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Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

Enexemander

A Hitbox Pirate - YARRR -
Yeah they need to buff raiden for sure, this move after f4 feels punishable on some characters and safer on others but that move when amped should be safe, period. Pretty sure nrs went out of their way to fuck raiden hard in this game compared to the last two but didn't stop them from making scorpion and erron black op if not better in mk 11 than mk x actually. Smh
What happened was they knee jerk nerfed him after his reveal. So, yeah, he was designed to be good. They neutered him to mediocre (while letting Sonya's shit rock... yeah).
NRS has an incredibly bad record at balancing anything, but especially quickly (see: D'Vorah). I hope to Hell they've been diligently working on the next balance patch since release. Because if they rush it? It's going to be trash.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
What happened was they knee jerk nerfed him after his reveal. So, yeah, he was designed to be good. They neutered him to mediocre (while letting Sonya's shit rock... yeah).
NRS has an incredibly bad record at balancing anything, but especially quickly (see: D'Vorah). I hope to Hell they've been diligently working on the next balance patch since release. Because if they rush it? It's going to be trash.
Raiden? seems they were afraid he'd be MK X Raiden but he's no where near that, hell not even MK 9 who was fast. lol He's an honest character and can give people trouble but that's not to say he can't use a buff or two at this point, not OP or anything. I mean if NRS are ok with Scorp, Geras and E.Black with all their tools, I don't think it's much for Raiden players to ask for a buff. I wouldn't say "incredibly bad" for that nothing of their team would make Evo if it were THAT bad. I think I2 had better balance than previous NRS games, and MK 9 only needed like one more patch to be honest. MK 11 has a respectable amount of players at Evo. I mean I won't say NRS games are perfect, they're not but then neither are anyone else Capcom, Namco or otherwise. I mean at least their games are complete on release lol with every mode. But let's face it all games have updates, patches etc now post release. D'vorah can use a buff as well obviously, though I have to admit I don't think she's QUITE as crap as some make her out to be, I just think she happens to be at the bottom right now. I've played a few damn good D'vorah players that made me think a bit.
 

Mahjunia

Noob
i think making 321 +4 on block can give him more options, like normal bf1 or amp and also even lead to a grab... Sort of like liu kang's f43u3.

Let US have B1 with better stagger, df2 less recovery, safer and be amped on block plsss like wtf.

And this is not a good idea but making storm cell possible to be amped on block and the last hit be a mid can change a lot (only the amp's version last hit to be a mid and the normal storm cell let It be like It is). Anyways this last thing might be nonsense forget about it.
 
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Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
I mean all his other cancel options aren't that good in my opinion. He has to spend a defensive bar for a far tele cancel. If they fix his frames I guess that will suffice. i just want him to have a viable stagger string if they don't upgrade his 50/50 strings.
He’s not an offensive character. His cancel options are there to bait buttons so you can whiff punish. When you gain the opponent’s respect, then you can pressure. He should just have minor buffs to his frames, and larger buffs for lightning strike and most importantly he needs to get his hit boxes fixed. F1 whiffing on standing opponents and going through characters needs to stop. D2 and U2 can’t hit directly above them, rendering them pretty useless in the corner. As for plus frames. If S3 gets fixed and no longer whiffs on opponents crouch blocking, it’s actually +3 and he can get his poke/throw mixup going there.
 
He’s not an offensive character. His cancel options are there to bait buttons so you can whiff punish. When you gain the opponent’s respect, then you can pressure. He should just have minor buffs to his frames, and larger buffs for lightning strike and most importantly he needs to get his hit boxes fixed. F1 whiffing on standing opponents and going through characters needs to stop. D2 and U2 can’t hit directly above them, rendering them pretty useless in the corner. As for plus frames. If S3 gets fixed and no longer whiffs on opponents crouch blocking, it’s actually +3 and he can get his poke/throw mixup going there.
the fact that he is a designated whiff punisher is a problem. The hitbox issues will solve a lot of problems for every character in the game, but the more I play him it just feels like he has no real offense. db2 needs to be reworked to work as intended which was to be safe after string. I Feel like its meant to jail while your in the animation its called "storm cell" for a reason. the hitbox on the it needs to work like frost's spin blades which jails you on contact. (frost spin blades are highs). I'm not a Raiden main so I'm not familiar with raijins options at all. I play the first variation and against a solid opponent who knows the matchup feel like I have no safe option That can enforce Raidens Game. B1 string easily can be baited and punished. f4 gets low profiled a lot. close tele is always being scouted. (far tele cost defensive meter and really execution heavy to pull off after a string.)
 
