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Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

Black Chapters

Elder Gods consulter..
Gotcha
Im not trying to be a dick I was just missing the context of that video
Basically F1 has awful consistency. Its actually effected by idle movements and can miss them

As you can see it mostly hits Kitana but once she blocks it becomes worse.

Raiden is a whiff punisher I heard...........................
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
Basically F1 has awful consistency. Its actually effected by idle movements and can miss them

As you can see it mostly hits Kitana but once she blocks it becomes worse.

Raiden is a whiff punisher I heard...........................
Yeah, F1 kind of sucks. Raiden just isn’t that good. He has good tools but every thing he has is just not up to par compared to other characters.
 
the fact that he is a designated whiff punisher is a problem. The hitbox issues will solve a lot of problems for every character in the game, but the more I play him it just feels like he has no real offense. db2 needs to be reworked to work as intended which was to be safe after string. I Feel like its meant to jail while your in the animation its called "storm cell" for a reason. the hitbox on the it needs to work like frost's spin blades which jails you on contact. (frost spin blades are highs). I'm not a Raiden main so I'm not familiar with raijins options at all. I play the first variation and against a solid opponent who knows the matchup feel like I have no safe option That can enforce Raidens Game. B1 string easily can be baited and punished. f4 gets low profiled a lot. close tele is always being scouted. (far tele cost defensive meter and really execution heavy to pull off after a string.)
Just letting ya know... if you're curious about Raijin, I posted a detailed video guide for him in a separate post.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
That string sucks, and the hitboxes in this game are beyond stupid. This is but many prime examples. ^ vs Kitana.
 
Yeah, F1 kind of sucks. Raiden just isn’t that good. He has good tools but every thing he has is just not up to par compared to other characters.
I highly disagree with this. F1 has huge range, works well as an Anti Air, and also works well for mixing up pokes.

I think a lot of people really need to understand that Raiden is a master of the midrange. He excels controlling distance there. It's not wise to really stay at super close distance for too long vs a fast pressure fighter like Kang, Sonya, Jacqui, etc. Get in and get out, make them over extend, Raiden does a great job of covering distance with most of his normal attacks. Use F3 for stagger pressure. Use his Superman cancel in a combo for constant range mind games.

B2 is better than most players give it credit for. It has a slow windup, so use that offbeat timing to your advantage and you WILL start landing it more often than you realize. They're often forced to guess when you pressure them between your B3, 1, startup and the B2 overhead.

Most importantly, practice, practice, practice
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
I highly disagree with this. F1 has huge range, works well as an Anti Air, and also works well for mixing up pokes.

I think a lot of people really need to understand that Raiden is a master of the midrange. He excels controlling distance there. It's not wise to really stay at super close distance for too long vs a fast pressure fighter like Kang, Sonya, Jacqui, etc. Get in and get out, make them over extend, Raiden does a great job of covering distance with most of his normal attacks. Use F3 for stagger pressure. Use his Superman cancel in a combo for constant range mind games.

B2 is better than most players give it credit for. It has a slow windup, so use that offbeat timing to your advantage and you WILL start landing it more often than you realize. They're often forced to guess when you pressure them between your B3, 1, startup and the B2 overhead.

Most importantly, practice, practice, practice
F1 sucks because the range of the actual hit box is not reflected on the visual image of the staff. So the staff colliding with characters does not mean the hit box is. The coupled with the high angle of the attack makes it an ok anti air but harder whiff punisher because it whiffs through bodies and missed sometimes even when people are standing.
I’ve said this many times before. F3 is not a good stagger normal in this game because it’s -6. Sure you can do things like F3~storm cell to condition people into stop pressing buttons, but the risk reward is hugely skewed in their favour. By itself, F3 is a good mid, but compared to what other characters can do. Raiden is lacking.
All he needs are slight frame adjustments and he will be great but honest.
 

Gooberking

Solidly Mediocre
There are a lot of pages here, so I'm just going to own my late to the party status and ask random stuff that may or may not have been covered.

I've been playing Raiden on the side for a few weeks now. Is there a level of play where people realize b12 is -9 and b31 is -16 when the game is FB'ed?

When I first started playing him, those were obvious things to start tossing out. Once I made my pass over the frame data, I decided I should probably be doing way more f3's to fish for +frames, but it didn't take long to bake in my muscle memory around b12, and b31. I have ideas of what I would do if someone proves they can stop me from doing b12 all the time, but I have yet meet someone that does, and I almost feel like Raidens are surprised when I punish b12. I do have yet to FB b31 in a match. The timing itself isn't hard, you just don't have a ton of time to realize the gap is coming before you miss it., but I feel like there are plenty of people with good enough reactions to blow it up - if they knew they could.

