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General/Other - Mileena Mileena's True Tier Placement

PND_Ketchup

"More deadly than the dawn"
I wish I didn't play Mileena since launch so I could come in and say I TOLD YOU PIERCING WAS THE BEST VARIATION!

(On launch she had no options other than yolo roll to get out of pressure in ANY variation)
(Her B12 was negative a fuck ton on launch)
(She couldn't combo off air sais)
(Her F12 whiffed on a third of the cast)
(her low sai was +1 or 2 on hit granting no follow up options other than yolo roll)
(Her telekick was NEGATIVE on hit)
(her fastest poke was 9f and it also had a wonky hitbox)
(Ethereal had no use at all, ex fades were not able to combo)
(Ravenous at one point was considered her best. Think about that)



Those are the major issues this character at one point had. Can you really blame anyone in the Mileena community for asking for buffs?
She was a shitter at launch and has slowly been creeping up due to FIXES and polishing. The fact that the higher tiers got knocked down a peg
and how fundamental orientated the character is, it's no surprise to see her rise. She is really really good right now, but don't think that Foxy isn't also a big reason why she looks so god damn good. He could make a turd look like gold.
We were talking about September onwards. Not launch.
 

Jolt

Uprise
Use the correct term: PIERCING doesn't have....
6. ex low sai is safe
7. that's your problem, not hers
Not sure I'd consider EX Low sai safe if there's still a reactable gap. Sure, people aren't currently using it, but it's there isn't it?
We were talking about September onwards. Not launch.
I think in September, the consensus of the Mileena community (with a few exceptions) was:

She was good, but since so many of the top tiers had things that bordered on broken, she was held back. She was "too fair" as if that should have ever been a thing. Even now, she doesn't have anything that borders on broken, she's just a jack of all trades. Players still have to make micro reads, etc.

If the top tiers got toned down (and they did) that alone would have moved her up , but the *universal* poke buffs also helped her.

So her being top tier now still has a lot to do with shifting of the entire roster and less about how good she was in September IMO
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
We were talking about September onwards. Not launch.
Granted, but even from September until the recent patch...

She Had:

No poke faster than 9f
Low Sai's were +1/2 on hit giving no guaranteed pressure options except yolo roll
Horrible recovery on instant air sais to the point that they were barely useable.
f12 whiffing on a third of the cast in piercing
B12 was +2 (this was nerfed)

She wasn't bad, but if they didn't buff her pokes along with most of the cast where would she be now?

They nerfed the meter gain in the game, so they gave her better tools to build meter. (The sais)

I think you are one of the smartest players in this game and I don't want to go toe to toe with you in game knowledge because lbsh, it's a no contest, but I think it's silly to say that the version of Mileena before this patch and the one after should be even remotely comparable.

Was pre patch mileena good? Yes. Was she considered the best in the game at any point? Fuck no.

We are now looking at two entirely different sexy pink vixens.
 

PND_Ketchup

"More deadly than the dawn"
Granted, but even from September until the recent patch...

She Had:

No poke faster than 9f
Low Sai's were +1/2 on hit giving no guaranteed pressure options except yolo roll
Horrible recovery on instant air sais to the point that they were barely useable.
f12 whiffing on a third of the cast in piercing
B12 was +2 (this was nerfed)

She wasn't bad, but if they didn't buff her pokes along with most of the cast where would she be now?

They nerfed the meter gain in the game, so they gave her better tools to build meter. (The sais)

I think you are one of the smartest players in this game and I don't want to go toe to toe with you in game knowledge because lbsh, it's a no contest, but I think it's silly to say that the version of Mileena before this patch and the one after should be even remotely comparable.

Was pre patch mileena good? Yes. Was she considered the best in the game at any point? Fuck no.

We are now looking at two entirely different sexy pink vixens.
At no point did we ever say pre patch Mileena was the best in the game, we merely suggested the question of "Is Mileena better than people say she is if you just play her differently".

If people want to put words in my mouth they can, it's whatever.
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
At no point did we ever say pre patch Mileena was the best in the game, we merely suggested the question of "Is Mileena better than people say she is if you just play her differently".

