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Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
Why Jade?
You can fly against glow and low wave on reaction. Air glaive you can too just be careful of flying into a glaive. Which means you easily punish her zoning into corner carry from a distance. Then all her normal pressure stuff she'd usually do is easily punished with raijin. You basically make the jade player use like 3 moves or start canceling into glow kick on block.

Edit: I also forgot to mention taking half chip whenever you charge up is huge against characters like jade.
 
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buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
How does Frost beat Raiden? Please explain.
You can't reasonably react to frost D4. D4 reach is only matched by F1, F2, and F4. The first two are high and the mid is too slow. Further out B22 reaches you, and you can't counter poke properly spaced B2 and B22. Further out F2 is the only button she can press. Sure you can duck but now you're not moving and she's just gonna take space until she's in range again. Go full screen her projectiles are faster than yours + sheild. There's no point in the match where you actually have power in the match unless you're on top of pressuring her which isn't something Raiden really does. You're losing from the jump in neutral. So when are you going to gain an advantage?
 

Raidenwins

Raiden Practitioner
You can't reasonably react to frost D4. D4 reach is only matched by F1, F2, and F4. The first two are high and the mid is too slow. Further out B22 reaches you, and you can't counter poke properly spaced B2 and B22. Further out F2 is the only button she can press. Sure you can duck but now you're not moving and she's just gonna take space until she's in range again. Go full screen her projectiles are faster than yours + sheild. There's no point in the match where you actually have power in the match unless you're on top of pressuring her which isn't something Raiden really does. You're losing from the jump in neutral. So when are you going to gain an advantage?
Electric Fly into the corner and then start my mix-ups. Raiden is strong there. Your reasons are logical though. I don't know, i haven't faced many Frosts, but the ones I have do not give me any problems. The only characters that scare me (on casual level of skill opponents, mind you, not talking highest competitive level) are Scorpion, Geras, and Kung Lao.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
Electric Fly into the corner and then start my mix-ups. Raiden is strong there. Your reasons are logical though. I don't know, i haven't faced many Frosts, but the ones I have do not give me any problems. The only characters that scare me (on casual level of skill opponents, mind you, not talking highest competitive level) are Scorpion, Geras, and Kung Lao.
Trust me a good frost isn't letting you get a fly off. You're going to have to earn that corner and idk how you do it
 

Raidenwins

Raiden Practitioner
Trust me a good frost isn't letting you get a fly off. You're going to have to earn that corner and idk how you do it
Does Frost have an answer to Raiden's superior mobility though? I was thinking about this today and it dawned me that I am scared of Scorpion and Kung Lao because they can quickly get close to Raiden, especially in the case of Scoprion, if he does his teleport when we do ours, he very often wins. Frost, on the other hand, has a hard time getting in on a good Raiden. She doesn't have anything like Jacqui's dash punch move so she has to rely on jumping and forward dashing.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
Does Frost have an answer to Raiden's superior mobility though? I was thinking about this today and it dawned me that I am scared of Scorpion and Kung Lao because they can quickly get close to Raiden, especially in the case of Scoprion, if he does his teleport when we do ours, he very often wins. Frost, on the other hand, has a hard time getting in on a good Raiden. She doesn't have anything like Jacqui's dash punch move so she has to rely on jumping and forward dashing.
She has a normal that's basically the same as dash punch. Fast mid screen high that's safe on block but with more pushback and range with no hurtbox. You're only scared of scorpion teleport because it'll instantly punish the slightest movement into a full combo and you can't ever just do anything. Kung Lao teleport is too slow, needs meter burn to not be easily stopped and also no combo. Raiden teleport is not a threat. It's strictly movement. It doesn't solve anything besides getting out of the corner or making a read against zoning. What is teleporting going to do against buttons you can't contest? Especially with far teleporting taking defensive bar. You're either right next to her or just away from her either way negative unless you caught frost shooting something.
 