I agree def needs db2 amp needs to be safe and frame improvements. It's not like itll make him op just more viable from a competitive viewpoint.
The problem with this is once it happens Storm Cell becomes mandatory. This should never be the case for a variation system.

What happened was they knee jerk nerfed him after his reveal. So, yeah, he was designed to be good. They neutered him to mediocre (while letting Sonya's shit rock... yeah).
THANK YOU

and pour one out for Lightning Strike.
 

Enexemander

A Hitbox Pirate - YARRR -
@CasualPlayer
Let me tell you about our Lord and Savior F3. 11 frames, good range, and safe both by itself and as a stagger. You can also cancel it into some "will they or won't they?" shenanigans. On hit, it's a great jailer so do what you want with strike/throw mind games.
What's my go to whiff punisher? F3. KB follow up (midscreen)? F3. FB U2? F3.
Hehe okay I'm overselling it. But I would play the character totally differently if F3 didn't exist. Probably 90% of my game play is F3 into shenanigans and hit confirm jailing into S2 string.
Fuck if I'm going to blow a defense bar on B1 every time for a "maybe."
 
@CasualPlayer
Let me tell you about our Lord and Savior F3. 11 frames, good range, and safe both by itself and as a stagger. You can also cancel it into some "will they or won't they?" shenanigans. On hit, it's a great jailer so do what you want with strike/throw mind games.
What's my go to whiff punisher? F3. KB follow up (midscreen)? F3. FB U2? F3.
Hehe okay I'm overselling it. But I would play the character totally differently if F3 didn't exist. Probably 90% of my game play is F3 into shenanigans and hit confirm jailing into S2 string.
Fuck if I'm going to blow a defense bar on B1 every time for a "maybe."
Is f3 a single button or a string? I'll try using that more often. I just like having a string i can confirm in tbh
 

Enexemander

A Hitbox Pirate - YARRR -
Is f3 a single button or a string? I'll try using that more often. I just like having a string i can confirm in tbh
The stagger set up is F3,2 (ends in a knockdown. No special canceling off the 2). So you use that as a threat to stagger. Of course I always like to F3, Storm Cell to both A) Let them know I'm nuts and I'll totally do it man. Better respect! and B) see if they know how to punish Storm Cell.
It's not Cassie's godlike F4 by any means, but it's definitely something to work with. Your hit confirm off F3 by itself is enough plus frames to jail into other options (like your high strings or throws).
Since Raiden does get a KB off a throw, that's pretty nice.
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
the fact that he is a designated whiff punisher is a problem. The hitbox issues will solve a lot of problems for every character in the game, but the more I play him it just feels like he has no real offense. db2 needs to be reworked to work as intended which was to be safe after string. I Feel like its meant to jail while your in the animation its called "storm cell" for a reason. the hitbox on the it needs to work like frost's spin blades which jails you on contact. (frost spin blades are highs). I'm not a Raiden main so I'm not familiar with raijins options at all. I play the first variation and against a solid opponent who knows the matchup feel like I have no safe option That can enforce Raidens Game. B1 string easily can be baited and punished. f4 gets low profiled a lot. close tele is always being scouted. (far tele cost defensive meter and really execution heavy to pull off after a string.)
How is that deign choice a problem? That is his main strength. Storm cell’s purpose is combo extension, nothing more. It is working as intended. It being -3 just gives people a temporary option to abuse on people who for some reason don’t know the MU. Raiden’s F3 is completely safe and is his best up close button. Close teleport is not to be abused and should always be mixed with far teleport.

