Low tier variation problems: Who's struggling and why

[Safe Armor]

Well I wouldn't say low tier but Bone Shaper is overhyped and upplayed imo.

He barely breaks 30% with a bar of meter, he has no stagger strings to mix you up, his overhead/low mix ups aren't really mix ups just block low. He burns a bar of meter and still gets nothing out of it.
Now he has good zoning but it isn't MK9 Kenshi or Kabal zoning and he also gets out zoned; sometimes by chars that are even better than him up close.

He isn't top5 imo.

 

[Second Saint]

Well I wouldn't say low tier but Bone Shaper is overhyped and upplayed imo.

He barely breaks 30% with a bar of meter, he has no stagger strings to mix you up, his overhead/low mix ups aren't really mix ups just block low. He burns a bar of meter and still gets nothing out of it.
Now he has good zoning but it isn't MK9 Kenshi or Kabal zoning and he also gets out zoned; sometimes by chars that are even better than him up close.

He isn't top5 imo.

F3 isn't staggerable at -1? It's even a legitimate frame trap on D'vorah and Tremor because their pokes are 8f, so they can't beat d1 and can at best trade with f4. Yes, b3/f4 is fuzzyable, but there are ways around that such as delayed low and, of course, being unpredictable in general. Fuzzying really only works from certain situations such as the restand or a jump in. In the neutral, nobody is reacting to an 18 frame overhead.

You might be right about him not being top 5, but I'd say he's just outside of it at minimum.

 

[Zionix]

F3 isn't staggerable at -1? It's even a legitimate frame trap on D'vorah and Tremor because their pokes are 8f, so they can't beat d1 and can at best trade with f4. Yes, b3/f4 is fuzzyable, but there are ways around that such as delayed low and, of course, being unpredictable in general. Fuzzying really only works from certain situations such as the restand or a jump in. In the neutral, nobody is reacting to an 18 frame overhead.

You might be right about him not being top 5, but I'd say he's just outside of it at minimum.

Don't sugar coat reality.

Shinnok is balls deep strong.

 

[Second Saint]

Don't sugar coat reality.

Shinnok is balls deep strong.

I prefer to not make absolute statements on how good a character I haven't been grinding is when we're only a little over a month into the meta. Time and evidence may change my opinions, even if I see that as unlikely at the moment.

 

[LeftOverShark]

What would be a good reason to choose commando over cutthroat?

What would be a good reason to choose commando over cutthroat?

What would be a good reason to choose commando over cutthroat?

ohhhh thats kinda tough. Tbh, what commando has over cutthroat are his options with b1. Its a great AA, its meaty and can be used to break armor and is a great footsie tool that is relatively fast. Also commando has more reliable as well as multiple armor moves than cutthroat let alone any other variation that Kano has.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Well I wouldn't say low tier but Bone Shaper is overhyped and upplayed imo.

He barely breaks 30% with a bar of meter, he has no stagger strings to mix you up, his overhead/low mix ups aren't really mix ups just block low. He burns a bar of meter and still gets nothing out of it.
Now he has good zoning but it isn't MK9 Kenshi or Kabal zoning and he also gets out zoned; sometimes by chars that are even better than him up close.

He isn't top5 imo.

Wound Cowboy please.....

 

[Zionix]

I prefer to not make absolute statements on how good a character I haven't been grinding is when we're only a little over a month into the meta. Time and evidence may change my opinions, even if I see that as unlikely at the moment.

Wasn't meant to be a serious stab at you.

Just helping you out, no need to second guess your opinion for the sake of a discussion.

Shinnok is mad good.

 

[Wigy]

Well I wouldn't say low tier but Bone Shaper is overhyped and upplayed imo.

He barely breaks 30% with a bar of meter, he has no stagger strings to mix you up, his overhead/low mix ups aren't really mix ups just block low. He burns a bar of meter and still gets nothing out of it.
Now he has good zoning but it isn't MK9 Kenshi or Kabal zoning and he also gets out zoned; sometimes by chars that are even better than him up close.

He isn't top5 imo.

Nobody has proper combo starting mixups anymore bar like 2 character, sub and reptile (who shouldnt have them, but thats a different point)

Most of the cast either have fuzziable shit or mixups which lead to little. Maybe not bo but thats literally all he has, along with the worst neutral ever.

F4 is an insane footsie tool.
If they're sitting there fuzzying then you can stagger your f4 or just grab them tonnes. You're saying that like people dont get caught with the mixup, come on now.

I took boneshaper into the lab, he seems to do some pretty bulky damage off his stuff especially in the corner, but im not a shinnock player. But any respect mean 30% on a safe 7frame low, why are you complaining here.