I'm starting to feel like a lot of what I'm doing is being built on shaky ground, but I haven't run into much of anyone that is forcing me to try different things. I guess I've really not been playing people all that much lately, so maybe I just need to fight more and see, but I'd be curious to know who has been forced to do other things and what works when those strings start to fail you.
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
Found this on YouTube, seems legit. Haven’t tested it yet though, but it’s good to know and allows for more paths to end combos.
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
There are a lot of pages here, so I'm just going to own my late to the party status and ask random stuff that may or may not have been covered.

I've been playing Raiden on the side for a few weeks now. Is there a level of play where people realize b12 is -9 and b31 is -16 when the game is FB'ed?

When I first started playing him, those were obvious things to start tossing out. Once I made my pass over the frame data, I decided I should probably be doing way more f3's to fish for +frames, but it didn't take long to bake in my muscle memory around b12, and b31. I have ideas of what I would do if someone proves they can stop me from doing b12 all the time, but I have yet meet someone that does, and I almost feel like Raidens are surprised when I punish b12. I do have yet to FB b31 in a match. The timing itself isn't hard, you just don't have a ton of time to realize the gap is coming before you miss it., but I feel like there are plenty of people with good enough reactions to blow it up - if they knew they could.

I'm starting to feel like a lot of what I'm doing is being built on shaky ground, but I haven't run into much of anyone that is forcing me to try different things. I guess I've really not been playing people all that much lately, so maybe I just need to fight more and see, but I'd be curious to know who has been forced to do other things and what works when those strings start to fail you.
-9 is a tight punish for most characters. However if you can mix up with fly cancels or far teleports then it becomes harder for them to guess which punish to use. Since fly cancels can be punished by fast forward advancing moves like shadow kicks, but not doing fly cancels will be punished by pokes and jabs. Raiden struggles a lot against people who understand his bad frames and poke out of all his staggers. Most people just don’t know that B12 is -9 and his best stagger is actually -6 since they don’t probably run into a lot of Raiden’s online.
 

Ray'sGoodLiquor

Tournament Viable Killing Machine
Basically F1 has awful consistency. Its actually effected by idle movements and can miss them

As you can see it mostly hits Kitana but once she blocks it becomes worse.

Raiden is a whiff punisher I heard...........................
It whiffs on kabal based on where he is in his breathing animation. Shit's stupid.
 
I highly disagree with this. F1 has huge range, works well as an Anti Air
Tell that to everyone who decides to jump when I decide to f1 and slip over it completely.
Or the slew of animations that cause the other character to arch their back even slightly, ducking the f1. You really start to notice just how many moves end with a semi-crouch animation when trying to punish with fast highs.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
Nice vid in the corner there however the flawless block cant be assumed, I just think it's too inconsistent a mechanic but I like to keep them there if I can mix up b2 with 3 and punish up 3 with f4 into db2
 

Gooberking

Solidly Mediocre
Found this on YouTube, seems legit. Haven’t tested it yet though, but it’s good to know and allows for more paths to end combos.
Yesterday I saw you posted this. I'm pretty sure it's partly why I didn't get another rematch earlier. I'm pretty sure my interpretation is basic, but being able to have constant timing that blows up several wake up attempts, or end with a b2 ender to threaten the b2 KB is nice corner stuff.
 
So in my opinion, Raiden seems very readable. His f112 is too easy to whiff the first hit considering it’s a staff poke and very punishable. If it were a mid on the first hit, maybe it would be better for poking advancing players. Using it for anti air seems silly when you can footsie to make the opponent whiff a jump kick/punch.

His b31,2+4 is a advancing low start that has a slow startup (16). It may not seem slow, but his animation compared to other fighters is a easy read. This compared to scorpions advancing f423 (17) which is harder to read because it looks like he’s taking a step.(low to overhead is pretty dumb too) Raiden looks like he’s about to take a s**t before his low b3 comes out, very readable. Maybe change the startup to (12)?

His b12,1+3 is his fastest startup kombo and I don’t have issues with this because it’s viable. I never do the full kombo unless I’m trying to push for the korner.

His 121 kombo starts high and is a kB on punish, my issues is that he does not have much reach and can easily whiff the first hit being a high. I think it should be mid,high,mid.

