Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

[Mandolore1123]

I'd still consider it safe due to the distance and the threat of letting it fly. I'm sure some characters can punish if you get predictable, but so far I've yet to be punished doing it.

I'm not at home to check, but how much damage does it do on hit? Something as simple and hit-confirmable as f4~superman does around 16% with all that amazing corner carry. I'm still just not seeing enough reasons to give up a teleport and such a good conversion tool.

If you need to threaten it it means you will be at least -15 when you actually do the cancel, not to mention the risk you are taking with them just blocking and punishing the superman. With DF2 you risk nothing because F4~DF2 cannot be interrupted and you get the exact same (if not better) effect. Iirc F4~DF2 does like 13%, but keep in mind that for every DF2 you land on block, the opponent is also taking 2% chip. Something that I’ve realised is that DF2 actually does a lot of chip for a single hitting move. Also don’t forget that for every time you need to stay safe with TW you sacrifice one defensive bar (ie no more breakaway), and TW’s mobility options also eat defensive bar (far teleport) so you’re at a much higher risk of having to eat high damage when you make mistake. Raijin doesn’t need to use defensive bar to stay safe, all while having the added benefit of discharge to push people away and interrupt gaps.

I’m not saying TW is bad, I’ve played TW since day 1 of the game, but Raijin is currently better than TW because it plugs most of the weaknesses that base Raiden has more effectively that TW does. Those base weaknesses imo are: safety, anti-air (debateable because S1), zoning/counter-zoning. Raijin gives the best solution to safety (and discharge makes opponents more unsafe than they normally are), DB2 is an amazing anti-air on top of his base options. The only real weakness is hard zoning, which is most prevalent when Raijin is down on life and needs to crawl his way back. Otherwise, Raijin still have a good projectile in DB4 but it’s still slow. On the other hand, TW plugs the safety problem with teleport cancels which can still be punished (except the far one but Jacqui can dash punch punish iirc). Fly cancels are universal so Raijin can access to those too. Storm cell is a reliable enough anti-air and is a very very good launcher for big damage. However, when it comes to zoning, lightning strike isn’t a very good move as it has such slow startup and is massively unsafe on BOTH the normal and AMP versions. Though, teleport pretty much negates zoning from the other end (or at least makes people think twice). Both variations plug up his weaknesses differently, but Raijin’s benefits are more guaranteed, while TW is more read-based and gimmicky. If you’re really struggling with zoning and need to mobility then TW is the way to go, otherwise, by default Raijin is sufficient in covering most MUs.

 

[MKF30]

I'd still consider it safe due to the distance and the threat of letting it fly. I'm sure some characters can punish if you get predictable, but so far I've yet to be punished doing it.

I'm not at home to check, but how much damage does it do on hit? Something as simple and hit-confirmable as f4~superman does around 16% with all that amazing corner carry. I'm still just not seeing enough reasons to give up a teleport and such a good conversion tool.

I hear ya, I agree. His raijin gets zoned out hard, if you can keep people away in raijin. A few characters can zone him out when hes in that variation that TW can easily avoid due to the teleport.

 

[RoboCop]

If you need to threaten it it means you will be at least -15 when you actually do the cancel, not to mention the risk you are taking with them just blocking and punishing the superman. With DF2 you risk nothing because F4~DF2 cannot be interrupted and you get the exact same (if not better) effect. Iirc F4~DF2 does like 13%, but keep in mind that for every DF2 you land on block, the opponent is also taking 2% chip. Something that I’ve realised is that DF2 actually does a lot of chip for a single hitting move. Also don’t forget that for every time you need to stay safe with TW you sacrifice one defensive bar (ie no more breakaway), and TW’s mobility options also eat defensive bar (far teleport) so you’re at a much higher risk of having to eat high damage when you make mistake. Raijin doesn’t need to use defensive bar to stay safe, all while having the added benefit of discharge to push people away and interrupt gaps.

