Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

[Black Chapters]

They need to make his Superman KB work on 3rd hit amp from anywhere, get rid of that full screen bs AND it should juggle. Tons of others in this game have a damn juggle or free hit chance after their KB's I'd be all for him having 3 I mean we can only do them once anyway. I would be down for a SC KB too though, that could work too.

would that be a bit much though?

you mean pop up after the slam?

 

[Mandolore1123]

I picked Raijin for it cause it already had current

of the 3 I made, I'd probably like Truth and Light the most, so lets put it there, examples of additions

Lightning Storm as is is total balls, the 3 attack allows you to avoid an attack at the height of the flip but beyond that both 1 and 2 attacks recover slow and theres pretty much no combos with it. He should've just got normal air moves like everyone else. Even when hes floating, projectiles can hit him, theres 0 benefit to how it works now.

Rolling Thunder is fine, but theres no combination of moves that makes it worth it, the best I found was Storm Cell with Quick charge, but its overall just fucking boring.

Jo Push and Superbolt should be deleted in general, just dull and useless moves. Superbolt should actually just be redone as a normal in a string cause I do like the Superman Punch part of it, maybe make it his new b2 overhead, you can still charge it and it avoids lows and will activate a KB on a counter hit. Actually the Jo Push launcher should also be a normal, or even his uppercut.

The idea for new Lightning Rod is similar to Captain Cold's dome only it does chip damage only and doesn't freeze, giving Rolling Thunder better use as well. The Lightning Rod conductor move is beyond shit, if it went full screen or the rod lasted longer than maybe but adding to that both of Raiden's Lightning moves are so slow anyway.

I'm willing to back off allowing a MB on Storm Cell, the teleport additions are basically what Shinnok had in X though, that combined with Storm Cell could lead to some cool shit.

With Raijin, I still feel that Quick Charge should act as Flame Fist does and power Raiden's punches and lightning attacks. I always viewed Electric Current as an ugly move, Raiden can easily shoot the lightning from his hands. Burst's only real use is to have a safe ender, thats weak. Honestly you could make its MB move a stun, slightly increase the radius of the lightning and shock the opponent and stun them for follow up. Then you can use Electric Current as a regular low projectile similar to Lightning Bolt only the MB shoots 2 low bolts. And discharge works the same way.

All of this is not just about giving him more options, its about making this more appealing to watch, a character like Raiden should not look this dull.



Updating KBs

Thunder Fly KB is reverted back to normal, works on MB in the air.
Throw KB now activated if opponent failed throw escape during previous throw.
New KB for b2 is now on a punish and causes damage overtime.
Summon Lightning can KB if Quick Charge is activated in Raijin.
MB Air Stomp can KB in Truth and Light if the opponent is ducking, causes a pop up.
MB Lightning Strike can KB if the Rod is also out in Truth and Light.
Thunder Wave now has a Storm Cell KB if you counter with a MB'd Storm Cell, meaning you start the combo with MB Storm Cell.

The only thing I really disagree with is the safe launcher you’re giving Raijin. Slam shouldn’t give a stun on MB.
As for QC adding more damage to his punch attacks, sure I guess but Raijin already does pretty substantial chip by himself. Every DF2 is guaranteed 2% chip and you can still add the strings and other hits on top.
The ideas for Kustom moves I can’t comment because I don’t dabble in them but I like the idea of giving Raiden more options for float. I would have wanted float for TL honestly. I also think it would be cool if Raiden could have some float combos (albeit somewhat different than what Sindel has) if they do change up float.

 

[MKF30]

would that be a bit much though?

you mean pop up after the slam?

Yeah, I mean if they want to keep it the way it is at least give him a juggle since most matches with raiden regardless of variation you're not going to get all his kbs. Know what i mean? Or they can just make his superman one easier. Look at kabal, scorpion, baraka and anyone else with multiple easy kbs compared to Raidens lol. It's just a suggestion of course no worries nrs won't do it anyway.

 

[Black Chapters]

The only thing I really disagree with is the safe launcher you’re giving Raijin. Slam shouldn’t give a stun on MB.
As for QC adding more damage to his punch attacks, sure I guess but Raijin already does pretty substantial chip by himself. Every DF2 is guaranteed 2% chip and you can still add the strings and other hits on top.
The ideas for Kustom moves I can’t comment because I don’t dabble in them but I like the idea of giving Raiden more options for float. I would have wanted float for TL honestly. I also think it would be cool if Raiden could have some float combos (albeit somewhat different than what Sindel has) if they do change up float.