His b2 chops, is extremely satisfying to land, but is also a little slow on startup, and even worse for recovery. Pushback might as well be non existent if the recovery is huge. the krushing blow should be on the second chop anytime like subzeros amped slide.

f2 and f4 is an example this game was rushed and they just said F*** it give him the exact same move with a knee. the knee seems better for hitting falling opponents but the recovery sucks. they should scrap f2 and give him something better while giving better recovery to f4.

f32 is quick but the headbutt should be an overhead

b14 should be faster on the second hit

thunderweave should hit low,med,high or med,low,high. its easily duck blocked or barely hits females.

electric fly kb is absurd. should be the 3rdamped or on punish. and where is the gibberish during the fly? fail...big fail. same with electrocute being scrapped like wtf?

teleport is nothing but a reposition tool, which is kinida bs considering how the game autocorrects the way the opponent is facing. too many times ive done this while they start a special just to be stuffed. amped teleport should be an opportunity to combo after...the recovery sucks. the autotrack for opponents suck. teleport should only be 1 slot or even a staple move....

lightning bolt is too slow...again he does the power ranger arm flail giving away his projectile

lightning strike should track to the opponent, the hitbox is too small. same for scarlet her tentacle should autotrack and I dont even play her that much. shang tsungs rising fire is a different story because it hits multiple places.

raijun or whatever is full of so many awkward hitboxes. the corner amp is 100% miss. the low staff special is so slow forest gump could block it ez pz.

i think Raiden wasnt given much attention other than being bad in the story. most of his specials speak volumes on this

edit: hes viable against beginners but compared to other characters that have better animations, hes kinda awkward
 

Gooberking

Solidly Mediocre
So in my opinion, Raiden seems very readable. His f112 is too easy to whiff the first hit considering it’s a staff poke and very punishable. If it were a mid on the first hit, maybe it would be better for poking advancing players. Using it for anti air seems silly when you can footsie to make the opponent whiff a jump kick/punch.

His b31,2+4 is a advancing low start that has a slow startup (16). It may not seem slow, but his animation compared to other fighters is a easy read. This compared to scorpions advancing f423 (17) which is harder to read because it looks like he’s taking a step.(low to overhead is pretty dumb too) Raiden looks like he’s about to take a s**t before his low b3 comes out, very readable. Maybe change the startup to (12)?

His b12,1+3 is his fastest startup kombo and I don’t have issues with this because it’s viable. I never do the full kombo unless I’m trying to push for the korner.

His 121 kombo starts high and is a kB on punish, my issues is that he does not have much reach and can easily whiff the first hit being a high. I think it should be mid,high,mid.

His b2 chops, is extremely satisfying to land, but is also a little slow on startup, and even worse for recovery. Pushback might as well be non existent if the recovery is huge. the krushing blow should be on the second chop anytime like subzeros amped slide.

f2 and f4 is an example this game was rushed and they just said F*** it give him the exact same move with a knee. the knee seems better for hitting falling opponents but the recovery sucks. they should scrap f2 and give him something better while giving better recovery to f4.

f32 is quick but the headbutt should be an overhead

b14 should be faster on the second hit

thunderweave should hit low,med,high or med,low,high. its easily duck blocked or barely hits females.

electric fly kb is absurd. should be the 3rdamped or on punish. and where is the gibberish during the fly? fail...big fail. same with electrocute being scrapped like wtf?

teleport is nothing but a reposition tool, which is kinida bs considering how the game autocorrects the way the opponent is facing. too many times ive done this while they start a special just to be stuffed. amped teleport should be an opportunity to combo after...the recovery sucks. the autotrack for opponents suck. teleport should only be 1 slot or even a staple move....

lightning bolt is too slow...again he does the power ranger arm flail giving away his projectile

lightning strike should track to the opponent, the hitbox is too small. same for scarlet her tentacle should autotrack and I dont even play her that much. shang tsungs rising fire is a different story because it hits multiple places.

raijun or whatever is full of so many awkward hitboxes. the corner amp is 100% miss. the low staff special is so slow forest gump could block it ez pz.

i think Raiden wasnt given much attention other than being bad in the story. most of his specials speak volumes on this

edit: hes viable against beginners but compared to other characters that have better animations, hes kinda awkward
You are asking for stuff no character has. 1 as a starter, is basically high across the character board. They are supposed to be fast punishers while risking getting low profiled. It is a perfectly viable punish move. Its angle isn't the best, but if the opponent is deep at all, it's an easy KB to get with 121. Youngsters shouldn't have any trouble hit confirming 12 into full combo as well. It's doing its job, and is more or less in line with other characters.

B3 is fine. It has decent advancement, starts low, safe on block, and leads to full hit confirmable combos. Nobody is going to react and blow up 16f because they see it happening. They might FB the gap (which I think would be well deserved if they did). But giving him a 12f, low, advancing starter that leads to full combos and is safe on block is asking for a lot. It basically means you get a full low starting combo attempt every time you land a d1. b31 2+4 doesn't seem to come out on block, and is super easily confirmed into full combos. Someone feel free to enlighten me, but IDK why it even exists.