The name of Raiden’s game is respect. If you can mix up your options well you gain the respect of your opponent and then you mount your offensive. His corner pressure is good and his corner carry is even better. Use Raiden’s tools (however lacklustre they may be) to your advantage in order to gain respect. His plus frames on hit are actually pretty good. So even if you can’t hit confirm F3, F3 on hit jails in to lots of stuff, at worst you’re -6, at best you’re +15 again and free to do another strike/throw mix-up. F32 itself is valuable to end corner combos because it has the most hit advantage out of all of Raiden’s enders in thunder wave. Raiden takes a lot of work because he’s honest and is far from the best character in the game. However he has good tools to win with and can compete with most of the other characters in the game simply due to his mobility and control of mid screen with his whiff punish capabilities. Mix up your options and keep people guessing.
 

Black Chapters

Legend of Legaia Main
Gotcha
Im not trying to be a dick I was just missing the context of that video
Basically F1 has awful consistency. Its actually effected by idle movements and can miss them

As you can see it mostly hits Kitana but once she blocks it becomes worse.

Raiden is a whiff punisher I heard...........................
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
Basically F1 has awful consistency. Its actually effected by idle movements and can miss them

As you can see it mostly hits Kitana but once she blocks it becomes worse.

Raiden is a whiff punisher I heard...........................
Yeah, F1 kind of sucks. Raiden just isn’t that good. He has good tools but every thing he has is just not up to par compared to other characters.
 
the fact that he is a designated whiff punisher is a problem. The hitbox issues will solve a lot of problems for every character in the game, but the more I play him it just feels like he has no real offense. db2 needs to be reworked to work as intended which was to be safe after string. I Feel like its meant to jail while your in the animation its called "storm cell" for a reason. the hitbox on the it needs to work like frost's spin blades which jails you on contact. (frost spin blades are highs). I'm not a Raiden main so I'm not familiar with raijins options at all. I play the first variation and against a solid opponent who knows the matchup feel like I have no safe option That can enforce Raidens Game. B1 string easily can be baited and punished. f4 gets low profiled a lot. close tele is always being scouted. (far tele cost defensive meter and really execution heavy to pull off after a string.)
Just letting ya know... if you're curious about Raijin, I posted a detailed video guide for him in a separate post.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
That string sucks, and the hitboxes in this game are beyond stupid. This is but many prime examples. ^ vs Kitana.
 
Yeah, F1 kind of sucks. Raiden just isn’t that good. He has good tools but every thing he has is just not up to par compared to other characters.
I highly disagree with this. F1 has huge range, works well as an Anti Air, and also works well for mixing up pokes.

I think a lot of people really need to understand that Raiden is a master of the midrange. He excels controlling distance there. It's not wise to really stay at super close distance for too long vs a fast pressure fighter like Kang, Sonya, Jacqui, etc. Get in and get out, make them over extend, Raiden does a great job of covering distance with most of his normal attacks. Use F3 for stagger pressure. Use his Superman cancel in a combo for constant range mind games.

B2 is better than most players give it credit for. It has a slow windup, so use that offbeat timing to your advantage and you WILL start landing it more often than you realize. They're often forced to guess when you pressure them between your B3, 1, startup and the B2 overhead.

Most importantly, practice, practice, practice
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
I highly disagree with this. F1 has huge range, works well as an Anti Air, and also works well for mixing up pokes.

I think a lot of people really need to understand that Raiden is a master of the midrange. He excels controlling distance there. It's not wise to really stay at super close distance for too long vs a fast pressure fighter like Kang, Sonya, Jacqui, etc. Get in and get out, make them over extend, Raiden does a great job of covering distance with most of his normal attacks. Use F3 for stagger pressure. Use his Superman cancel in a combo for constant range mind games.