SparkySanders

“You task a thunder dawg”
Does anyone know where to get my mans electric fly brutalizer? I’ve went through the krypt and couldn’t find shit, is it perhaps in a towers of time thing for raiden?
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
I don't think Frost is that big of an issue for Raiden, if you read her projectiles or her FB and teleport instant punish chance for Raiden.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
I don't think Frost is that big of an issue for Raiden, if you read her projectiles or her FB and teleport instant punish chance for Raiden.
1) that's a read which means frost is becoming predictable or you're getting lucky.

2) why would she fireball or FB? If she never does a single fireball now what? Is the plan going to be Raiden's slow ass projectiles? And she has a projectile shield.

3) This doesn't answer any of the problems I've explained actually fighting her.

No way it's just that something strange is happening there
Just fucking with him. I'm going to try that MU.

I'm pretty interested in the Raijin variation but i have no clue as to what i'm getting into. Does this variation have anything going for it other than the discharge move?
Discharge is actually really huge when you look into it. But sadly DB4 best thing is a 50/50 off of B1 and if you're charged up you can launch for a combo in the corner. DF2 just gives an ender that hits lower to the ground. But you also get his dope choke move.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
1) that's a read which means frost is becoming predictable or you're getting lucky.

2) why would she fireball or FB? If she never does a single fireball now what? Is the plan going to be Raiden's slow ass projectiles? And she has a projectile shield.

3) This doesn't answer any of the problems I've explained actually fighting her.
This game is heavily about reads...and everyone makes mistakes sometimes, luck or not.

Because a lot of frosts like to play mid range game and if far use her projectiles, as for the fatal blow a lot of Frost players do it if she’s safe range mid to full screen. But if she’s facing a teleported the frost player may think twice if they’re smart. I never said anything about a single fireball. I was talking about her projectiles in general. Her shield moves forward and he has the lightning bolt from the sky remember which can hit her. That and like I said earlier he has a teleport to get in and punish her.

Sorry to hear that, all I can say is lab and practice the match up more.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
This game is heavily about reads...and everyone makes mistakes sometimes, luck or not.

Because a lot of frosts like to play mid range game and if far use her projectiles, as for the fatal blow a lot of Frost players do it if she’s safe range mid to full screen. But if she’s facing a teleported the frost player may think twice if they’re smart. I never said anything about a single fireball. I was talking about her projectiles in general. Her shield moves forward and he has the lightning bolt from the sky remember which can hit her. That and like I said earlier he has a teleport to get in and punish her.

Sorry to hear that, all I can say is lab and practice the match up more.
You're not understanding me. Frost tools beat Raiden's from match start. You have to overcome her buttons. She doesn't have to worry about a thing. You mentioned teleporting against her but she never has to do anything that you can teleport against. From full screen the most you can do is a bunch of guess work. Frost can just easily approach you and you can't easily approach her. You get midscreen and now she's in control because you're only play is to keep ducking hoping to make F2 whiff or teleport away. Only time you're in any control is right on top of her with advantage is actually hard to do because her buttons beat yours.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
You're not understanding me. Frost tools beat Raiden's from match start. You have to overcome her buttons. She doesn't have to worry about a thing. You mentioned teleporting against her but she never has to do anything that you can teleport against. From full screen the most you can do is a bunch of guess work. Frost can just easily approach you and you can't easily approach her. You get midscreen and now she's in control because you're only play is to keep ducking hoping to make F2 whiff or teleport away. Only time you're in any control is right on top of her with advantage is actually hard to do because her buttons beat yours.
I understand you, but I don't necessarily agree because I am a Raiden main since day one and Frost is not nearly his worst match up. It's all about reads and not letting her out footsie you, utilizing his teleport wisely and knowing when to counter attack. As soon as she does any projectiles you teleport, I never played any solid Frost who didn't use her projectiles or at least some of them. But like I said before, this whole game is a guessing game. Hell fighting games are mostly guessing and anticipating what your opponent will do. I have been playing a ton of Scorps and Erron Blacks in KL lately you want to talk about giving Raiden a hard time? lol Nevermind Frost. F2 is ok but i prefer F4 into DB2, it's safe and if you connect Raiden gets a free combo.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
It's all about reads and not letting her out footsie you,
This is one of those things that sounds great on paper only. You can't "not let her out footsie" you. You have no answer to some of her buttons. You can say "make reads" all day but what it really comes down to is your guessing and she never has to.