I never said the MB would be safe

only the regular one would be with QC

The only thing I really disagree with is the safe launcher you’re giving Raijin. Slam shouldn’t give a stun on MB.
As for QC adding more damage to his punch attacks, sure I guess but Raijin already does pretty substantial chip by himself. Every DF2 is guaranteed 2% chip and you can still add the strings and other hits on top.
The ideas for Kustom moves I can’t comment because I don’t dabble in them but I like the idea of giving Raiden more options for float. I would have wanted float for TL honestly. I also think it would be cool if Raiden could have some float combos (albeit somewhat different than what Sindel has) if they do change up float.

Lightning Storm puts him in a bad position, its too slow and hes too big, aside from the stomp hes easily hit. If its made like Sindel then maybe but he should've already had it.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I never said the MB would be safe

only the regular one would be with QC

So he can block confirm into a safe special that resets neutral and hit confirm into a AMP launcher for damage. That's a safe launcher. That's actually probably more busted than making storm cell safe on Amp because at least in storm cell you have to guess. With your suggestion they can't even guess. Raijin is always safe and he can also always launch you on hit confirm. The only thing storm cell has over this move is that storm cell jails from pokes, this one does not.

 

[kabelfritz]

just found out how good s32 is when cornered and the opponent is at sweep distance. it works best when they used an attack with big pushback on block to bait counterpoking and punish it with an advancing attack. raiden leans back his body is in a way that protects his hurtbox on the first hit and moves forward to punish possible whiffs with the second. the fact that the 3 is a high doesnt really matter because theyll be in a high state when they advance/attack you. can only be 100% beaten by low hitbox attacks or such without hurtbox, but not many chars can get combos of those.

 

[Mandolore1123]

just found out how good s32 is when cornered and the opponent is at sweep distance. it works best when they used an attack with big pushback on block to bait counterpoking and punish it with an advancing attack. raiden leans back his body is in a way that protects his hurtbox on the first hit and moves forward to punish possible whiffs with the second. the fact that the 3 is a high doesnt really matter because theyll be in a high state when they advance/attack you. can only be 100% beaten by low hitbox attacks or such without hurtbox, but not many chars can get combos of those.

You mean when Raiden is cornered or when Raiden is cornering opponents?
Not sure what you mean by punishing counterpokes

 

[kabelfritz]

You mean when Raiden is cornered or when Raiden is cornering opponents?
Not sure what you mean by punishing counterpokes

when raiden is cornered.

punishing counterpokes: think of johnny cage: hes up close to you in the corner and goes d4 (sub-zeros d4 is another example), which can be quickly followed by f3 or the low string. d4 is only so slightly negative on block that only Raidens fastest moves like pokes could force johnny into block, but they cant because they are too short for the pushback d4 creates (i hope i am correct about cages d4, but i think the idea is clear). if you attempt to counterpoke anyway, youre likely to whiff and get punished by cages advancing normals. other quick, ranged punishers of raiden like f3 might still get stuffed by Johnnys advancing mids because of the way the hit- and hurtboxes move.

s3 comes into play here because Johnny is likely to advance and be in a high state after d4 or the likes. as Raidens s3 moves his hurtbox slightly backwards and also lifts the front leg, its likely that you hit his advancing normal before he hits you, or at least get a trade. if he abuses a high string like 124 by whiffing the 1 on purpose to hit you with the following advancing mids, 32 will also beat that. you will start the 3 before he does the 1 and both will whiff, but your advancing 2 will hit him before his advancing 2 comes out.

a bit complicated but i hope its clear, its not like a braindead or guaranteed thing but situationally really good to get out of corner pressure as 32 is also safe, can anti-air and is hitconfirmable, even into some stage interactions in the corner.

 

[MKF30]

This game is cancer in the corner as in most of the time you will die if your back is to the corner so I'll take anything I can get. Nice @kabelfritz appreciate the find

 

[Mandolore1123]

when raiden is cornered.

punishing counterpokes: think of johnny cage: hes up close to you in the corner and goes d4 (sub-zeros d4 is another example), which can be quickly followed by f3 or the low string. d4 is only so slightly negative on block that only Raidens fastest moves like pokes could force johnny into block, but they cant because they are too short for the pushback d4 creates (i hope i am correct about cages d4, but i think the idea is clear). if you attempt to counterpoke anyway, youre likely to whiff and get punished by cages advancing normals. other quick, ranged punishers of raiden like f3 might still get stuffed by Johnnys advancing mids because of the way the hit- and hurtboxes move.

s3 comes into play here because Johnny is likely to advance and be in a high state after d4 or the likes. as Raidens s3 moves his hurtbox slightly backwards and also lifts the front leg, its likely that you hit his advancing normal before he hits you, or at least get a trade. if he abuses a high string like 124 by whiffing the 1 on purpose to hit you with the following advancing mids, 32 will also beat that. you will start the 3 before he does the 1 and both will whiff, but your advancing 2 will hit him before his advancing 2 comes out.

a bit complicated but i hope its clear, its not like a braindead or guaranteed thing but situationally really good to get out of corner pressure as 32 is also safe, can anti-air and is hitconfirmable, even into some stage interactions in the corner.

