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Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

Arqwart

Lean, mean, and +14
I'm referring to his buff moves that make him viable but regarding your question, referring to the first part especially. Gapless, always safe special? lol you just answered your own question. Because in his other 2 he has none of that and thus takes more skill to win. There are no gimmicks. I'm not saying it's bad, you're acting as if I said it's bad. Just saying a lot of people ride on Raijin but I would take his TW anyday over it. The main reason? Raijin gets zoned out BAD, unlike TW which can't be zoned out. I don't mind him having pop ups but he should have had that in the first place. Look at how many other characters have launchers in strings or normals? But yeah, not saying Rajin is bad I just prefer his TW overall and his third well...you need to say a prayer for that to work lol. I'm not telling you that Raijin sucks or not to use it, just saying it's not without it's flaws.
And I at no point said anything about good/bad. I'm just wondering what your definition of a gimmick is because a safe block special is not a gimmick to me. A gimmick is something that has nothing to do with the player using the gimmick. It's something that's generally unsafe or "fake" and only really works a couple times due to the opponent's lack of knowledge. A safe block special doesn't fit this bill as it's inherently consistent.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
TW definitely has no gimmicks, it could use some though lol

And I at no point said anything about good/bad. I'm just wondering what your definition of a gimmick is because a safe block special is not a gimmick to me. A gimmick is something that has nothing to do with the player using the gimmick. It's something that's generally unsafe or "fake" and only really works a couple times due to the opponent's lack of knowledge. A safe block special doesn't fit this bill as it's inherently consistent.
Gimmick is a relative term. To me it has gimmicks only when you compare them to his other 2 variations such as moves to make moves safe when he could have safe moves to begin with like several other characters. It fits in regard to what I'm speaking of. I'm not saying he doesnt need or anything of course i mean hes low tier after. If people start to believe its dumb as in op element then it comes off as gimmicky. A gimmick can be anything that the character has to abuse, exploit or may be questionable to give them an edge. Some are bigger than others obviously.
 
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Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
Gimmick is a relative term. To me it has gimmicks only when you compare them to his other 2 variations such as moves to make moves safe when he could have safe moves to begin with like several other characters. It fits in regard to what I'm speaking of. I'm not saying he doesnt need or anything of course i mean hes low tier after. If people start to believe its dumb as in op element then it comes off as gimmicky. A gimmick can be anything that the character has to abuse, exploit or may be questionable to give them an edge. Some are bigger than others obviously.
This is not what a gimmick means. There is a clear definition of what a gimmick actually is.
Gimmick = “something that is not serious or of real value that is used to attract people's attention or interest temporarily, especially to make them buy something”

In fighting games. It means something that is working when it shouldn’t, usually in the context of a mixup. There is a guaranteed way to get out of the mix-up, but the reason people get hit is due to the opponent’s ignorance and lack of MU knowledge. Examples include doing Kotal’s unblockable after any string on block, or doing unblockable in any situation outside of specific set-ups. Raijin has no gimmicks. The only way to interrupt and potentially punish DF2 on block is to flawless block the gap and only in select strings.

Here’s a video explaining what gimmicks ACTUALLY mean:
Don’t use your own made-up and wrong definitions of certain terms in discussion.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
This is not what a gimmick means. There is a clear definition of what a gimmick actually is.
Gimmick = “something that is not serious or of real value that is used to attract people's attention or interest temporarily, especially to make them buy something”

In fighting games. It means something that is working when it shouldn’t, usually in the context of a mixup. There is a guaranteed way to get out of the mix-up, but the reason people get hit is due to the opponent’s ignorance and lack of MU knowledge. Examples include doing Kotal’s unblockable after any string on block, or doing unblockable in any situation outside of specific set-ups. Raijin has no gimmicks. The only way to interrupt and potentially punish DF2 on block is to flawless block the gap and only in select strings.