As soon as she does any projectiles you teleport,
You're not reacting to a 16f projectile. Again it's more than just "teleport as soon as she does a projectile"
I never played any solid Frost who didn't use her projectiles or at least some of them.
This goes along with my previous point. Why would she ever "need" to do a projectile? I faced Liu Kang who zone me when I have the life lead and they lose? Does that mean Liu Kang can't make a comeback against Raiden?

But like I said before, this whole game is a guessing game. Hell fighting games are mostly guessing and anticipating what your opponent will do.
This goes back to my first point. You're putting way too much into "reads". If you're playing a match where you have to make a lot of "reads" (guess a lot) then chances are it's not in your favor. I'm actually telling you how the two characters moves interact. There's no reads for "this button is better than my button"

I have been playing a ton of Scorps and Erron Blacks in KL lately you want to talk about giving Raiden a hard time?
Erron Black is not that bad as long as you don't eat F4 all game. Scorpion is a problem for everyone but not in the "these moves are just better way" that frost is against Raiden. Scorpion isn't doing a bunch of long range buttons with no hitbox you can't react to. You can actually whiff punish scorpion and erron.

I'll challenge any Raiden to play against me as frost. You'll see how much a challenge my day 0 frost is with just using pokes. If I start shooting shit it'll only get that much harder.
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
Hi all. Kindly contribute all the MU knowledge to the dedicated MU thread so as to reduce clutter and facilitate the searching of information. Thanks.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
This is one of those things that sounds great on paper only. You can't "not let her out footsie" you. You have no answer to some of her buttons. You can say "make reads" all day but what it really comes down to is your guessing and she never has to.


You're not reacting to a 16f projectile. Again it's more than just "teleport as soon as she does a projectile"

This goes along with my previous point. Why would she ever "need" to do a projectile? I faced Liu Kang who zone me when I have the life lead and they lose? Does that mean Liu Kang can't make a comeback against Raiden?


This goes back to my first point. You're putting way too much into "reads". If you're playing a match where you have to make a lot of "reads" (guess a lot) then chances are it's not in your favor. I'm actually telling you how the two characters moves interact. There's no reads for "this button is better than my button"


Erron Black is not that bad as long as you don't eat F4 all game. Scorpion is a problem for everyone but not in the "these moves are just better way" that frost is against Raiden. Scorpion isn't doing a bunch of long range buttons with no hitbox you can't react to. You can actually whiff punish scorpion and erron.

I'll challenge any Raiden to play against me as frost. You'll see how much a challenge my day 0 frost is with just using pokes. If I start shooting shit it'll only get that much harder.
Yeah not sure what to tell ya bud. You can make good or anticipate her reads with practice, obviously you can't always guess right but you can anticipate what she's going to do. They have to guess what you'll do as well, it's just unfortunate Raiden doesn't have many fast mix ups but my point is she has moves that do leave her open and that whiff. If you don't believe me just ask @Kindred

I have, as soon as she shoots from her chest I teleport and punish her. It's just about timing.

If she's trying to zone, chip you if you're from a far but like I said if she's facing a teleporter the Frost player will probably think twice before doing that vs. say someone like LK or Kitana or Cassie, someone without a teleport(though LK's second variation does have one I use it in Wu Shi) but you get the point. I'm aware like I said, been a Raiden main since day one. I'm telling you how to punish and fight her. I've used these against Frost's online and they've worked out for me.

