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MK1 Tier List Discussion Thread

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
So I heard you fools liked tier lists...


Had a decently long response, but eh… no one cares, lol. Both lists are agreeable, and my personal list is very close to Xombat’s.

Not sure why Tom has Shao so low, or KL so high. I didn’t watch the videos for any explanations, just wanted to see what their tier lists looked like. Anyway, here’s my current updated list as well


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or this one, which is pretty much the same, just with Shao being at the top of A+ instead of bottom of S, and Havik being at the top of A- instead of bottom of A

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Now that I'm posting this, I'd even move Quan down a tier. But here's my current opinion on game balance. How's everyone else feeling?

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Amplified$hotz

Done with MK1. Stop supporting a scam company
Quan Chi is the worst character in the game in my opinion. There is no absolutely no chance that he is in the same tier as characters like Baraka, Mileena, Omni-Man, and Reiko. I will save my rant for the podcast tonight. In the meantime, check out the video below.

On the podcast can you talk about the online pro komp being PS5 only. And competitive PC and Xbox players not getting that information before release and having to just hold that. NRS need to be held accountable for stuff like that.

I know they don’t care much about the competitive scene, but WB/NRS makes being a competitor more stressful and frankly not worth it more than street fighter and tekken do.

-Big updates before big tournaments
-Not making MK a legacy game
-Announcing pro tour two weeks before the first major
-Poor online experience
-Questionable game balance decisions and the blatant favoritism of certain play styles over others
-Glitches that literally affect the competitive integrity of the game like that corner side switch glitch I’ve seen cost someone a round in tournament
-Not letting us contribute to the pot bonus like in MKX
-Small pot in general

These decisions alone aren’t even my issue. It’s the decisions + the lack of communication that has made this probably the last NRS game I play seriously. And it’s definitely the last I preorder.

Again I know maybe it’s WB but maybe if the scene demands something we’ll get our voices heard. Game is still fun though.
 
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Quan Chi is the worst character in the game in my opinion. There is no absolutely no chance that he is in the same tier as characters like Baraka, Mileena, Omni-Man, and Reiko. I will save my rant for the podcast tonight. In the meantime, check out the video below.

I find the video a little weird.

I've played feast or famine characters in most fighting games(ST dictator being the worst probably), and feel like i've seen a ton with just absolutely trash frame data or lacking basic tools, but it's offset by something gross.

These characters, usually, suck. There's some exceptions, but in general people don't want something like peacock to exist.

Still, I feel like maybe i'm missing something, because doesn't quan have a meterless launcher off his (admittedly awful) jab string, and at least one more? Yeah the "good" launcher is 2 bars, but clearly quan is supposed to "setup" and then be busted.

Now don't get me wrong, as someone who's trying to main sub and quan, I have very little faith in NRS executing ANY unique strategy in an effective manner. And i'm not saying "oh you're playing him wrong" or anything because he sure seems like trash, but like....it seems obvious to me what the intent is and where the failures are.
 

chrisisnice

I'm a lover, not a fighter
I think occasionally there are characters who they are overly careful with becasue they have the ability to dominate casuals (the vast majority of people). They usually nerf characters with moves which can be spammed on a casual to get an easy win.. I could see straight away that Quan was in that category, so they were probably overly cautious with him so that people do not drop the game.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
I think occasionally there are characters who they are overly careful with becasue they have the ability to dominate casuals (the vast majority of people). They usually nerf characters with moves which can be spammed on a casual to get an easy win.. I could see straight away that Quan was in that category, so they were probably overly cautious with him so that people do not drop the game.
I agree with your premise, but I would go even further and state that NRS does not want zoning to be strong at any level.

Compare Quan Chi to Omni-Man, whose simplistic gameplan and knowledge checks dominated Kombat League for the first two weeks after release.

MightyUnJust, if I recall correctly, even won a semi-stacked online tournament with his day two Omni-Man. LOL.

Quan Chi's zoning functions as intended and can even be effective, but the aforementioned safe guards are excessive. Low health. 9F d+1 that is -10 on block. Slowest armor attack in the game. Two bar launcher. Horrendous strings.

Does NRS think that Quan Chi zones like Freddy or Zod to deserve these weaknesses? LOL. Absurd.
 

rifraf

Noob
Does NRS think that Quan Chi zones like Freddy
I actually chuckled reading this. I can't talk much about Quan Cheese but Freddy was a monster.

From a strictly zoning perspective, I understand your frustration with Quan. On paper, he should be a zoning beast. His tools clearly indicate that. The safe guards are there. I don't really understand why. I'm aware of the narrative that NRS is afraid of committing to such archetypes which may be true, but I don't know if that's the reason. Maybe they're trying new things in terms of character design. This is a team known for how notorious they are in terms of trying new things and breaking the mold over and over again.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts :)
 
On the podcast can you talk about the online pro komp being PS5 only. And competitive PC and Xbox players not getting that information before release and having to just hold that. NRS need to be held accountable for stuff like that.
Hasn't that always been the case though, especially for the Pro Kompetition? Xbox was never included before, and I want to say PC wasn't either. It was always PlayStation (and I want to say Mortal Kombat 11 Ultimate was restricted to base PlayStation 4/PlayStation 4 Slim, not the Pro or 5), even when the PlayStation 4 version of the game was not the best one.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
MightyUnJust, if I recall correctly, even won a semi-stacked online tournament with his day two Omni-Man. LOL.
It was a local, the first day anyone had seen Omni man, and no one else on his level was in the bracket. Since then he basically dropped Omni Man and no one's won anything with the character.

