plus frames. To balance this Motaro has lower health and doesn't offer a true ambush to make negative moves safe such as Goro. Also his tailshot doesn't allow auto pressure and a vortex. This is good balance.

There would need to be some SERIOUS buffs to the kameos to compete with what Lao currently brings to the table. To start, un-nerfing Cyrax would be good...
 
Additional nerfs is definitely not what the game needs. Low hat is fine where it is. Buffing other kameos is the way to go.. Nerfing low hat would undoubtedly indirectly nerf a good chunk of the cast.

imo if there is something that is broken, the tool the character has that enables the broken mechanic should be the thing tweaked; not the kameo. With that being said, I can’t think of a single mechanic or strategy that needs nerfing right now. We need buffs to the lower tier characters.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
To start, un-nerfing Cyrax would be good...
Nerfing Cyrax was the right decision. The results at ECT spoke for themselves.

Given the current version of the attack, the question is, can Cyrax's kopter chopper ever be balanced properly?

Thus far, the answer appears to be no. An ambush that hits multiple times and makes every string and many special moves, including some armor moves, safe on block, if not advantageous, outclasses and invalidates all other kameo attacks excluding low hat. Again, the results at ECT spoke for themselves.

We need buffs to the lower tier characters.
I agree. The most recent patch has provided some solid buffs for most of the kameos. The next step is to buff the characters.

While the vast majority of characters find themselves in a good place, I would like to see a couple of significant buffs for characters like Quan Chi, Rain, Reptile, Scorpion, and Sub Zero.
 

rifraf

Noob
Thus far, the answer appears to be no. An ambush that hits multiple times and makes every string and many special moves, including some armor moves, safe on block, if not advantageous, outclasses and invalidates all other kameo attacks excluding low hat.
If they intend on releasing expansions, then they should be ready to rework specific aspects of chracters/kameos that don't work. Tweaking numbers just won't cut it in some occasions. If a move needs to be replaced with something else, so be it. They should allocate their budget for this kind of stuff imo.
 
Nerfing Cyrax was the right decision. The results at ECT spoke for themselves.

Given the current version of the attack, the question is, can Cyrax's kopter chopper ever be balanced properly?

Thus far, the answer appears to be no. An ambush that hits multiple times and makes every string and many special moves, including some armor moves, safe on block, if not advantageous, outclasses and invalidates all other kameo attacks excluding low hat. Again, the results at ECT spoke for themselves.



I agree. The most recent patch has provided some solid buffs for most of the kameos. The next step is to buff the characters.

While the vast majority of characters find themselves in a good place, I would like to see a couple of significant buffs for characters like Quan Chi, Rain, Reptile, Scorpion, and Sub Zero.
I actually think they did the right thing with forward copter, and the way to "balance" it is to just tweak the rest of his kit if needed. He's still the only kameo that can give a combo on forward throw, up copter is legit good, net got way better, and there are legit bomb setups (although it is a weird move and could maybe use more love).

Having forward copter in the back pocket, somewhat a kind to a fatal blow, to help secure a round I think is the right way to do it. The bigger issue is that he's just weak enough that you'd probably rather use lao/stryker than bother with the nuance of trying to get cyrax to fill the gaps.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Nerfing Cyrax was the right decision. The results at ECT spoke for themselves.

Given the current version of the attack, the question is, can Cyrax's kopter chopper ever be balanced properly?

Thus far, the answer appears to be no. An ambush that hits multiple times and makes every string and many special moves, including some armor moves, safe on block, if not advantageous, outclasses and invalidates all other kameo attacks excluding low hat. Again, the results at ECT spoke for themselves.
I still believe my solution would be perfectly fine. Which would be making Kopter Chopper cost 75% Kameo meter.

UNLESS the Kameo meter is designed to be essentially 2 bars like the regular meter system has 3 bars, and you can only make a Kameo move cost 1 bar (aka 50%) or 2 bars (aka 100%). If that’s the case, I wonder how difficult it’d be to redesign the Kameo meter system in a patch to be technically 4 bars, that way you can balance Kameo moves to only cost 1 bar (25%), 2 bars (50%), 3 bars (75%), or 4 bars (100%).
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
I still believe my solution would be perfectly fine. Which would be making Kopter Chopper cost 75% Kameo meter.