You have great meterbuild, amazing space control. Good wakeups with that shoulder thing.

D4 is insane
D1 is very good
Jip is very good

My main gripe with shinnock players is this bill that hellsparks are so punishable. If you have a bar theres a huge mindgame and even without its hard for some characters.

Wana add that to the fact you have imposter who is just all kinds of stupid?

 

[Second Saint]

Wasn't meant to be a serious stab at you.

Just helping you out, no need to second guess your opinion for the sake of a discussion.

Shinnok is mad good.

Oh, I'm not second guessing my opinion. I reserve the right to change my opinion as I receive more information. And I was the one arguing for Shinnok being good in the first place, y'know? All I said was that, in the remote possibility he isn't top 5, he's right outside of it. I mean, think of the crazy strong characters in this game that weren't top 5. SQ D'vorah was probably never top 5, forever 6 or 7.

 

[Wigy]

Honestly. I dont know how liu kang isnt more talked about for top 5. Mofo is insane now.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Honestly. I dont know how liu kang isnt more talked about for top 5. Mofo is insane now.

Liu is absolutely nuts. I don't think he is better than Sonya, Ermac, Smoke, Jason, and Sub-Zero for top 5 though but he should definitely be talked about more.

 

[Wigy]

Liu is absolutely nuts. I don't think he is better than Sonya, Ermac, Smoke, Jason, and Sub-Zero for top 5 though but he should definitely be talked about more.

Theres a little irony that they tried to nerf mixups and 4/5 of the top are very heavy on mixups.

Sub can especially go fuck himself.

 

[Pan1cMode]

Nobody has proper combo starting mixups anymore bar like 2 character, sub and reptile (who shouldnt have them, but thats a different point)

Most of the cast either have fuzziable shit or mixups which lead to little. Maybe not bo but thats literally all he has, along with the worst neutral ever.

F4 is an insane footsie tool.
If they're sitting there fuzzying then you can stagger your f4 or just grab them tonnes. You're saying that like people dont get caught with the mixup, come on now.

I took boneshaper into the lab, he seems to do some pretty bulky damage off his stuff especially in the corner, but im not a shinnock player. But any respect mean 30% on a safe 7frame low, why are you complaining here.

You have great meterbuild, amazing space control. Good wakeups with that shoulder thing.

D4 is insane
D1 is very good
Jip is very good

My main gripe with shinnock players is this bill that hellsparks are so punishable. If you have a bar theres a huge mindgame and even without its hard for some characters.

Wana add that to the fact you have imposter who is just all kinds of stupid?

You missed Jacqui.

Safe launching 50/50s into high damage.

 

[Rude]

Please elaborate, I wanna know these 'stupidly high damage' combos.



What unreactable launching 50/50 does he have?



For a cost of 10% of his own lifebar, even when he fails; also, remember that self-destruct goes away on hit or block as well.



...or you could play HQT and make most strings + on block, not just safe AND have great projectiles as well.



Again, please elaborate instead of telling us to 'do a bit of research'.

10% damage for being able to not only combo from a throw but increase combo damage is a fair trade.

His backhand has like, 3 hits of armor. lol he's not bad at all.

 

[Rude]

If comparing tools aren't enough you guys may wanna think about Warrior's matchup chart
I can name at least 15 zoners post patch who can win Warrior without even touching him. The rest basically outfootsie him very hard. He has 4-6s 3-7s everywhere.

The base footsie tools don't change across variations. b2, d4, disc to open up the use of his highs, it's all there.

Can you link me a complete match up chart of Warrior vs the cast?

 

[AGRxShiroKuma]

ohhhh thats kinda tough. Tbh, what commando has over cutthroat are his options with b1. Its a great AA, its meaty and can be used to break armor and is a great footsie tool that is relatively fast. Also commando has more reliable as well as multiple armor moves than cutthroat let alone any other variation that Kano has.

Thanks for the help man it is greatly appreciated.

 

[Rude]

Jacqui Full Auto
Ermac Mystic
Kitana 3 variations
Mileena 3 variations
Sonya Special Forces
Alien Acidic, even Konjurer can bring a lot of troubles to Warrior
Quan Chi of course
HQT himself
TG Goro. The new projectile buff is a nightmare for Warrior
Tremor
Pyro and DN Tanya
Buzzsaw Kung Lao
Hollywood Cassie
Gunslinger Erron Black
Reptile all 3 variations
Pretty Lady Leatherface
Sektor
Shinnok all 3 variations
Liu Kang FF and DF
Kano all 3 variations
Kung Jin Shaolin and Ancestral
They all beat Warrior 6-4, or 7-3. Matchups like Pyro Tanya or Shinnok feels like Lex vs Zod

Yeah, I'm gonna call bullshit on this list.