F32 should not end in an overhead. I don't really have a good reason as to why, so maybe I'm wrong. It's fairly useful the way that it is, and it just seems like asking for candy just because it sounds good. I don't think it changes much, so maybe in a why not sort of way.

The b2 game seems fine. I honestly prefer to be able to not do it on a strict count and have a mix mini game to play instead. It gives me reasons to set up chops, and end corner combos in chop so I can run the mini game. Granted, I don't think people really know about that mini game until you probably are playing really good people. That is much better people than me. I don't know that I've sensed anyone knowing what I was trying to do, but I still get overhead chop KB's often enough, and that leads to more combo potential (like half your life combos). It's not like SZ slide that just cashes out and that's your damage.

The real issue with b2 is that it's mapped to b2 and there is no buffer on normals. I've done lost count of how many times I've tried to do b12 and had the 1 eaten because I was on the wrong side of block stun. B2 is so negative and stubby that just tossing them out in thin air is Trouble Town, and getting it all the time because you are a frame off sucks.

I think Lighting strike is about what they wanted. It's hard to just toss out there, but I don't think that was ever the idea. It catches jumpers, and does decent chip. There are basically guaranteed chances to use it, like after push and MB bf1. I'm not saying it's a great tool or anything, but it can be useful as long as you don't need it to be Sonya's rings.
 
I think Lighting strike is about what they wanted. It's hard to just toss out there, but I don't think that was ever the idea. It catches jumpers, and does decent chip. There are basically guaranteed chances to use it, like after push and MB bf1. I'm not saying it's a great tool or anything, but it can be useful as long as you don't need it to be Sonya's rings.
-29 tho
 
You are asking for stuff no character has. 1 as a starter, is basically high across the character board. They are supposed to be fast punishers while risking getting low profiled. It is a perfectly viable punish move. Its angle isn't the best, but if the opponent is deep at all, it's an easy KB to get with 121. Youngsters shouldn't have any trouble hit confirming 12 into full combo as well. It's doing its job, and is more or less in line with other characters.

B3 is fine. It has decent advancement, starts low, safe on block, and leads to full hit confirmable combos. Nobody is going to react and blow up 16f because they see it happening. They might FB the gap (which I think would be well deserved if they did). But giving him a 12f, low, advancing starter that leads to full combos and is safe on block is asking for a lot. It basically means you get a full low starting combo attempt every time you land a d1. b31 2+4 doesn't seem to come out on block, and is super easily confirmed into full combos. Someone feel free to enlighten me, but IDK why it even exists.

F32 should not end in an overhead. I don't really have a good reason as to why, so maybe I'm wrong. It's fairly useful the way that it is, and it just seems like asking for candy just because it sounds good. I don't think it changes much, so maybe in a why not sort of way.

The b2 game seems fine. I honestly prefer to be able to not do it on a strict count and have a mix mini game to play instead. It gives me reasons to set up chops, and end corner combos in chop so I can run the mini game. Granted, I don't think people really know about that mini game until you probably are playing really good people. That is much better people than me. I don't know that I've sensed anyone knowing what I was trying to do, but I still get overhead chop KB's often enough, and that leads to more combo potential (like half your life combos). It's not like SZ slide that just cashes out and that's your damage.

The real issue with b2 is that it's mapped to b2 and there is no buffer on normals. I've done lost count of how many times I've tried to do b12 and had the 1 eaten because I was on the wrong side of block stun. B2 is so negative and stubby that just tossing them out in thin air is Trouble Town, and getting it all the time because you are a frame off sucks.

I think Lighting strike is about what they wanted. It's hard to just toss out there, but I don't think that was ever the idea. It catches jumpers, and does decent chip. There are basically guaranteed chances to use it, like after push and MB bf1. I'm not saying it's a great tool or anything, but it can be useful as long as you don't need it to be Sonya's rings.
man if you got videos beating top tier players that are high level I would love to see them. im not being sarcastic but man...id love to see them :)

ya the lightning strike is just an idea, but its so punishable its not even worth it to me. id rather use the air grab but its locked to raijun or whatever
 

Gooberking

Solidly Mediocre
man if you got videos beating top tier players that are high level I would love to see them. im not being sarcastic but man...id love to see them :)

ya the lightning strike is just an idea, but its so punishable its not even worth it to me. id rather use the air grab but its locked to raijun or whatever
Man, Nobody wants to see my lame ass play.

Wasn't saying he is perfect or top tier. More that it was reading like a way to break him to me and less of a way to balance him.