Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

[Black Chapters]

So you’ve made TW the only variation worth playing again. I don’t get why people like being so obsessed with storm cell’s safety like it’s the holy grail of solving Raiden’s problems while at the same time so many people complain that Outtake‘s poke~rising star game is a problem. Storm cell does NOT need to be safe. It already jails from pokes and you’re even buffing Raiden’s teleport to allow him to teleport in the air when he already has the most options out of teleport in the entire cast of MK11 and uses the least resources.

My main reasoning outside rebalancing is that I find Raiden boring for what he is. So I want him to have more shit, when I look at Sindel or Joker I cry for Raiden.

So the added teleports are why thats there.

I don’t really understand your changes to Raijin. Giving him staff based normals just makes him get more range to whiff punish (which he already does well). He’s still safe on everything but you also remove his launcher and give DF2 an AMP with increased range and does what exactly? DF2 is slow so without frame adjustments I don’t see the effectiveness of having an amplified attack that hits behind raiden, especially since you can’t jump over the attack if you special cancel it from pokes and strings.

He'd still have his launch, I don't like how Raiden is the only character who damn near never uses his weapon so I want those added for variety.

I don’t get why you’re choosing to make 121KB do DOT when it’s perfectly fine by itself. (I honestly think DOT is a nerf to the move.)

Just think it makes more sense based on the actual attack

Adjustments to normals obviously, but the main deal is make his other moves worth a damn and do Raiden some proper justice.

 

[MKF30]

I want no variations in MK 12, tired of them already. Just give everyone a base set and of course Raiden his teleport a better projectile, faster start up and recovery and I'd be fine personally if they got rid of his Electric grab launch(which they did and replaced with SC), get rid of SC and just give him a legit launch string that's safe. I'd be fine with that, maybe give him some newer moves like a flight move where he can move around but has a meter so he can't stay in the air forever. I honestly believe I could come up with better ideas and probably most of us in here with being creative with Raiden than they're doing now with him.

Man two weeks into launch I messed around with super bolt with a custom variation and I couldn’t even understand why they even made such a move.. never mind with a super gimmicky kb, and a brutal.

major wasted potential across the board with any custom moves for raiden

Yeah, it just feels like NRS said "yeah let's put effort into every character...except Raiden, we don't really give a shit about him in this game" lol just feels like they took that kind of attitude towards this character.

 

[MKF30]

Ok lol

 

[Marinjuana]

I think making B12 -6 or -7 would be the simplest fix. I know it's not the most elegant, but it gives TW just a bit more safety and would reward hit confirming. It would benefit both TW and TL since they both lack the safety that Raijin has. Raijin already has some safety from QC and Burst, so I don't think it would be too much of a Buff to him. Otherwise I think you have the right idea, if there was some way to make teleport cancels or fly cancels safer that could do it.

For T&L I'd like to see Jo Push be a 1 slot move, add in Super Bolt, and rework some of the properties of Lightening Rod (duration at the very least). That way he has a launcher, an ender, and a unique tool to possible create some pressure.

Can't you be safe most of the time with Thunder Wave by doing B12~Superman and block confirming into the Superman Cancel? How many characters can actually punish that?

 

[Braindead]

Can't you be safe most of the time with Thunder Wave by doing B12~Superman and block confirming into the Superman Cancel? How many characters can actually punish that?

He's like -15 or -16 on that cancel, some nice pushback but still bad frames.

 

[Marinjuana]

He's like -15 or -16 on that cancel, some nice pushback but still bad frames.

It might be asking a lot to be able to execute consistently but you can get B12~Superman Cancel as low as -9 and there's only so many characters with fast charge/slide type moves or the pokes/normals to be able to punish it even when the frames are worse. I just wonder if people are underselling the cancel's usefulness, also it's very cool

 

[Mandolore1123]

It might be asking a lot to be able to execute consistently but you can get B12~Superman Cancel as low as -9 and there's only so many characters with fast charge/slide type moves or the pokes/normals to be able to punish it even when the frames are worse. I just wonder if people are underselling the cancel's usefulness, also it's very cool

You can but it has to be instant. Certain characters‘ S1 with super long ranges (like Cetrion) can just straight up punish both B12 and B12~fly cancel. The cancel is definitely useful because it creates space for Raiden to whiff punish attempts to punish B12 using standing jabs and such. It’s just that the frame data is pretty bad for a cancel, and the distance that the superman cancel leaves you varies between each string.