That’s actually really interesting. Will need to lab this. Definitely comes in handy because Raiden’s D4 is on the slow side. I know that S3 makes certain pokes whiff because Raiden lifts up his leg (like how Jacqui’s F3 causes our D3 to whiff) but didn’t know you can use S32 like this. Is also nice because S32 is our optimal damage starter which can be hit-confirmed. Nice find mate.

 

[Mandolore1123]

That’s actually really interesting. Will need to lab this. Definitely comes in handy because Raiden’s D4 is on the slow side. I know that S3 makes certain pokes whiff because Raiden lifts up his leg (like how Jacqui’s F3 causes our D3 to whiff) but didn’t know you can use S32 like this. Is also nice because S32 is our optimal damage starter which can be hit-confirmed. Nice find mate.

@Trustful_Whale @Marlow this is worth looking into no?

 

[Marlow]

@Trustful_Whale @Marlow this is worth looking into no?

Certainly worth looking into.

So if I'm understanding the issue, it's that when the Raiden player blocks a D4 from someone like Cage while in the corner, the D4 can sometimes create enough space between the Cage and Raiden that if Raiden goes to counter attack with a button (since it's his turn due to most D4's being something like -6 or -7 on block) that button can come up short and whiff and get caught by Cage doing a follow up string. So with 32, I'm guessing the idea is 3 can catch Cage if Cage advances too quick, and finishing into the 2 can catch Cage's follow up or delayed string. 32 is also only -3 on block, so if the Cage just blocks Raiden is still safe.

It definitely has the makings of a solid counter play attempt if you have a good read on what the other player is going to do. Great find.

 

[Marlow]

That could also help out T&L a bit, since if you can hit confirm 32 into Jo Push you can probably change sides and corner the opponent.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

I agree with what Marlow said, so I won't add anything.

 

[kabelfritz]

1st time ever i got an electric flight trade xD. i played another raijin and we both wanted to catch the other doing quick charge at the rounds start.

 

[Deleted member 5032]

Can someone explain to me why Raijin is considered better than Thunder Wave (or whatever the 1st variation is called)? I feel like I'm missing something with that charge move. It comes out fast once charged, but does it actually lead to anything? Does it enhance anything other than his blocking and db4?

 

[Marinjuana]

Can someone explain to me why Raijin is considered better than Thunder Wave (or whatever the 1st variation is called)? I feel like I'm missing something with that charge move. It comes out fast once charged, but does it actually lead to anything? Does it enhance anything other than his blocking and db4?

Well you didn't specifically mention discharge so I feel the need to point out then after blocking three attacks with Quick Charge buff up, the move turns into Discharge, which is the fastest move in the game, being able to punish gaps in strings that other characters may have no options for. Quick Charge also reduces chip damage like I think you mentioned.

His DF2(?) burst move becomes safe when he has Quick Charge up, so he has a safe special to cancel his strings into as well as combos from DB4.

 

[Deleted member 5032]

Well you didn't specifically mention discharge so I feel the need to point out then after blocking three attacks with Quick Charge buff up, the move turns into Discharge, which is the fastest move in the game, being able to punish gaps in strings that other characters may have no options for. Quick Charge also reduces chip damage like I think you mentioned.

His DF2(?) burst move becomes safe when he has Quick Charge up, so he has a safe special to cancel his strings into as well as combos from DB4.

Ah, ok, didn't know it made df2 safe. It's almost like they should include this information in the game...

That said, what's so special about a fast move that doesn't lead to anything? Like, I get that he can interrupt certain strings and punish otherwise safe moves, but isn't it like 6% damage with no kombo potential? Just don't see why I would want to give up a teleport and one of the easiest kombo-konversion moves to pick that up. And with meter he can already make any string safe with superman cancels.

 

[MKF30]

Ah, ok, didn't know it made df2 safe. It's almost like they should include this information in the game...

That said, what's so special about a fast move that doesn't lead to anything? Like, I get that he can interrupt certain strings and punish otherwise safe moves, but isn't it like 6% damage with no kombo potential? Just don't see why I would want to give up a teleport and one of the easiest kombo-konversion moves to pick that up. And with meter he can already make any string safe with superman cancels.

Rajin is a solid variation, to me honestly I think it's only considered "better" than TW because he has safer moves and good damage. He does have weaknesses though, as in he can easily be zoned out and loses mobility unlike TW. I use TW a lot because well for one, to me Raiden isn't Raiden without his teleport. Notice Scorpion, Noob, Cetrion and everyone else in the game keeps their teleports....except Raiden throughout all variations lol. Which still pisses me off that NRS did that. His teleport also makes for great head games, going in and out, cancelling strings into teleports, teleports into other teleports close, far etc. I had a guy rage quit on me the other day doing this lol. I made him follow me with Liu Kang all over. He must have gotten real pissed.