I’m not saying TW is bad, I’ve played TW since day 1 of the game, but Raijin is currently better than TW because it plugs most of the weaknesses that base Raiden has more effectively that TW does. Those base weaknesses imo are: safety, anti-air (debateable because S1), zoning/counter-zoning. Raijin gives the best solution to safety (and discharge makes opponents more unsafe than they normally are), DB2 is an amazing anti-air on top of his base options. The only real weakness is hard zoning, which is most prevalent when Raijin is down on life and needs to crawl his way back. Otherwise, Raijin still have a good projectile in DB4 but it’s still slow. On the other hand, TW plugs the safety problem with teleport cancels which can still be punished (except the far one but Jacqui can dash punch punish iirc). Fly cancels are universal so Raijin can access to those too. Storm cell is a reliable enough anti-air and is a very very good launcher for big damage. However, when it comes to zoning, lightning strike isn’t a very good move as it has such slow startup and is massively unsafe on BOTH the normal and AMP versions. Though, teleport pretty much negates zoning from the other end (or at least makes people think twice). Both variations plug up his weaknesses differently, but Raijin’s benefits are more guaranteed, while TW is more read-based and gimmicky. If you’re really struggling with zoning and need to mobility then TW is the way to go, otherwise, by default Raijin is sufficient in covering most MUs.

I get what you're saying and I agree that those are all benefits to Raijin, I'm just saying those benefits don't seem to outweight those of TW, as far as I can tell. I'm probably missing something, but Discharge seems like a total bill since it does so little damage and doesn't lead to anything. It may make df2 safer than superman cancels, but superman cancels are still mostly safe, so the advantage is pretty limited. I was just confused because everyone seems to be all about Raijin, so I thought maybe I was missing something. But based on the information I see, I can't think of any reason I would ever use Raijin over TW.

 

[kabelfritz]

I get what you're saying and I agree that those are all benefits to Raijin, I'm just saying those benefits don't seem to outweight those of TW, as far as I can tell. I'm probably missing something, but Discharge seems like a total bill since it does so little damage and doesn't lead to anything. It may make df2 safer than superman cancels, but superman cancels are still mostly safe, so the advantage is pretty limited. I was just confused because everyone seems to be all about Raijin, so I thought maybe I was missing something. But based on the information I see, I can't think of any reason I would ever use Raijin over TW.

just try raijin. discharge is gdlk.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I get what you're saying and I agree that those are all benefits to Raijin, I'm just saying those benefits don't seem to outweight those of TW, as far as I can tell. I'm probably missing something, but Discharge seems like a total bill since it does so little damage and doesn't lead to anything. It may make df2 safer than superman cancels, but superman cancels are still mostly safe, so the advantage is pretty limited. I was just confused because everyone seems to be all about Raijin, so I thought maybe I was missing something. But based on the information I see, I can't think of any reason I would ever use Raijin over TW.

Discharge transforms anything that's -6 or more into a punishable string. Joker doing F142? Punish. SD Noob trying to stay safe with AMP slide? Nope, punish. Johnny cage trying to get plus frames off 124? Nah fam, reversal Kounter. Want to establish presence at half screen range? Discharge is always a threat. It's 13% sure but it also guarantees another Quick Charge set up which means after you expend the resource you're straight back to building it up again.

The difference between Raijin and TW is that Raijin grants absolute reward while TW grants relative reward. Canceling into DF2 is absolutely safe for certain strings (B12 and F4, which are pretty much all you are doing with Raiden) AND spends no resource. Fly cancels and far teleport cancels grant relative safety and spends resources. At least in terms of safety Raijin is without a doubt the better variation. Raijin also does more damage than TW (without counting KBs and conversions, but even then it's a matter of learning the optimal meter less combos). TW wins in mobility and counter zoning hands down but has trouble if you are close to the opponent because you have to purposefully lose resources to get back to optimal range while Raijin gives it to you for free.

That being said, if you like mobility over safety and the 6f reversal then go TW, otherwise Raijin is the better character overall.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

raijin gets zoned out hard

Please stop repeating this, it's not accurate save for one matchup right now.

 

[RoboCop]

Please stop repeating this, it's not accurate save for one matchup right now.

What matchup?

 

[Trustful_Whale]

What matchup?

The one I mentioned earlier; Sonya.
It can still be done, it's just the hardest one in my experience since her rings are way overtuned.