Here’s a video explaining what gimmicks ACTUALLY mean:
Don’t use your own made-up and wrong definitions of certain terms in discussion.
Incorrect. The definition of the word gimmick.



gimmick
noun
https://www.merriam-webster.com/login

gim·mick | \ ˈgi-mik \
Definition of gimmick
(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: a mechanical device for secretly and dishonestly controlling gambling apparatus
b: an ingenious or novel mechanical device : GADGET
2a: an important feature that is not immediately apparent : CATCH… few readers would look for a gimmick in an advertisement featuring airline schedules, but few would fail to look for the fine print in an ad announcing New Low-Price Fares.— Robert L. Heilbroner
b: an ingenious and usually new scheme or angleEven in professional careers, mere competence and craftsmanship is no substitute for a gimmick.— James Poniewozik
c: a trick or device used to attract business or attentiona marketing gimmick
gimmick
verb
gimmicked; gimmicking; gimmicks
Definition of gimmick (Entry 2 of 2)
transitive verb
1: to alter or influence by means of a gimmick
2: to provide with a gimmick —often used with up

a gimmick
can mean various things for one. Two as I said earlier its relative, some people see the switch and Wii as gimmicky but are wrong g as their features are key and very I portent tongue games play.

Stop trying to redefine the word to your narrative. Raijin has gimmicks compared to the other two variations because they could have given him safe pop ups without having g to "buff" his move set this it's a gimmick to try to attract people to want to use him. Btw can you post gameplay showing what you mean then we'll talk.

No need to be scared unless you're afraid of being judged?
 
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Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
Incorrect. The definition of the word gimmick.



gimmick
noun
https://www.merriam-webster.com/login

gim·mick | \ ˈgi-mik \
Definition of gimmick
(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: a mechanical device for secretly and dishonestly controlling gambling apparatus
b: an ingenious or novel mechanical device : GADGET
2a: an important feature that is not immediately apparent : CATCH… few readers would look for a gimmick in an advertisement featuring airline schedules, but few would fail to look for the fine print in an ad announcing New Low-Price Fares.— Robert L. Heilbroner
b: an ingenious and usually new scheme or angleEven in professional careers, mere competence and craftsmanship is no substitute for a gimmick.— James Poniewozik
c: a trick or device used to attract business or attentiona marketing gimmick
gimmick
verb
gimmicked; gimmicking; gimmicks
Definition of gimmick (Entry 2 of 2)
transitive verb
1: to alter or influence by means of a gimmick
2: to provide with a gimmick —often used with up

a gimmick
can mean various things for one. Two as I said earlier its relative, some people see the switch and Wii as gimmicky but are wrong g as their features are key and very I portent tongue games play.

Stop trying to redefine the word to your narrative. Raijin has gimmicks compared to the other two variations because they could have given him safe pop ups without having g to "buff" his move set this it's a gimmick to try to attract people to want to use him. Btw can you post gameplay showing what you mean then we'll talk.

No need to be scared unless you're afraid of being judged?
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/gimmick
Not scared at all. I’ve even shown you a video of what gimmicks mean in fighting games. NRS buffing Raijin was no “trick or device to attract more people to use him” NOTHING about Raijin fits the Merriam-Webster dictionary OR the Cambridge English dictionary (which was the definition quoted in the K&M video). It certainly does not fit the fighting game definition, where there is a guaranteed way to get out of the move but people get hit because of lac of MU knowledge. It’s pretty clear there are only certain ways and certain conditions to get out of DF2. In other string it’s completely safe and a legit way to mix people up.

You are the only one who’s trying and failing to redefine a word to fit your narrative.
Gimmick is a relative term. To me...
This is called redefining a term. To say “to me” means that you are trying to say what a word means in your opinion, which can be any number of things. This doesn’t work in a discussion because there has to be a commonly agreed definition before any term is used. You clearly don’t even know what a gimmick is, that’s why you erroneously pointed out that DF2 is a gimmick, and someone else corrected you.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/gimmick
Not scared at all. I’ve even shown you a video of what gimmicks mean in fighting games. NRS buffing Raijin was no “trick or device to attract more people to use him” NOTHING about Raijin fits the Merriam-Webster dictionary OR the Cambridge English dictionary (which was the definition quoted in the K&M video). It certainly does not fit the fighting game definition, where there is a guaranteed way to get out of the move but people get hit because of lac of MU knowledge. It’s pretty clear there are only certain ways and certain conditions to get out of DF2. In other string it’s completely safe and a legit way to mix people up.

You are the only one who’s trying and failing to redefine a word to fit your narrative.