Omni man is definitely a solid character, but this is really, really reaching.
 

Amplified$hotz

Done with MK1. Stop supporting a scam company
Hasn't that always been the case though, especially for the Pro Kompetition? Xbox was never included before, and I want to say PC wasn't either. It was always PlayStation (and I want to say Mortal Kombat 11 Ultimate was restricted to base PlayStation 4/PlayStation 4 Slim, not the Pro or 5), even when the PlayStation 4 version of the game was not the best one.
Yeah you have a point it’s their fault for putting hope in NRS to not split the player base.

But this game was expected to launch with krossplay. I don’t know if MK11 launched with krossplay. People assumed they would allow everyone on all platforms to compete. But yes it was a misinformed assumption.
 

Fractured_Shadow

Really likes to throw things at you.
Is it safe to say that Quan has some of the only 3-7 MUs in the game right now? I honestly feel like Cage and Raiden are 3-7 for him and those MUs almost automatically make him one of the worst characters in the game
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Is it safe to say that Quan has some of the only 3-7 MUs in the game right now? I honestly feel like Cage and Raiden are 3-7 for him and those MUs almost automatically make him one of the worst characters in the game
I am not sure what the numbers are, but I agree that Cage and Raiden are very difficult match ups.

Kenshi is probably as well for similar reasons.

So is Mileena because she is risky to zone. She can also crouch standing 4 and punish anywhere on the screen with teleport.

Ashrah/Motaro is also toxic. LOL. Hear me out.

Ashrah/Sareena can be zoned in certain match ups, but Ashrah/Motaro cannot be because of the reflect. which is very useful against Quan Chi.

f+4, 2,2, f+2, 1,2, etc. all jail into tail shot for a whopping +13 on block. Obviously, Quan Chi is going to have a really hard time dealing with that kind of pressure, especially when he is cornered.
 
But this game was expected to launch with krossplay. I don’t know if MK11 launched with krossplay. People assumed they would allow everyone on all platforms to compete. But yes it was a misinformed assumption.
It was expected to, but I don't believe that was ever officially announced.

Mortal Kombat 11 did not launch with Krossplay, and when it was implimented in a beta phase, it was between PlayStation and Xbox only. Current generation consoles were added, but play between them was buggy, and finally, play between the Xbox version and PC - Microsoft Store version was added.

As of this typing, Krossplay for Mortal Kombat 11 Ultimate is still in beta.
 
Okay I did some digging and on why Sub Zero was nerfed after Beta, it wasn't just Casuals complaining, literally the best players in the world had very bad takes. Ninjakilla vs Xombats and ninja was hard core complaining saying clone was dumb and that multiple moves needed to be removed (Clone and Clone Push) being two of them, His "Mid was too fast", "Clone is stupid and has to go"
Meanwhile they knew they could punish Clone with a bar easy. He wanted to punish clone meterlessly then!?
Also complaining about his Damage
Literally everything they nerfed on Sub was complained about by Ninjakilla in this video.

Here's the video, I know @M2Dave and TomBrady want to see this:
 
Okay I did some digging and on why Sub Zero was nerfed after Beta, it wasn't just Casuals complaining, literally the best players in the world had very bad takes. Ninjakilla vs Xombats and ninja was hard core complaining saying clone was dumb and that multiple moves needed to be removed (Clone and Clone Push) being two of them, His "Mid was too fast", "Clone is stupid and has to go"
Meanwhile they knew they could punish Clone with a bar easy. He wanted to punish clone meterlessly then!?
Also complaining about his Damage
Literally everything they nerfed on Sub was complained about by Ninjakilla in this video.

Here's the video, I know @M2Dave and TomBrady want to see this:
and at the same time he was saying how liu kang was too honest and how its not worth playing him hahah,and like clockwork kang was untouched.He has incredible zoning,zero execution needed for combos,ridiculouse high damage,great and oppresive frames with great stagger pressure,that is insanely complimented with combo after throw with kung lao and motaro.

This is a clear cut example of top players controlling the narrative and rigging the meta,and nrs seemes to listen to some more then others.
 
and at the same time he was saying how liu kang was too honest and how its not worth playing him hahah,and like clockwork kang was untouched.He has incredible zoning,zero execution needed for combos,ridiculouse high damage,great and oppresive frames with great stagger pressure,that is insanely complimented with combo after throw with kung lao and motaro.