If people want to put words in my mouth they can, it's whatever.
I appologize, that was not my intention, but when you come in here with a snide remark about how you asked that question BEFORE the patch and imply it somehow holds relevance now it just doesn't sit right.

The point I was trying to make with the best in the game remark was not that you guys said it, but that she is being questioned in that position now, where as before she was no where close to earning that sort of consideration. This further bolsters my point that we are talking about two very different characters now and it's simply unfair to imply that the Mileena community was using a character that could remotely hold a candle to the one we have now.
 

SylverRye

Official Loop Kang Main
Imo i wouldn't say 1 as there are still new non fleshed out kp2 characters and a few characters who have gotten some huge buffs. However, i do believe she would be a top 10 character now, i hate fighting even pre patch mileena so it pains me to say that lol.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
I don't see how she was over buffed. The only thing too good about her I'd say is b12, but that's always been too good. It should be a high.
You have no freaking clue about this character. B12 isn't whats too good about her and making it a high wouldn't be a massive difference, it can already be low profiled by a lot of stuff. Not a true mid like Cage F3 or Kotal B1. It's the fact that she has a complete tool set and doesn't lose super hard to anyone in any situation.
 

PND_Ketchup

"More deadly than the dawn"
I appologize, that was not my intention, but when you come in here with a snide remark about how you asked that question BEFORE the patch and imply it somehow holds relevance now it just doesn't sit right.

The point I was trying to make with the best in the game remark was not that you guys said it, but that she is being questioned in that position now, where as before she was no where close to earning that sort of consideration. This further bolsters my point that we are talking about two very different characters now and it's simply unfair to imply that the Mileena community was using a character that could remotely hold a candle to the one we have now.
Not to put Foxy on a pedestal, I don't like doing that with any player. But Foxy was saying the same stuff about Mileena he's saying now, it just so happens that the only footage of him using her is post patch.

Do you not think maybe he was on to something beforehand?
 
You have no freaking clue about this character. B12 isn't whats too good about her and making it a high wouldn't be a massive difference, it can already be low profiled by a lot of stuff. Not a true mid like Cage F3 or Kotal B1. It's the fact that she has a complete tool set and doesn't lose super hard to anyone in any situation.
Isn't it better for a character to be well-rounded than ridiculously overpowered?
 

Goat-City

Banned
You have no freaking clue about this character. B12 isn't whats too good about her and making it a high wouldn't be a massive difference, it can already be low profiled by a lot of stuff. Not a true mid like Cage F3 or Kotal B1. It's the fact that she has a complete tool set and doesn't lose super hard to anyone in any situation.
I didn't claim to dankster, relax. I know making b12 a high wouldn't make a massive difference, because I don't think she needs any massive nerfs. Make it a high, and after just watching Tom Brady's new video on b12, they might need to give b1 some more recovery frames, but that's about it. Why should she lose in any match ups? Ideally every variation should go 5-5 with any other variation. I'm just saying I haven't seen anything that would justify nerfing her beyond making b12 a tad less brain dead. I played foxy's mileena myself with Sorcerer Quan in the beta, and even though I got bodied 10-1, from my observations in the matches I didn't feel like she was too good at all aside from b12. I was learning as I played him and I could tell if I was more prepared for the match up I would've done a lot better.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
I didn't claim to dankster, relax. I know making b12 a high wouldn't make a massive difference, because I don't think she needs any massive nerfs. Make it a high, and after just watching Tom Brady's new video on b12, they might need to give b1 some more recovery frames, but that's about it. Why should she lose in any match ups? Ideally every variation should go 5-5 with any other variation. I'm just saying I haven't seen anything that would justify nerfing her beyond making b12 a tad less brain dead. I played foxy's mileena myself with Sorcerer Quan in the beta, and even though I got bodied 10-1, from my observations in the matches I didn't feel like she was too good at all aside from b12. I was learning as I played him and I could tell if I was more prepared for the match up I would've done a lot better.
Recovery frames might do the trick.. Not super sure yet.
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Not to put Foxy on a pedestal, I don't like doing that with any player. But Foxy was saying the same stuff about Mileena he's saying now, it just so happens that the only footage of him using her is post patch.