This is called redefining a term. To say “to me” means that you are trying to say what a word means in your opinion, which can be any number of things. This doesn’t work in a discussion because there has to be a commonly agreed definition before any term is used. You clearly don’t even know what a gimmick is, that’s why you erroneously pointed out that DF2 is a gimmick, and someone else corrected you.
Mirriam has been official forever bro, and you're literally repeating nearly everything I said already with a different coat of paint except for a few things. Thanks for proving my point.

Just curious to see some from you since you're often one of the first to criticize but never showed gameplay yourself. But it's ok nobody wants to be judge, it's always easier to judge.
It actually does but it's ok to agree to disagree. Besides, the word as I've pointed out has different meanings. Mk 11 is full of gimmicks when you compared to previous titles.

Match up knowledge is key but there will always be some gimmicks in this game regardless of the match up. Raiden in raijin will have a much better shot vs geras than his other 2 variations. However it's because he has stronger tools and buffs to make him safer. Some would call that a gimmick that has to be utilized though I will agree with you ultimately since hes still lower and dont see him winning anything anytime soon so he needs all he can get.

Sorry, but you dont speak for the entire mkc or fg. That's your opinion, not a fact which you seem to have trouble differentiating I've noticed. Your opinion which in happen to disagree with, mk 11 has tons of gimmicks, broken elements and things that are inconsistent compared to past MKs this is a fact. I dont know what you're talking about but nobody ever corrected me as I never said df 2 was a gimmick. The only thing I've ever said about d2 is it was a good zoning tool. So clearly you're mixed up with someone else. See, even you make mistakes
 
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Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
Mirriam has been official forever bro.

Just curious to see some from you since you're often one of the first to criticize but never showed gameplay yourself. But it's ok nobody wants to be judge, it's always easier to judge.
It actually does but it's ok to agree to disagree. Besides, the word as I've pointed out has different meanings. Mk 11 is full of gimmicks when you compared to previous titles.

Match up knowledge is key but there will always be some gimmicks in this game regardless of the match up. Raiden in raijin will have a much better shot vs geras than his other 2 variations. However it's because he has stronger tools and buffs to make him safer. Some would call that a gimmick that has to be utilized though I will agree with you ultimately since hes still lower and dont see him winning anything anytime soon so he needs all he can get.

Sorry, but you dont speak for the entire mkc or fg. That's your opinion, not a fact which you seem to have trouble differentiating I've noticed. Your opinion which in happen to disagree with, mk 11 has tons of gimmicks, broken elements and things that are inconsistent compared to past MKs this is a fact. I dont know what you're talking about but nobody ever corrected me as I never said df 2 was a gimmick. The only thing I've ever said about d2 is it was a good zoning tool. So clearly you're mixed up with someone else. See, even you make mistakes
I wasn’t the first to judge your misuse of the English language, Arqwart was. Learn to count.
I don’t speak for the entire FGC, but there are definitions that people adhere to, like the video I showed you. You are the only one spouting your own opinion like it’s fact when you’re blatantly wrong.

How is having a gapless, always-safe special and the ability to punish strings you block a gimmick? Not to mention the variation has a popup so it does just the same damage as TW.
I'm referring to his buff moves that make him viable but regarding your question, referring to the first part especially. Gapless, always safe special? lol you just answered your own question.
Someone asks you a question on how a gap-less, safe special is a gimmick, and You reply that the fact that it is gap-less and always safe means that it is a gimmick (which is your response when saying other people have answered their own question, meaning the answer is within their question). I’m not getting mixed up with someone else. You’re not reading your own posts
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
I wasn’t the first to judge your misuse of the English language, Arqwart was. Learn to count.
I don’t speak for the entire FGC, but there are definitions that people adhere to, like the video I showed you. You are the only one spouting your own opinion like it’s fact when you’re blatantly wrong.



Someone asks you a question on how a gap-less, safe special is a gimmick, and You reply that the fact that it is gap-less and always safe means that it is a gimmick (which is your response when saying other people have answered their own question, meaning the answer is within their question). I’m not getting mixed up with someone else. You’re not reading your own posts
Too bad I didnt misuse it to begin with. I was at the top of my class fyi in English, thank you very much. I could teach you a thing or two. Stick to math, since numbers seem to be your forte. No, he didnt he disputed why it wasn't a gimmick as he said nothing about the English language, learn to read.