UNLESS the Kameo meter is designed to be essentially 2 bars like the regular meter system has 3 bars, and you can only make a Kameo move cost 1 bar (aka 50%) or 2 bars (aka 100%). If that’s the case, I wonder how difficult it’d be to redesign the Kameo meter system in a patch to be technically 4 bars, that way you can balance Kameo moves to only cost 1 bar (25%), 2 bars (50%), 3 bars (75%), or 4 bars (100%).
I am no software engineer, but I am somewhat aware that certain aspects of a video game are hard-coded and thus impossible to change unless you redesign the source code of the program (i.e., the game). While technically feasible, your suggestion for the kameo meter system is unlikely to be implemented as NRS is not going to change the format of the game in order to balance a single move.

By the way...

New year! New tier list!

S+ Sindel, Cage, Kenshi, Raiden, Liu Kang, Ashrah

S Reiko, Geras, Baraka, Mileena, Kung Lao, Smoke

A+ Kitana, Tanya, Omni-Man, General Shao, Li Mei

A- Shang Tsung, Rain, Scorpion, Havik, Reptile, Nitara

B Sub Zero, Quan Chi
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
I am no software engineer, but I am somewhat aware that certain aspects of a video game are hard-coded and thus impossible to change unless you redesign the source code of the program (i.e., the game). While technically feasible, your suggestion for the kameo meter system is unlikely to be implemented as NRS is not going to change the format of the game in order to balance a single move.
Well that’s why I bolded and capitalized “unless”, lol. I was saying that we don’t really know how the Kameo meter system is designed. Unless they’ve mentioned it somewhere and I just haven’t seen it. So it could just not be possible to have Kameo moves cost anything other than, as I said, 50% or 100%.

Also, it wouldn’t be just for Cyrax’s Kopter Chopper. They could rebalance a lot of Kameos IF it was possible to make the Kameo moves cost 25% and 75% as well. But if it’s not currently possible, and also not possible to implement, than so be it. Just wish there was a bit more communication by NRS in general, but also some more in depth info about these things would be helpful.


New year! New tier list!

S+ Sindel, Cage, Kenshi, Raiden, Liu Kang, Ashrah

S Reiko, Geras, Baraka, Mileena, Kung Lao, Smoke

A+ Kitana, Tanya, Omni-Man, General Shao, Li Mei

A- Shang Tsung, Rain, Scorpion, Havik, Reptile, Nitara

B Sub Zero, Quan Chi
I agree with this list. But I think I’d put Ashrah in front of Raiden. And as a Scorpion main, I don’t mind the Scorpion placement. He’s not a great character by any means but he is at least “good”. That said, right now most players aren’t aware that there are ways to punish his chain spin + Stryker bombs. Once more people figure that out and start doing it more and more, he’ll become a bit weaker. Personally, I’ve been trying out Motaro, Goro and Kameo Scorpion instead of Stryker.

As for Quan Chi, he does seem fairly weak. Even though he has some decent setups and okayish zoning, he definitely needs help.
 

NHDR

Noob
I haven't played the game since Quan dropped, what makes him so weak? I've seen a lot of videos and posts around the internet claiming he's easily the worst character. I don't care for the character but I'm curious all the same.
 

Fractured_Shadow

Really likes to throw things at you.
I haven't played the game since Quan dropped, what makes him so weak? I've seen a lot of videos and posts around the internet claiming he's easily the worst character. I don't care for the character but I'm curious all the same.
Absolutely dogwater normals, worst pokes in the game, worse armor in the game, gaps, 900 health, and getting mauled by the entire S+ tier pretty much sum it up
 

Arqwart

D'Vorah for KP2 copium
Absolutely dogwater normals, worst pokes in the game, worse armor in the game, gaps, 900 health, and getting mauled by the entire S+ tier pretty much sum it up
Added bonus: he's, at most, only above average at zoning. Sindel, Shang, Reiko, Liu and Kitana can all do comparable zoning (especially with Lao Kameo). They REALLY pulled their punches with Quan as if they were terrified of him being wack.

At the very least, it's much MUCH better to have an under-performing DLC release that they buff over time than have some monstrous, pay-to-win powerhouse. I'll take this Quan's release state over something like MK9 Kenshi, MKX Tanya, or MK11 Joker.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
And as a Scorpion main, I don’t mind the Scorpion placement. He’s not a great character by any means but he is at least “good”.
I am aware that I placed Scorpion a little bit higher than most players. He has a couple of decent tools such as standing 2, chain spin, and instant aerial EX teleport that prevent him from being trash.