This is a clear cut example of top players controlling the narrative and rigging the meta,and nrs seemes to listen to some more then others.
I believe Ninjakilla absolutely has the ears of NRS but 100% there was many casuals complaining about Sub Zero as well. But this video literally shows that everything Sub got nerfed was verbatim complained about by Ninjakilla.

There's examples of some of these top pro players being hypocritical. Like I remember Dragon was mad when Cyrax was nerfed and pleaded with NRS to revert changes and to only make Forward Helicopter knock opponent down if it hit them while airborne but would still be 1Bar and no extra cooldown (basically Prepatch but without the ability to launch of Rains Armored Geysers) that Sonic used against him.
Literally just a few days later Dragon was crying about Stryker Nades. I'm like your completely fine with Cyrax who has zero counterplay and is a 1 button OS that frametraps but your mad about a grenade that works well with less characters, is counterable and doesn't cover gaps while making end of strings/move safe at same time?
Cyrax also did so much more than Stryker does there was Up Kopter with crazy throw combos and HTB Vortex setups with crazy damage, there are legit scary bomb setups but no one even tried them cuz Forward Kopter was a 1 button OS who needed anything else. Cyrax Forward Throw was also a great launcher and Net was pretty good back then as well for certain characters.

But on the other hand I've seen Top Players like Xombat and Rewind and Sonic pleas with NRS not to nerf characters or Kameos because it will directly effect mid to lower tiers and that instead needed to buff Kameos then characters. Looks like NRS listened to them but did listen to the casual crowd and that's why Johnny got a few hits.

But like I've said before, NRS has always had a "selective balancing" strategy.
Johnny, Kenshi, Raiden, Ashrah and Sindel have everything they need base + crazy dirt and they nerfed Sub Zero all because something he did was annoying to a rushdown player? Literally everything the Top 5 does is annoying and they all 2X the character Sub Was in the beta!
StormCell, plus frames, StormCell, plusframes, StormCell, PLUS FRAMES
or Kenshi 15 seconds of frame trap chip with potential 50/50's
Johnny plus frames into 9f MID and 6f D1
 
I think the jury is maybe still out on quan. He's almost certainly mid or lower, but he does strike me as complex enough there could be tech. Granted if I were better I'd say he's mostly a knowledge check who's not making top 8.

Annnnd related to that, I still think it's weird seeing Sub anywhere but "can't win a tournament" tier. They made his core bnb easier, which was super nice, and they made his clone "better" but still unusable vs anyone who knows how to punish it on reaction. His tool kit basically didn't change except for when he's fighting you and you have no meter to instantly punish his clone.
 
think the jury is maybe still out on quan. He's almost certainly mid or lower, but he does strike me as complex enough there could be tech. Granted if I were better I'd say he's mostly a knowledge check who's not making top 8.
I'll make a hot take, normally I wait for months B4 making assumptions on tier placements but Quan is special.
He lacks the basic fundamentals to take your turn back, so if your opponent is competent in the matchup and halfway skilled, you are not keeping them out the whole match which is needed vs S Tiers. There are so many F Neutral tools that it's damn near impossible to use zoning alone.
Has good setplay but his mix is fuzzyable. His D1 being 9f is laughable, his S1 is 8f and that means he can't even punish or take his turn vs -7 and -8 moves which is a big deal. Not being able to get the poke out to jail into his also slow jab string is not bueno

He's undeniably low mid tier. Not sure if there is tech that can save him without a overhaul on his pokes.

Annnnd related to that, I still think it's weird seeing Sub anywhere but "can't win a tournament" tier. They made his core bnb easier, which was super nice, and they made his clone "better" but still unusable vs anyone who knows how to punish it on reaction. His tool kit basically didn't change except for when he's fighting you and you have no meter to instantly punish his clone.
Sub struggles in two main areas, a slower mid, and not being able to safely jail from pokes into 12/21 since every string has gaps but F12 which is -7 and punishable by 3 characters and a turn ender into guess vs top tiers.

The second area is everything he does is very punishable:
• divekick is punishable on reaction with UpBlock and backdash wiff punish -21
• slide can't go under most high projectiles because of the force stand for first 3-5 frames
• Clone meterless/1BAR 1 Clone/1BAR 3 Clone/2BAR 3 Clone versions are punishable on reaction by 95% of roster
• Clone Push projectile is punishable by jump in
• Ice Ball is trash 39f startup...

But most importantly he's high risk, low to medium reward on everything. He has to take unfavorable risks to do anything. His HTBs are UpBlock Guardable if overhead first stopping pressure or if low first delay wakeup punishable. Sindel and others are completely safe doing their HTB Vortex and the JIP version is Anti Air punished for no meter.

This is one of the reasons it disgusts me that a player like Ninjakilla was complaining about having to spend a bar with Liu Kang to punish clone a year later, on reaction. While Liu has one of the strongest kits in the game and multiple ways to break clone meterlessly into fly kick and he has meterless punish on clone as well.
Imagine complaining about a tool that stops you from mashing Rushdown mix for 2.5 seconds while Kenshi has you locked down in frametrap for 13+ seconds with time to refresh 15Second timer. Or StormCell Plus frames loop