Nope, like I said if you actually read more carefully you'd see you're weong. I said several times its MY OPINION, NOT FACT. Do you not know what "fact"means? If not I'll help you out since you seem to confuse facts with opinion. You're the one who speak a like your word is fact when it's not and like I said you dont speak for everyone so stop. I know its hard for someone as arrogant as you're but newsflash, you dont know everything kid.

Actually, yeah I am reading my own posts but when someone clearly literally answers their own question why ask? He doesnt even use Raiden last time I checked, hes a dvorah player. His post was most likely to instigate as he doesnt have a rep for posting in this thread so get off his balls and let others debate themselves.
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
Too bad I didnt misuse it to begin with. I was at the top of my class fyi in English, thank you very much. I could teach a thing or two. Stick to math. No, he didnt he disputed why it wasn't a gimmick as he said nothing about the English language, learn to read.

Nope, like I said learn to read. I said several times its MY OPINION. Do you not know what that means? I'd not I'll help you out since you seem to confuse facts with opinion. You're the one who speak a like your word is fact when it's not and like I said you dont speak for everyone so stop. I know its hard for someone as arrogant as you're but newsflash, you dont know everything kid.

Actually, yeah I am reading my own posts but when someone clearly literally answers their own question why ask? He doesnt even use Raiden last time I checked, hes a dvorah player. His post was most likely to instigate as he doesnt have a rep for posting in this thread so get off his balls and let others debate themselves.
You’re right. I don’t know everything. I just know that your definition of what a gimmick is and how it pertains to Raijin is wrong.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
Mandorlore: Sorry you feel that way, you're entitled to your opinion though. But an opinion can't be wrong just because you feel it's wrong is your opinion on my opinion, doesn't make it wrong though. Like if I say I enjoy MOS and you say you hated it, it's not a fact because that's your opinion just like mine isn't I just prefer it being a DC fan and seeing a more unsure, grounded Superman as oppose to "oh hey random alien with powers automatically cheerful in dark, pessimistic world" totally realistic when it's not.

I'm not sure you got my point and have the wrong definition of the word gimmick as you're ignoring the alternate meanings that I posted earlier.

However, we can agree to disagree.
 
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wow i just found out what they did to electric burst with quick charge up ... looks like raijin is finally up there in the dumb tier :DOGE
Welcome to many moons ago, haha.

How is having a gapless, always-safe special and the ability to punish strings you block a gimmick? Not to mention the variation has a popup so it does just the same damage as TW.
Burst has a gap after d1, unlike Storm Cell which is obviously hella unsafe, unless you meant after his regular block strings?
Also, Raijin actually slightly out damages TW outside of KB combos which TW is better at.

That said, I agree with what you're trying to say. I've heard several pros that main Raiden have all moved back to TW though I'm not entirely sure as to why.
My best guess at the moment is perhaps the utility given from teleport, and convenience of a launcher like Storm Cell that doesn't require upkeep is perhaps more attractive at the moment. Could just be a play style preference thing as both variations clearly have their strengths and weaknessses.

As much as I love teleporting, I prefer the safety and defense afforded by Quick Charge. Being the only character in the game (so far) that has a mechanic to reduce chip damage that also stacks with the game's universal chip mitigation is actually insane just by itself, which is before we even look at it also having the fastest reversal in the game with an absurd effective range. Honestly, if it didn't already enhance two other equipped moves I would think Quick Charge, out of any ability in the game, should be 2-slots.

If I had my way I would make Spark Port 1-slot and shove Rolling Thunder into TW, updated to follow the opponent on amp or otherwise not move at all. Then I think TW would feel more complete.
 
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MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
@MKF30

in fighting games i also know the word "gimmick" as something thats actually unsafe/not that good but will work due to opponents lack of knowledge or confusion by mixups. for raijin, d1~electric burst would be a gimmick. something like f4~electric burst is just really good but no gimmick.
I agree with your first example namely. I was pointing out earlier or what I meant like when he uses the buff and is safer, has more damage compared to him without it he's like a different character you know what I mean. I have no issues with F4 into EB, hell he needs it lol. I think it's a bigger issue with characters like Geras, Jacqui etc than Raiden in this game. I've played Raijin it's fun, just don't fit my personal style being a zoner and I hate how he can be outzoned in that variation as good as it is. I enjoy TW hehe I'm one of those classic MK Raiden guys that must have the teleport. lol
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
Welcome to many moons ago, haha.