 

[Nevan_PTF]

It's really tough to get back from a life deficit with Raiden, sometimes I feel hopeless lol Played some games yesterday, caught two guys who changed to Scorpion after losing the 1st match, with Wifi and more than 140ms, felt like crap losing like that.

Raidens punishment is weak, in Raijin, if you don't have QC up and I feel people keep doing unsafe stuff because it doesn't "hurt" when he touches you. Fooken Jacqui can just 3,3 KB with a 9f normal...smh

 

[Mandolore1123]

It's really tough to get back from a life deficit with Raiden, sometimes I feel hopeless lol Played some games yesterday, caught two guys who changed to Scorpion after losing the 1st match, with Wifi and more than 140ms, felt like crap losing like that.

Raidens punishment is weak, in Raijin, if you don't have QC up and I feel people keep doing unsafe stuff because it doesn't "hurt" when he touches you. Fooken Jacqui can just 3,3 KB with a 9f normal...smh

It's easy to snowball Raiden. He needs space (literally and figuratively) to work well. If someone else is dictating the pace he can easily get smothered. Raijin especially because QC is an integral part of the game plan. Sometimes we can't be afraid to make ballsy reads or even forego QC for better OKI. But we are always one hit away from QC setup. Don't forget in the corner we can jail opponents with F3, 12, 2, D3, etc. TW does a bit better because his TP creates space but at the cost of defence bar which you won't have easily (either eat big damage for the chance of far teleport or forego far teleport to eat OKI and pressure).
We need to try to out-neutral the opponent, get the life lead and sit back to bait mistakes. Easy to say, hard to actually do. When faced with projectiles, counter zoning with BF1 AMP helps (get knock down and put on QC then move in). And when faced with pressure we need to either get it tgt and flawless block or poke out and jail into 12~QC which is +3. It's hard playing a lower tier character, but it's more rewarding when you do win. Keep at it!

 

[Nevan_PTF]

You pretty much nailed it. If a character sets the pace of the match it's hard to get it back. I find myself going for risky stuff to try and surprise my opponent and regain control of the match.

It's really hard, because I find it really hard to condition your opponent to just respect you. They push buttons on + frames, keep jumping when you have been AA'ing them. I played vs a Noob that kept F221 and I was punishing everytime with a throw, he didn't care. You try to enforce pressure, bearing in mind they have been getting countered, and bam there they go silly stuff.

Wish I could just turn off my brain like that and go apeshit lmao But I can't my nature doesn't let me rofl I'm too honest of a player x')

Oh it does feel great winning with Raiden! I played Vega the entire lifespan of SFIV, had no reversal which was really key for the meta, and every win was savored. It's just hella frustrating because most matches I have to step back, let the opponent hang themselves, playing mid to long range, when I play a character that thrives in pressure and staggers.

Thanks for the words man!

 

[kabelfritz]

i experienced the exact same you two wrote… if (in my case) raijin can control the space, hes pretty dominant. if the other character is better at that or (even worse and not uncommon) has tools to simply bypass the spacing game, you gotta work really hard. things that help in tough matchups are raijins good skills at keeping a life lead as well as slowing down the game to rebuild gauges.

 

[Mandolore1123]

You pretty much nailed it. If a character sets the pace of the match it's hard to get it back. I find myself going for risky stuff to try and surprise my opponent and regain control of the match.

It's really hard, because I find it really hard to condition your opponent to just respect you. They push buttons on + frames, keep jumping when you have been AA'ing them. I played vs a Noob that kept F221 and I was punishing everytime with a throw, he didn't care. You try to enforce pressure, bearing in mind they have been getting countered, and bam there they go silly stuff.

Wish I could just turn off my brain like that and go apeshit lmao But I can't my nature doesn't let me rofl I'm too honest of a player x')

Oh it does feel great winning with Raiden! I played Vega the entire lifespan of SFIV, had no reversal which was really key for the meta, and every win was savored. It's just hella frustrating because most matches I have to step back, let the opponent hang themselves, playing mid to long range, when I play a character that thrives in pressure and staggers.

Thanks for the words man!

just need to enforce plus frames more. Always do stuff that’s guaranteed to gain their respect. Something I’ve learnt is that DF2 on hit gives enough advantage for another dash up F4~DF2. If the opponent doesn’t respect I’ll loop it over and over until they die.
Noob is a hard MU if they play it right. Seeing Double gives us a lot of trouble because of slide controlling a lot of the neutral at a range where Raiden shines. Zoning is hard because Noob has a 16% teleport we have to respect. Noob also has better pokes than we do. But for F221, try to feel out its range and whiff punish on the 2nd hit (the clone hit). If he’s close to you, D4 works wonders stuffing F2, but Noob’s D4 is better in every way so we can’t spam D4 like he can. Beware the 9f mid as always.