B2 is better than most players give it credit for. It has a slow windup, so use that offbeat timing to your advantage and you WILL start landing it more often than you realize. They're often forced to guess when you pressure them between your B3, 1, startup and the B2 overhead.

Most importantly, practice, practice, practice
F1 sucks because the range of the actual hit box is not reflected on the visual image of the staff. So the staff colliding with characters does not mean the hit box is. The coupled with the high angle of the attack makes it an ok anti air but harder whiff punisher because it whiffs through bodies and missed sometimes even when people are standing.
I’ve said this many times before. F3 is not a good stagger normal in this game because it’s -6. Sure you can do things like F3~storm cell to condition people into stop pressing buttons, but the risk reward is hugely skewed in their favour. By itself, F3 is a good mid, but compared to what other characters can do. Raiden is lacking.
All he needs are slight frame adjustments and he will be great but honest.
 

Gooberking

FGC Cannon Fodder
There are a lot of pages here, so I'm just going to own my late to the party status and ask random stuff that may or may not have been covered.

I've been playing Raiden on the side for a few weeks now. Is there a level of play where people realize b12 is -9 and b31 is -16 when the game is FB'ed?

When I first started playing him, those were obvious things to start tossing out. Once I made my pass over the frame data, I decided I should probably be doing way more f3's to fish for +frames, but it didn't take long to bake in my muscle memory around b12, and b31. I have ideas of what I would do if someone proves they can stop me from doing b12 all the time, but I have yet meet someone that does, and I almost feel like Raidens are surprised when I punish b12. I do have yet to FB b31 in a match. The timing itself isn't hard, you just don't have a ton of time to realize the gap is coming before you miss it., but I feel like there are plenty of people with good enough reactions to blow it up - if they knew they could.

I'm starting to feel like a lot of what I'm doing is being built on shaky ground, but I haven't run into much of anyone that is forcing me to try different things. I guess I've really not been playing people all that much lately, so maybe I just need to fight more and see, but I'd be curious to know who has been forced to do other things and what works when those strings start to fail you.
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
Found this on YouTube, seems legit. Haven’t tested it yet though, but it’s good to know and allows for more paths to end combos.
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
There are a lot of pages here, so I'm just going to own my late to the party status and ask random stuff that may or may not have been covered.

I've been playing Raiden on the side for a few weeks now. Is there a level of play where people realize b12 is -9 and b31 is -16 when the game is FB'ed?

When I first started playing him, those were obvious things to start tossing out. Once I made my pass over the frame data, I decided I should probably be doing way more f3's to fish for +frames, but it didn't take long to bake in my muscle memory around b12, and b31. I have ideas of what I would do if someone proves they can stop me from doing b12 all the time, but I have yet meet someone that does, and I almost feel like Raidens are surprised when I punish b12. I do have yet to FB b31 in a match. The timing itself isn't hard, you just don't have a ton of time to realize the gap is coming before you miss it., but I feel like there are plenty of people with good enough reactions to blow it up - if they knew they could.

I'm starting to feel like a lot of what I'm doing is being built on shaky ground, but I haven't run into much of anyone that is forcing me to try different things. I guess I've really not been playing people all that much lately, so maybe I just need to fight more and see, but I'd be curious to know who has been forced to do other things and what works when those strings start to fail you.
-9 is a tight punish for most characters. However if you can mix up with fly cancels or far teleports then it becomes harder for them to guess which punish to use. Since fly cancels can be punished by fast forward advancing moves like shadow kicks, but not doing fly cancels will be punished by pokes and jabs. Raiden struggles a lot against people who understand his bad frames and poke out of all his staggers. Most people just don’t know that B12 is -9 and his best stagger is actually -6 since they don’t probably run into a lot of Raiden’s online.
 

Ray'sGoodLiquor

I don't care I'm not a competitive player anymore
Basically F1 has awful consistency. Its actually effected by idle movements and can miss them

As you can see it mostly hits Kitana but once she blocks it becomes worse.

Raiden is a whiff punisher I heard...........................
It whiffs on kabal based on where he is in his breathing animation. Shit's stupid.