Burst has a gap after d1, unlike Storm Cell which is obviously hella unsafe, unless you meant after his regular block strings?
Also, Raijin actually slightly out damages TW outside of KB combos which TW is better at.

That said, I agree with what you're trying to say. I've heard several pros that main Raiden have all moved back to TW though I'm not entirely sure as to why.
My best guess at the moment is perhaps the utility given from teleport, and convenience of a launcher like Storm Cell that doesn't require upkeep is perhaps more attractive at the moment. Could just be a play style preference thing as both variations clearly have their strengths and weaknessses.

As much as I love teleporting, I prefer the safety and defense afforded by Quick Charge. Being the only character in the game (so far) that has a mechanic to reduce chip damage that also stacks with the game's universal chip mitigation is actually insane just by itself, which is before we even look at it also having the fastest reversal in the game with an absurd effective range. Honestly, if it didn't already enhance two other equipped moves I would think Quick Charge, out of any ability in the game, should be 2-slots.

If I had my way I would make Spark Port 1-slot and shove Rolling Thunder into TW, updated to follow the opponent on amp or otherwise not move at all. Then I think TW would feel more complete.
I actually forgot about that yeah. Pretty much the only gimmick Raijin has is doing poke~DF2, which has a huge that that ppl can and should be interrupting. Though spacing a D4 might be enough to make a trade/beat poke interrupts iirc.
Also just to clarify, Fox has pretty much never touched TW from my understanding. He was always only interested in Raijin. Dalphanate and PI though have indeed moved back to TW.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
While it would be nice to have kustoms, it unfortunately wouldn't make a difference for Raiden without his specials getting a hard look at.
While that may be true, I would wager he'd still be better than any of his current variations in this particular case. He couldn't be any worse off than his 3rd variation.

yup

most of them are ass
lol. Yeah, I mean a buff here, there could help for sure. Was thinking, you know it would be interesting if say the 3 lowest characters in the game only, had kustoms allowed by players to make a variation themselves that they could use. I'm sure some would say this would make it broken, but just for the lowest characters in the game, say in Raiden's case I think it would make things more interesting honestly.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
While it would be nice to have kustoms, it unfortunately wouldn't make a difference for Raiden without his specials getting a hard look at.
It would encourage them to make the Superman Punch and the floating Raiden special better!

I will say that I think Raiden has three well conceived variations. About as interesting of variety as you'll find on any character with their variations. He just might need some universal polish to his kit.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
It would encourage them to make the Superman Punch and the floating Raiden special better!

I will say that I think Raiden has three well conceived variations. About as interesting of variety as you'll find on any character with their variations. He just might need some universal polish to his kit.
Superman punch? You talking about F2?
 
It would encourage them to make the Superman Punch and the floating Raiden special better!

I will say that I think Raiden has three well conceived variations. About as interesting of variety as you'll find on any character with their variations. He just might need some universal polish to his kit.
I agree that it would motivate them to rebalance those moves.

I disagree that his 3rd variation is well conceived at all; I keep saying it but putting two abilities together that directly conflict with each other is an automatic fail, and then as a bonus we also lose our best move. It needs a lot of work.

Superman punch? You talking about F2?
It's a move called Super Bolt, replaces fly with a flying punch move that does almost the exact same thing as regular fly only it can't be used in the air and is just as unsafe on block so apart from a slight oki reversal there's no purpose to taking this when we already get a better move for free.
It needs big changes.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
Yeah once it wasnt f2 I figured it was a custom move. I haven't touched the customs in months once they announced that we cant use them competitively.

Nah, he has this one special move in kustoms that replaces Superman and it's this charged up aerial "Superman punch". But it's unsafe and has a gimmicky KB so it seems like ass
Oh ok lol was going to be my next question. If it was a custom move. Makes sense. So many custom.moves in this game either suck or are good but not in a tourney variation.
 

SparkySanders

Dig it, you must
Man two weeks into launch I messed around with super bolt with a custom variation and I couldn’t even understand why they even made such a move.. never mind with a super gimmicky kb, and a brutal.

major wasted potential across the board with any custom moves for raiden