EB is busted, his FB is OP and he has way too many tools. He's much harder to deal with than Frost is for not just Raiden but majority of the roster. He has it all except a teleport (not that he needs one) he can zone, anti zone, has good strings up close, an annoying drop kick, acid traps, etc, etc I agree with Scorpion as he has no bad matchups though I have beaten Scorpions with Raiden sometimes even better than E. Black because even if you teleport on reaction it won't matter vs. Black's lameass FB. I've also noticed it tracks you, example I've teleported before players start to do their FB and when I'm behind them he literally turns around and still hits me. Yes, this has happened to me. But neither are fun to deal with nor is Geras or Jax.

If you have Xbox I'll play your Frost, so far the best Frost I've seen by far is Kindred's and even he's said she sucks or lacks in quite a few areas because I considered using her at one point. Also mirror matches Raiden are Raiden is different since Raiden isn't Frost, she can't do what he can so you have to play that match up differently.
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
@buyacushun , very interesting discussion. I would like to add my 2c as a Frost main since day 1 but first I want to address how we differ in our view of what a “read” is, and then go from there.

If you're playing a match where you have to make a lot of "reads" (guess a lot) then chances are it's not in your favor.
IMO: I don’t consider “reads” as guesses. Reads are usually more than just “Im gonna block low this time & hope it works” or “ Im gonna poke this time”. To me, reads are more akin to “Im gonna block low this time because he went for a low last time we were in this situation”. In other words, reads are more based on recognizing the opponent’s pattern and responding to it. Much more complex than just guessing.

Now, with “reads” being operationally defined, let me try to address your main points.

Fast mid screen high that's safe on block but with more pushback and range with no hurtbox
Which move are you referring to? Her S1 and S3 both have little horizontal range. 22 is +5f but easily ducked so no frost would use them in your face unless they want to get immediately poked and lose their turn. S4 also has limited range and is a high so you can poke. Im not sure which high move you are referring to.

You can't reasonably react to frost D4. D4 reach is only matched by F1, F2, and F4. The first two are high and the mid is too slow.
D4 is a great tool for sure. When blocked, it is -9f but Im not familiar enough with raiden to know what your options are afterward. Maybe a teleport? I don’t know. Alternatively, if you block her D4, then the match is back at neutral. Depending on the distance, a quick dash in grab could catch ppl off guard.

Further out B22 reaches you, and you can't counter poke properly spaced B2 and B22.
B22 is her main tool and once you have the flawless block of the second hit down, you’ve shut down most of her game plan. Now you can say “ok but Frost can do B22~Spin”. The spin is -4f so you can poke me first. If you start doing that, I will block your poke and take my turn back with my 16f mid. If I start waiting for your poke, you switch it up by going into a grab or a string. If you start doing that, Ill poke right after my spin. And the cycle goes on. You have to try to figure out (i.e. read based on previous experiences) what im about to do, just like I have to try to figure out what you’re going to do after my spin is over. You only guess if you’re unfamiliar with the MU. When you know the MU and know each option I can do and you can do, then it’s a lot more than just a guess, it's an informed decision from each player.

Further out F2 is the only button she can press. you can duck but now you're not moving
A good Frost will only use that tool seldomly. You duck it and it’s a full combo punish because its recovery on whiff is 29f or you can D2(KB). You block it, we are at 0 and your 7f D1 beats her 9f D1. You try to punish with a string, which many unfamiliar with Frost try to do, you eat a poke and lose your turn. It’s a big risk and if you see a Frost player use F2 a lot, you can bait it and punish. Which is what @MKF30 was doing to me.

You're not reacting to a 16f projectile. Again it's more than just "teleport as soon as she does a projectile"
16f for the first projectile to come out, add the travelling time of a fairly slow projectile and a huge recovery and its very doable. Her other projectile, the one that travels in an arc, is a High so you can duck it or also react to it since its pretty slow. Especially since Raiden’s teleport has a 1f startup.

if you ask me what the MU is, like 5-5 or 6-4 or wtv, I dont know. I havent played enough Raidens to know. But what I can tell you is that once Frost is demystified, you realize how she is a fundamentally lack luster character and the only way to win with her is to see a person's pattern and adapt to it with risky funky shit.
If you're on XBL, Id love to play some games too (gt: k1ndred)
 
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