Your criteria seems to be, "do they have a projectile?"

"Must be a losing match up!"

As if we're supposed to forget his universal advancing armor, disc, that assist in dealing with zoners.

Also, there's no reason why he can't duck some of these fireballs and work his way in to his preferred range.

Or, block/duck a fireball, Reversal disk.

Also, whoever implied 50/60% damage was bad because of the 20% trade off is insane.

If you're dealing that much damage in the corner, chances are good you're winning.

The backhand being - is fine. "Holy shit guys, my opponent has to guess between armor or more pressure! What am I going to do???"

Jesus H Christ.

 

[LeftOverShark]

Thanks for the help man it is greatly appreciated.

No problem! If you need some commando advice if you pick him up, feel free to message me.

 

[CrazyFingers]

On the subject of backhand being "only -4" I will bring your attention to commando kano. Commando Kano uses his choke for his staggers, it makes everything safe, it builds him meter, it's his main meterless hitconfirm. And guess what. -4. The -4 on this HIGH (not even a mid like backhand) is a TALKING POINT on the character. Yea, that's right, it's a plus for the character. Appreciate the back hand, it's strong.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

As if we're supposed to forget his universal advancing armor, disc, that assist in dealing with zoners.

Also, there's no reason why he can't duck some of these fireballs and work his way in to his preferred range.

Or, block/duck a fireball, Reversal disk.

.

the worst walk speed in the game sir. He's the worst character to get in. And you can't reversal DISC because you're gonna eat another projectile during the horrible recovery frames of disc
jesus, you can't prove me wrong and still want to argue? Did you ever actually pick, lab and play Warrior?
And 60% 1 bar, 20% health cost combo is not good because the starter is not viable at all. From viable launchers they ended up less than 50%
Why HQT's (and hunter) footsie is better with all the same normals? He get way more reward from any string, especially three most important strings: 122, 32, F12U2. He can make d4 completely safe. He has footsie tools that work outside of his d4 range, and he doesn't have to chase everyone (even CO Sonya and Cryomancer)
Please, prove I'm wrong. You obviously know little about Warrior

 

[Matix218]

As badly as Inferno has been handled over the course of the game's life, I'm not gonna do the cliche TYM thing and say it's bottom 5 with no winning matchups. (I don't meant to sound like a bigot but some of these 2015'ers should seriously have a look at MK9 Sheeva or Injustice 1 Joker to know what a character with no advantageous matchups in an NRS game really looks like). There are probably some core assets of Scorpion that still do their job in some matchups.

So in summary, is Inferno:

Redundant?
Absolutely. 100%

Bottom tier?
Can't say. Again, I don't know for sure how it's matchup chart stacks up against the rest of these supposed contenders for bottom 5 variations.

In my opinion as a scorpion player the only thing that inferno adds to the character over picking vatiationless is more combo damage and maybe some full screen chip against some characters. Essentially the minions are useless outside of combos against players that have a clue how to block and they are so negative that they are never helping you unless they hit.

Inferno is basically variationless with a combo damage buff and nothing more IMO.

 

[Second Saint]

the worst walk speed in the game sir. He's the worst character to get in. And you can't reversal DISC because you're gonna eat another projectile during the horrible recovery frames of disc
jesus, you can't prove me wrong and still want to argue? Did you ever actually pick, lab and play Warrior?
And 60% 1 bar, 20% health cost combo is not good because the starter is not viable at all. From viable launchers they ended up less than 50%
Why HQT's (and hunter) footsie is better with all the same normals? He get way more reward from any string, especially three most important strings: 122, 32, F12U2. He can make d4 completely safe. He has footsie tools that work outside of his d4 range, and he doesn't have to chase everyone (even CO Sonya and Cryomancer)
Please, prove I'm wrong. You obviously know little about Warrior

He definitely does not have the worst walk speed in the game. Lao, D'vorah, Bo Rai Cho, and F/T have worse. Predator is around Goro speed, maybe a little faster.

My metric for measuring this is simple, but not absolute. I set Sub-zero to walk back to full screen in practice, specifically a certain line in the training stage, then see who catches him by the time he gets to it. Warrior catches him fine, the four above do not reach him.

We really do need a definitive list of walk speeds. So many frames to count though to be 100% sure.