 

[kabelfritz]

i think thunder wave might be a better all round char, he doesnt really have terrible matchups due to teleport. but raijin is imo the stronger variation outside of a few terrible matchups because of his safeness and discharge.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

Ah, ok, didn't know it made df2 safe. It's almost like they should include this information in the game...

That said, what's so special about a fast move that doesn't lead to anything? Like, I get that he can interrupt certain strings and punish otherwise safe moves, but isn't it like 6% damage with no kombo potential? Just don't see why I would want to give up a teleport and one of the easiest kombo-konversion moves to pick that up. And with meter he can already make any string safe with superman cancels.

It's a move so fast that it is able to interrupt and punish things that nobody else in the game can punish, so that's pretty good on its own. The other benefit is Raiden gets a full screen knockdown when using amped Discharge, giving him a free opportunity to reapply Quick Charge and go back in.
Having a "get off me" move like this is no small thing.
Regular discharge can restand if the opponent is airborne, leaving Raiden +5. So while it doesn't lead to anything via amplify, it can definitely lead to things using the restand, which can be combo'd into in the corner.
As an anti air tool this move is also very useful for awkward jumps behind Raiden's head that would otherwise be difficult to reach using amped Discharge which creates a rainbow hitbox around Raiden, making it a good tool against the likes of Upgrades Jacqui or other highly aerial characters.

Raijin also gets access to Summoned Lightning, which is one of the best anti air specials in the game allowing Raiden to control the entire top half of the screen (although it falls short just before full screen range).

These benefits, including making df2 safe on block, are what makes Raijin strong. While there's nothing wrong with using Thunder Wave, I would also like to point out that Raijin doesn't actually get zoned out all that easy. If your anti zone fundamentals are strong you can apply Quick Charge and make your way forward like a grappler using block n walk, taking a lot less chip than a normal character. Raiden is the only character in the game who can do this.
It's certainly more challenging than just teleporting behind someone to get in, but with patience Raijin can get in just fine against pretty much everyone.

Only character I struggle getting in against is Zonya.

 

[Black Chapters]

So he can block confirm into a safe special that resets neutral and hit confirm into a AMP launcher for damage. That's a safe launcher. That's actually probably more busted than making storm cell safe on Amp because at least in storm cell you have to guess. With your suggestion they can't even guess. Raijin is always safe and he can also always launch you on hit confirm. The only thing storm cell has over this move is that storm cell jails from pokes, this one does not.

Ok so:

Electric Current is now a low projectile, gets a damage boost from Quick Charge. EX version is two shots.
Electric Burst no longer has a safe version with Quick Charge but still gets a damage boost, EX version is a stun as stated before.
Quick Charge still powers up lightning based and hand based attacks, discharge is the same.
Also Quick Charge no longer dies when you hit a KB, the fuck is that?

 

[MKF30]

i think thunder wave might be a better all round char, he doesnt really have terrible matchups due to teleport. but raijin is imo the stronger variation outside of a few terrible matchups because of his safeness and discharge.

Agreed. Raijin has a better shot vs higher tiers though still struggles where TW is more versatile. His third is arguably bottom 3 in the game easily.

 

[Mandolore1123]

And with meter he can already make any string safe with superman cancels

He's not exactly safe. He just moves away from opponents trying to jab punish his unsafe stuff but he's vulnerable to longer range moves. He's super negative off every cancel, at least -10 (you can get down to -8 if you're doing it instantly). However, in Raijin, once he has quick charge active, DF2 is completely safe and pushes the opponent back to starting screen distance, essentially resetting the neutral while leaving Raiden completely safe. The only way you can stop this is if you flawless block the gap between DF2 and the string (but this only works for certain strings).

 

[Deleted member 5032]

He's not exactly safe. He just moves away from opponents trying to jab punish his unsafe stuff but he's vulnerable to longer range moves. He's super negative off every cancel, at least -10 (you can get down to -8 if you're doing it instantly). However, in Raijin, once he has quick charge active, DF2 is completely safe and pushes the opponent back to starting screen distance, essentially resetting the neutral while leaving Raiden completely safe. The only way you can stop this is if you flawless block the gap between DF2 and the string (but this only works for certain strings).

I'd still consider it safe due to the distance and the threat of letting it fly. I'm sure some characters can punish if you get predictable, but so far I've yet to be punished doing it.

I'm not at home to check, but how much damage does it do on hit? Something as simple and hit-confirmable as f4~superman does around 16% with all that amazing corner carry. I'm still just not seeing enough reasons to give up a teleport and such a good conversion tool.