 

[Mandolore1123]

i experienced the exact same you two wrote… if (in my case) raijin can control the space, hes pretty dominant. if the other character is better at that or (even worse and not uncommon) has tools to simply bypass the spacing game, you gotta work really hard. things that help in tough matchups are raijins good skills at keeping a life lead as well as slowing down the game to rebuild gauges.

I think somehow Raijin benefits from players who take things slow (might just be me and my slow reactions though). We can really really bully opponents from F4 range and just whiff punish everything they do after DF2. But if the other player is nutty and likes to pressure a lot, Raijin can get suffocated without discharge to push people off.

 

[Nevan_PTF]

just need to enforce plus frames more. Always do stuff that’s guaranteed to gain their respect. Something I’ve learnt is that DF2 on hit gives enough advantage for another dash up F4~DF2. If the opponent doesn’t respect I’ll loop it over and over until they die.
Noob is a hard MU if they play it right. Seeing Double gives us a lot of trouble because of slide controlling a lot of the neutral at a range where Raiden shines. Zoning is hard because Noob has a 16% teleport we have to respect. Noob also has better pokes than we do. But for F221, try to feel out its range and whiff punish on the 2nd hit (the clone hit). If he’s close to you, D4 works wonders stuffing F2, but Noob’s D4 is better in every way so we can’t spam D4 like he can. Beware the 9f mid as always.

Oh I do that a lot! If they keep getting hit by F4 xx DF2, Imma loop it as well.

I've been trying to change my game, taking advantage of F3 hitting, jailing with 1,2 after... It's hard haha Now that I look back at it, reaching Demi was really rough.

 

[kabelfritz]

Oh I do that a lot! If they keep getting hit by F4 xx DF2, Imma loop it as well.

I've been trying to change my game, taking advantage of F3 hitting, jailing with 1,2 after... It's hard haha Now that I look back at it, reaching Demi was really rough.

why dont you jail with 243?

 

[Nevan_PTF]

I find S2 stubby so I never went for that.

It jails after D3, right?

 

[MKF30]

I'll post the matches soon but played this guy who used Raiden first TW, then switched to Raijin. I felt I honestly had an easier time vs Raijin. I was Wu Shi Liu Kang. First match I had to think and anticipate him moving all over. Second match I literally just zoned him out half the time. To me that teleport makes all the difference between these two variations bigtime.

 

[kabelfritz]

I find S2 stubby so I never went for that.

It jails after D3, right?

it should

 

[Mandolore1123]

Oh I do that a lot! If they keep getting hit by F4 xx DF2, Imma loop it as well.

I've been trying to change my game, taking advantage of F3 hitting, jailing with 1,2 after... It's hard haha Now that I look back at it, reaching Demi was really rough.

If you really need to keep someone close after a combo, you can do starter~DB4 AMP, F2, B12, 1+3 or F32 to put yourself at one dash away from point blank, but this doesn't do a lot of damage and the timing for F32 is very tight

I find S2 stubby so I never went for that.

It jails after D3, right?

S2 jails just frame from D3. But from F3 we have enough advantage to jail reliably

 

[Zviko]

F2 as well.

 

[Nevan_PTF]

Alright! I will try that fellas! Ty!

 

[Mandolore1123]

Alright! I will try that fellas! Ty!

Remember to refer to Trustful Whale's post on jailing

 

[Nevan_PTF]

I'm going to put that on my phone and having it open while playing.

 

[Black Chapters]

To be honest I like the idea for more staff normals, just not for Raijin.

I picked Raijin for it cause it already had current

of the 3 I made, I'd probably like Truth and Light the most, so lets put it there, examples of additions

Lightning Storm as is is total balls, the 3 attack allows you to avoid an attack at the height of the flip but beyond that both 1 and 2 attacks recover slow and theres pretty much no combos with it. He should've just got normal air moves like everyone else. Even when hes floating, projectiles can hit him, theres 0 benefit to how it works now.

Rolling Thunder is fine, but theres no combination of moves that makes it worth it, the best I found was Storm Cell with Quick charge, but its overall just fucking boring.

Jo Push and Superbolt should be deleted in general, just dull and useless moves. Superbolt should actually just be redone as a normal in a string cause I do like the Superman Punch part of it, maybe make it his new b2 overhead, you can still charge it and it avoids lows and will activate a KB on a counter hit. Actually the Jo Push launcher should also be a normal, or even his uppercut.