While it's true that TW can ignore many instances of zoning using teleport, it's simply not true the Raijin loses to zoning or gets zoned out easily as he can still make his way in like any other character without an obvious anti-zoning tool, only he can almost completely negate the chip damage entirely.

 

[MKF30]

Please stop repeating this, it's not accurate save for one matchup right now.

Why? It's 100% accurate. You're talking to a zoning player, he gets zoned out. I've done it with freaking Jade even lol. Jade gets typically destroyed by Raiden but telling you, if you get far he has no way of getting in fast. If you want I'll happily show you let's play some 1 on 1s. If not, please stop telling me what to say and what not to say.

Let me list you characters who can zone Rajin out. Sonya, Liu Kang, Skarlet, Cetrion, Shang and Jade. If you really think these characters get beat by Rajin from mid to far you haven't played good players using them.

 

[MKF30]

What matchup?

Sonya vs. Rajin, but he's wrong. There are more characters who can zone him out. I'm going to have to start saving these matches just to prove this guy wrong.

 

[kabelfritz]

i find those who have the superior zoning AND normals tricky, but thats not just a raijin issue. no holds barred is harder than ring master because after working in you need to block the mixup right, otherwise its back to start. digital soldier cassie is also extremely annoying, the liu kangs as well as outtake Johnny are to a degree, but raijin can compete with their mid-range normals. the skarletts and cetrions are only terrifying if you dont understand whats going on, but even then still hard work.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

It's not 100% accurate. I just explained why. Please stop trying to spread misinformation to new Raidens. He can still get in, it just takes a little more effort and patience.

 

[MKF30]

It is 100% accurate, explaining and showing are two different things. Til I see evidence in game, it's not 100% accurate. I'm not to say he doesn't get zoned is misinformation. I never said he can't get in anyone can get in lol but doesn't change the fact that some characters still get zoned out. I'm not talking about a mindless spammer, I'm talking about smart zoners that know their spacing, back up while their zoning, stay far being smart about it etc. Dude I played a Raijin main the other day in KL, that's all he used Raiden. I beat him with Wu Shi LK by zoning him out mostly, LK is my weakest character out of the 4 I use....I rarely even use him. Dude just admit that Raijin has it's weaknesses lol. I'm not saying it's BAD, just saying he gets zoned out. You even said this yourself earlier you're just disagreeing because it's me but I'll keep my stance.

@kabelfritz I actually forgot to mention Johnny Cage, since they buffed his zoning/fireballs....Cassie in her gun variation I would imagine can give him a rough time as well, I mean her pew pews can stuff out his teleport on startup sometimes.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

I have never claimed Raijin doesn't have weaknesses. Zoning is certainly a weakness compared to being able to teleport, but to say Raijin loses to zoning or easily gets zoned out is simply incorrect.

I don't care which variation a Raiden player wants to use, just that the information they're given about each is accurate.
This also has nothing to do with you in particular. If Marlow made the same claim I'd be making the same post to him.

 

[MKF30]

If the player is a GOOD zoner that knows what they're doing, knows their spacing, knows just how far they can be to be safe there is nothing Raijin can do and is an accurate estimation. What is he going to do then? If he can't get in saying from mid to far? He has no lightning strike so that's out. His lightning blast is way slower compared to Sonya, Jade, Cetrion, Skarlet, Cage, LK and anyone else with far quicker projectiles. His Superman can be seen from a mile away and easily punished. I just don't see how Raijin in that situation gets in and keep in mind there's the timer lol so if he's down health his opponent can just run out the clock too.

I think you and I are thinking of this from different angles, we both agree that Raijin has it's weakness to zoning. However, I think what you're saying or sounds like you're saying is anyone who zones doesn't automatically beat Raijin. And I agree with that if they're average or below facing a smart, solid Raijin player. I'm speaking however if you have two players around equal skill level and the zoner is just as smart as the Raijin player and good at keeping people out. I don't know if you'll get what I mean here so I'll try my best to explain it here. A lot of players tend to get credit for being good at rushdown I've noticed, but zoners and people who play a good turtling, zoning, game tend to get hate for a "scrubby tactic". It's a legit tactic that can win against the best rushdown characters. God knows I've had success vs Jax's, Cages, Raijin Raidens, Sindel's anyone who really has to get close to do good damage.