Although the gameplan is simplistic and unlikely to evolve any further, Javier has been successful in offline and online tournaments, even against some of the best European players.

The characters that I have listed in A- and B could benefit from a couple of buffs.

Scorpion should at least have a safe mid follow up after f+3. Something similar to Omni-Man's b+1,2 in terms of use and functionality.
 

ReD WolF

Lord of the Drip
I am no software engineer, but I am somewhat aware that certain aspects of a video game are hard-coded and thus impossible to change unless you redesign the source code of the program (i.e., the game). While technically feasible, your suggestion for the kameo meter system is unlikely to be implemented as NRS is not going to change the format of the game in order to balance a single move.

By the way...

New year! New tier list!

S+ Sindel, Cage, Kenshi, Raiden, Liu Kang, Ashrah

S Reiko, Geras, Baraka, Mileena, Kung Lao, Smoke

A+ Kitana, Tanya, Omni-Man, General Shao, Li Mei

A- Shang Tsung, Rain, Scorpion, Havik, Reptile, Nitara

B Sub Zero, Quan Chi

I like your placement of Liu Kang. He was always on the cusp of being top tier IMO, but I never thought he was quite inline with the other S+ tier characters. This is debatable of course, but after watching COTR and labbing with him myself, I have realized he's ridiculous. He's got one of the best if not THE best strike/throw mix-up in the game on top of great (by this game's standards) full screen zoning.
 

Fatality o

Cigretts PSN
Top teams right now? IMO (not ordered):

S tier
Raiden/Kano
Baraka/Stryker
Ashrah/Sareena
Johnny/Lao
Liu/Lao
Kenshi/SubZero
Sindel/Lao


A+ tier
Reiko/Tremor
Johnny/Goro,Kano,Stryker
Mileena/Lao
General Shao/Lao
Smoke/?matchups
(Is there a concise #1 kameo?)
Geras/Lao
Rain/SubZero
Kung Lao/Goro
Tanya/Goro
Omni Man/Lao


A tier
Li Mei/Scorpion
Havik/Stryker
Kitana/Lao?
Shang/Sareena?
Reptile/Stryker or Scorpion?
 
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Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
My Quan Chi patch tier list:

S Cage, Kenshi, Ashrah, Sindel, Raiden

A+ Liu Kang, Geras, Kung Lao, Kitana, Mileena

A Li Mei, Tanya, Reiko, Baraka, Smoke

A- Omni-Man, General Shao, Havik, Shang Tsung, Scorpion

B Reptile, Nitara, Rain, Sub Zero

C Quan Chi


I’d be interested to hear what others have to say and I’m happy to explain any placements.
 
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Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
My Quan Chi patch tier list:

S Cage, Kenshi, Ashrah, Sindel, Raiden

A+ Liu Kang, Geras, Kung Lao, Kitana, Mileena

A Li Mei, Tanya, Reiko, Baraka, Smoke

A- Omni-Man, General Shao, Havik, Shang Tsung, Scorpion

B Reptile, Nitara, Rain, Sub Zero

C Quan Chi


I’d be interested to hear what others have to say and I’m happy to explain any placements.
Overall your list is quite solid, however I am curious as to why place Mileena and Kitana on the same tier? IMO Mileena is just a tiny bit better than Kitana, but enough so that it would put her in another tier.
 

Fatality o

Cigretts PSN
not really a consensus on kameo yet but smoke isnt A+ with any kameo please place him down below in mid tier thanks
A+ is pretty much mid tier, you find him not as good as Reiko, Mileena, general shao? He’s been top 8 in a lot of online and a few offline tourneys. He has pretty sick mental mix and potentially 50% dmg off a hit with certain kameos. 50/50 with frost how is he not better then havik, reptile
 

Fatality o

Cigretts PSN
My Quan Chi patch tier list:

S Cage, Kenshi, Ashrah, Sindel, Raiden

A+ Liu Kang, Geras, Kung Lao, Kitana, Mileena

A Li Mei, Tanya, Reiko, Baraka, Smoke

A- Omni-Man, General Shao, Havik, Shang Tsung, Scorpion

B Reptile, Nitara, Rain, Sub Zero

C Quan Chi


I’d be interested to hear what others have to say and I’m happy to explain any placements.
Baraka, Rain, Shao too low. Li mei too high tbh and Omni man might be too low. Character has some bs hard to blockables with Lao compared to Havik.