The idea for new Lightning Rod is similar to Captain Cold's dome only it does chip damage only and doesn't freeze, giving Rolling Thunder better use as well. The Lightning Rod conductor move is beyond shit, if it went full screen or the rod lasted longer than maybe but adding to that both of Raiden's Lightning moves are so slow anyway.

I'm willing to back off allowing a MB on Storm Cell, the teleport additions are basically what Shinnok had in X though, that combined with Storm Cell could lead to some cool shit.

With Raijin, I still feel that Quick Charge should act as Flame Fist does and power Raiden's punches and lightning attacks. I always viewed Electric Current as an ugly move, Raiden can easily shoot the lightning from his hands. Burst's only real use is to have a safe ender, thats weak. Honestly you could make its MB move a stun, slightly increase the radius of the lightning and shock the opponent and stun them for follow up. Then you can use Electric Current as a regular low projectile similar to Lightning Bolt only the MB shoots 2 low bolts. And discharge works the same way.

All of this is not just about giving him more options, its about making this more appealing to watch, a character like Raiden should not look this dull.



Updating KBs

Thunder Fly KB is reverted back to normal, works on MB in the air.
Throw KB now activated if opponent failed throw escape during previous throw.
New KB for b2 is now on a punish and causes damage overtime.
Summon Lightning can KB if Quick Charge is activated in Raijin.
MB Air Stomp can KB in Truth and Light if the opponent is ducking, causes a pop up.
MB Lightning Strike can KB if the Rod is also out in Truth and Light.
Thunder Wave now has a Storm Cell KB if you counter with a MB'd Storm Cell, meaning you start the combo with MB Storm Cell.

 

[MKF30]

I picked Raijin for it cause it already had current

of the 3 I made, I'd probably like Truth and Light the most, so lets put it there, examples of additions

Lightning Storm as is is total balls, the 3 attack allows you to avoid an attack at the height of the flip but beyond that both 1 and 2 attacks recover slow and theres pretty much no combos with it. He should've just got normal air moves like everyone else. Even when hes floating, projectiles can hit him, theres 0 benefit to how it works now.

Rolling Thunder is fine, but theres no combination of moves that makes it worth it, the best I found was Storm Cell with Quick charge, but its overall just fucking boring.

Jo Push and Superbolt should be deleted in general, just dull and useless moves. Superbolt should actually just be redone as a normal in a string cause I do like the Superman Punch part of it, maybe make it his new b2 overhead, you can still charge it and it avoids lows and will activate a KB on a counter hit. Actually the Jo Push launcher should also be a normal, or even his uppercut.

The idea for new Lightning Rod is similar to Captain Cold's dome only it does chip damage only and doesn't freeze, giving Rolling Thunder better use as well. The Lightning Rod conductor move is beyond shit, if it went full screen or the rod lasted longer than maybe but adding to that both of Raiden's Lightning moves are so slow anyway.

I'm willing to back off allowing a MB on Storm Cell, the teleport additions are basically what Shinnok had in X though, that combined with Storm Cell could lead to some cool shit.

With Raijin, I still feel that Quick Charge should act as Flame Fist does and power Raiden's punches and lightning attacks. I always viewed Electric Current as an ugly move, Raiden can easily shoot the lightning from his hands. Burst's only real use is to have a safe ender, thats weak. Honestly you could make its MB move a stun, slightly increase the radius of the lightning and shock the opponent and stun them for follow up. Then you can use Electric Current as a regular low projectile similar to Lightning Bolt only the MB shoots 2 low bolts. And discharge works the same way.

All of this is not just about giving him more options, its about making this more appealing to watch, a character like Raiden should not look this dull.



Updating KBs

Thunder Fly KB is reverted back to normal, works on MB in the air.
Throw KB now activated if opponent failed throw escape during previous throw.
New KB for b2 is now on a punish and causes damage overtime.
Summon Lightning can KB if Quick Charge is activated in Raijin.
MB Air Stomp can KB in Truth and Light if the opponent is ducking, causes a pop up.
MB Lightning Strike can KB if the Rod is also out in Truth and Light.
Thunder Wave now has a Storm Cell KB if you counter with a MB'd Storm Cell, meaning you start the combo with MB Storm Cell.

They need to make his Superman KB work on 3rd hit amp from anywhere, get rid of that full screen bs AND it should juggle. Tons of others in this game have a damn juggle or free hit chance after their KB's I'd be all for him having 3 I mean we can only do them once anyway. I would be down for a SC KB too though, that could work too.