On the addressing aspect on certain things, discussing and trying to correct the same person on just about everything is not the same thing. Marlow if ever rarely disagrees with you...

I will look at my archive of KL matches, most of the time I never get Raiden period. But when I do on occasion get a Raiden it's usually a TW, but sometimes I may get a Raijin. I know this may sound crazy but I actually prefer Raijin players over TW. But that's my preference.

 

[SparkySanders]

Ok so:

Electric Current is now a low projectile, gets a damage boost from Quick Charge. EX version is two shots.
Electric Burst no longer has a safe version with Quick Charge but still gets a damage boost, EX version is a stun as stated before.
Quick Charge still powers up lightning based and hand based attacks, discharge is the same.
Also Quick Charge no longer dies when you hit a KB, the fuck is that?

Were these moves changed recently?
because if quick charge stays on after b2 kb, there could potentially be some juicy damage in raijin’s kb game now.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Were these moves changed recently?
because if quick charge stays on after b2 kb, there could potentially be some juicy damage in raijin’s kb game now.

Those are suggested changes to Raijin. I don’t think Raijin‘s damage potential would change much if QC stayed after a KB because the DB4 launcher doesn’t launch very high and if you use up gravity before hand I’m not sure if you can even follow up after the DB4 launch after KB

 

[Mandolore1123]

i find those who have the superior zoning AND normals tricky, but thats not just a raijin issue. no holds barred is harder than ring master because after working in you need to block the mixup right, otherwise its back to start. digital soldier cassie is also extremely annoying, the liu kangs as well as outtake Johnny are to a degree, but raijin can compete with their mid-range normals. the skarletts and cetrions are only terrifying if you dont understand whats going on, but even then still hard work.

This is what I really don’t like about this game. Characters that have everything vs characters that have something. You walk them down to the corner and once you get into mid range you still have to worry about their faster projectiles and their variety of long range moves.

 

[MKF30]

Anyone can be terrifying if they don't know the match up but that's a different story all together. I feel like Raiden beats people most of the time because nobody uses him and people are like WTF at first, not knowing what to do against him as opposed to him being very good.

Like in KL for example, I use raiden and jade nearly equally yet when I'm jade people seem to know what to do vs her but when I pick raiden they look clueless at times on what to do.

 

[SparkySanders]

Those are suggested changes to Raijin. I don’t think Raijin‘s damage potential would change much if QC stayed after a KB because the DB4 launcher doesn’t launch very high and if you use up gravity before hand I’m not sure if you can even follow up after the DB4 launch after KB

I had a feeling they were hypothetical suggestions for move changes, I guess the change would probably be minuscule. I think it would possibly work in the corner for a slight bump in damage with a well timed 243 or 12 into db2. But over all it would be an unnecessary change.

 

[kabelfritz]

This is what I really don’t like about this game. Characters that have everything vs characters that have something. You walk them down to the corner and once you get into mid range you still have to worry about their faster projectiles and their variety of long range moves.

the good old NRS top tier formula. they never seem to learn.

 

[MKF30]

Wondering what would be better tbh if they just buff everyone weaker to the top tiers or nerf the op characters down to earth.

 

[kabelfritz]

Wondering what would be better tbh if they just buff everyone weaker to the top tiers or nerf the op characters down to earth.

imo it would be more fun if every char had strenghts and weaknesses, would make the game way more tactical and intelligent. if everyone is op its just about who gets his shit going first and a lot of randomness.

 

[Marlow]

imo it would be more fun if every char had strenghts and weaknesses, would make the game way more tactical and intelligent. if everyone is op its just about who gets his shit going first and a lot of randomness.

I think that's normally the goal with any fighting game, it's just that character design can be difficult. Until the game is actually out there in the real world it can be hard to know how weak a weakness will actually be, or how strong a strength will be. It's why I normally try and cut game developers some slack.

 

[kabelfritz]

I think that's normally the goal with any fighting game, it's just that character design can be difficult. Until the game is actually out there in the real world it can be hard to know how weak a weakness will actually be, or how strong a strength will be. It's why I normally try and cut game developers some slack.

tbh it was obvious in vanilla mk 11 that luohan quan and the sonyas were not ok.