Do you not think maybe he was on to something beforehand?
Absolutely I do, and like you, I don't mean to sing all praises of foxy lol, but he is also one of the best MK players in the world.

He realized that Mileena could play a lot like Lao. She has tools that force reactions, and we all know how good Foxy is with those types of characters.

The Mileena community thought she was a solid character that had issues at the time. We knew she wasn't number 1, just as you did. She was good, but she wasn't GREAT.

We are all reassessing her now just as you have been since the changes, and it appears that most of us now think she is GREAT. At the time however, I don't think anyone could agree she stood with the best of the best.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
I didn't claim to dankster, relax. I know making b12 a high wouldn't make a massive difference, because I don't think she needs any massive nerfs. Make it a high, and after just watching Tom Brady's new video on b12, they might need to give b1 some more recovery frames, but that's about it. Why should she lose in any match ups? Ideally every variation should go 5-5 with any other variation. I'm just saying I haven't seen anything that would justify nerfing her beyond making b12 a tad less brain dead. I played foxy's mileena myself with Sorcerer Quan in the beta, and even though I got bodied 10-1, from my observations in the matches I didn't feel like she was too good at all aside from b12. I was learning as I played him and I could tell if I was more prepared for the match up I would've done a lot better.
Making B1 a high would ruin piercing, she'd have nothing to respect, and nothing to get people off of her. Please actually research your shit rather than just listening to one video that looks in 1 dimension about something that you shouldnt be doing against her anyway.
 

Goat-City

Banned
Making B1 a high would ruin piercing, she'd have nothing to respect, and nothing to get people off of her. Please actually research your shit rather than just listening to one video that looks in 1 dimension about something that you shouldnt be doing against her anyway.
If I was going to try to make a serious argument that b1 should have more recovery frames then I would research my shit, but I'm just saying MAYBE it should have some more recovery frames. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything in this case because I know I'm no expert, I'm just sharing my impressions.

How would she have nothing to respect? All characters have to respect each other's pokes, and if they disrespect your advantage then you can poke them out of their offense, then jail any of her highs including b1 if it was a high.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
If I was going to try to make a serious argument that b1 should have more recovery frames then I would research my shit, but I'm just saying MAYBE it should have some more recovery frames. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything in this case because I know I'm no expert, I'm just sharing my impressions.

How would she have nothing to respect? All characters have to respect each other's pokes, and if they disrespect your advantage then you can poke them out of their offense, then jail any of her highs including b1 if it was a high.
Her pokes are so short ranged you use them in a street fighter sort of fashion opposed to expecting them to reach the opponent.
She'd have nothing to respect from mid range because she doesnt have anything that reaches.
 
The only reason she's been been buffed into the sheer ridiculousness she is now is because you all desperately preached for buffs until the cows came home.

What seemed to have been a few "quality of life" changes by speeding up her pokes is why we have the Mileena we have now. What was already pretty damn strong was put overboard because of the changes she received.

The fact you think it is 100% the buffs that mean shes good now shows just how much people still refused to believe that she was decent. She was good before, now shes super insanely good.
Who thought those were quality of life changes? Pretty sure mileena mains were freaking elated when we saw those patch notes.

overboard..... no. d1 can't even reach you unless you're pointblank. something to reverse pressure that isn't -12387581874389 isn't overboard. 8f d3 isn't like it's insanely better than other pokes either. And her air sais actually have utility now.. why is that overboard? maybe she should just go back to not being able to use them.

did she get better? absolutely.. but people are acting like she got a 50% restand into 50/50s and shit.

I don't see Mileena in FR top 8..... she must be pretty ridiculous and totally over buffed.
 
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I think the overall point @PND_Ketchup is, and has been, trying to make is that pre-XL Mileena was generally considered trash when she wasn't. She was not top tier pre-XL, but she was not as bad as everyone kept saying she was.

In that respect, I agree. I do think the A+ Tier placement they gave her before New Years was a bit high, but I get overall what they were going on about.