 

[Rude]

the worst walk speed in the game sir. He's the worst character to get in. And you can't reversal DISC because you're gonna eat another projectile during the horrible recovery frames of disc
jesus, you can't prove me wrong and still want to argue? Did you ever actually pick, lab and play Warrior?
And 60% 1 bar, 20% health cost combo is not good because the starter is not viable at all. From viable launchers they ended up less than 50%
Why HQT's (and hunter) footsie is better with all the same normals? He get way more reward from any string, especially three most important strings: 122, 32, F12U2. He can make d4 completely safe. He has footsie tools that work outside of his d4 range, and he doesn't have to chase everyone (even CO Sonya and Cryomancer)
Please, prove I'm wrong. You obviously know little about Warrior

I play against a Warrior player, offline, regularly.

He does not have the worst walk speed in the game. What horseshit. You don't need to have godlike walk speed to get in through Hollywood's zoning.

Whether or not you eat another projectIle would depend on the fireball being thrown at you. Predator player's throw disc in the nuetral to assist in getting in all the time. your b2 string has incredible range as well, and you have the armor on EX Stab. Holy shit you guys, Warrior players have to make reads to get in. Woe is them.

Even if you're hitting in the upper 40% at the cost of 10% life, that's still a favorable trade off. That's less damage than you take from a throw and you're getting big damage, especially in the corner and it's giving you the ability to launch off of a throw.

You're obviously a HUGE downplayer.

 

[Skedar70]

I play against a Warrior player, offline, regularly.

He does not have the worst walk speed in the game. What horseshit. You don't need to have godlike walk speed to get in through Hollywood's zoning.

Whether or not you eat another projectIle would depend on the fireball being thrown at you. Predator player's throw disc in the nuetral to assist in getting in all the time. your b2 string has incredible range as well, and you have the armor on EX Stab. Holy shit you guys, Warrior players have to make reads to get in. Woe is them.

Even if you're hitting in the upper 40% at the cost of 10% life, that's still a favorable trade off. That's less damage than you take from a throw and you're getting big damage, especially in the corner and it's giving you the ability to launch off of a throw.

You're obviously a HUGE downplayer.

Warrior is garbage and the worst character in the game. I have no idea why you guys just don't recognize it. Very meter hungry and no way of building it. He can't do a thing without meter and he doesn't have pressure or projectiles to be able to build it. Slow movement speed (doesn't mater if its the slowest or not its still slow af). The opponent just keeps away and its GG. If Warrior ever corners you just block one of his negative strings and its your turn again so get out and keep away again. Very slow jump speed and a huge hurtbox so you can't jump over projectiles if you have that idea. Hollywoods zoning??? WTF since when is hollywood a zoner of course any character can get in on that zoning. Try real zoners like Quan, Kitana, Pyromancer.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

I play against a Warrior player, offline, regularly.

He does not have the worst walk speed in the game. What horseshit. You don't need to have godlike walk speed to get in through Hollywood's zoning.

Whether or not you eat another projectIle would depend on the fireball being thrown at you. Predator player's throw disc in the nuetral to assist in getting in all the time. your b2 string has incredible range as well, and you have the armor on EX Stab. Holy shit you guys, Warrior players have to make reads to get in. Woe is them.

Even if you're hitting in the upper 40% at the cost of 10% life, that's still a favorable trade off. That's less damage than you take from a throw and you're getting big damage, especially in the corner and it's giving you the ability to launch off of a throw.

You're obviously a HUGE downplayer.

You don't play Warrior, you don't know shit sir. "disc in neutral to assist them" lol go record Kano spam knives after knives, switch to Warrior, try to duck a knife and throw out disc then come back here and tell me you don't get hit by the next knife and the disc is completely useless
"Holy shit you guys, Warrior players have to make reads to get in. Woe is them". Exactly like pre patch Bo, which is wow, not low tier lol, and when he's in he doesn't even play footsie as well as others
"Even if you're hitting in the upper 40% at the cost of 10% life that's still a favorable trade off" first he must sacrifice 3-5% of the previous combo for F4 hard knockdown into self destruct setup, then in order to reach 40% he has to spend another bar and end the combo with soft knockdown of BF4. The corner also makes his combos harder and less damaging. Favorable trade off yes, but isn't it too low outcome for such resource spent for such character like Warrior?
B2 is a 17f high and even after d4 on hit (+16), he can be low-poked out of his B2 lol. He has no other long range normals, everyone can walk out of his range and whiff punish.
Even REO, the tech monster left some hints behind for you guys to know how bad Warrior is. He spent time with Warrior for a month and all he has is one Warrior thread with the "tech" (watch it, it's tutorial how to spend 20% of health into 30% meterless combo into self destruct setup) and one Warrior online set (in which he didn't come close to winning a set)
For the last time, please take Warrior to the lab before discussing and saying anyone of us is huge downplayer.
@HateMe! I'm done. People still think Warrior can disc inbetween projectiles to get in