Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

[ExpectFlames]

I agree that tiers matter little in this game, it’s just about the MU and tools that the characters have.

I wish you would have had this revelation yesterday.

 

[MKF30]

I think tier lists do matter but in some FG's, like MK 11 it's not as dramatic as some previous games or other FG's. I still welcome Raiden buffs personally but either way I'll keep using Raiden.

 

[Shylock]

Have you guys watched Sonix input regarding Raiden?

It's from Friday.

EDIT: added time stamp

Since this tier list came out, I've been called part of the Raiden bandwagon when I've been playing him since Day 1 lol

 

[Mandolore1123]

I wish you would have had this revelation yesterday.

I wish you’d stop being wrong about Raiden’s tools

 

[MKF30]

Raiden's Oki isn't all that compared to some other characters, with delayed wake up the defensive player can use that. I find this helps alot vs Raijin players

 

[rainuS]

Another one

We should forget about any buffs and praise for no nerfs...

 

[Mandolore1123]

Another one

We should forget about any buffs and praise for no nerfs...

Who else other than SF thinks Raijin is top 5? He’s just repeating what SF says to get views and capitalise on the discussion surrounding SF’s tierlist.

 

[rainuS]

yes but he has large audience and ppl gonna believe he is top 5

 

[Darth Mao]

If you set Block Mode to "Stance Hold" and Movement Mode to "Stand", db4 ex [Raijin] don't launches at range 0

 

[Marlow]

This does not justify Scorp's teleport not being broken or OP. Which is was. The move literally didn't act as a high, low, mid but all and was a braindead move before they fixed it to strictly a high. Are you saying you were ok with the Scorp's vanilla teleport? Because if you say yes and are against Raiden's SC amp being safe, this literally makes no sense to me. Especially when Scorp had so much power with that one move killing neutral, you had to react instantly or eat major damage, couldn't jump, couldn't punish...there''s a difference between a move that's annoying and a move that's flat out broken/OP.

Is it possible to try and move this discussion over to the General Discussion thread? Seems like it fits better there.

@MKF30 I appreciate your passion and contributions, but on your above points I have to disagree.

Scorp's vanilla teleport was annoying, but both amped and non-amped were unsafe and could be full combo punished. With practice you could delay your punish just enough to still punish the first teleport, but also punish if Scorpion amped. It's not an easy punish but it seemed like something that could be labbed and dealt with.

Raiden's Storm cell is 13f, has a huge hitbox, tons of active frames, and on amp puts the opponent in a capture state that leads to full combo and corner carry. I can't think of any move in the game with that kind of property which is safe. There'd be pretty much no risk for Raiden whatsoever. He could basically just D1xxxStorm Cell whenever, and worst case scenario he's down a bar of meter and neutral is reset, best case scenario he hits and now gets to full combo the opponent into the corner. The opponent would be forced to respect literally every cancellable poke, every cancellable string, so long as Raiden has meter. I can't think of another move in MK11 that is comparable.

In general I think you're overstating how "broken" these other moves are that you're referencing, and understating how broken Storm Cell being safe on AMP would be.

 

[Marlow]

For me, just make B12 -7. It puts Raiden much more in line with the rest of the cast, it makes B14 a more viable option, it really helps out both TW and T&L. It might not be the most elegant fix, but I think it'd be the most effective and simple.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Is it possible to try and move this discussion over to the General Discussion thread? Seems like it fits better there.

@MKF30 I appreciate your passion and contributions, but on your above points I have to disagree.

Scorp's vanilla teleport was annoying, but both amped and non-amped were unsafe and could be full combo punished. With practice you could delay your punish just enough to still punish the first teleport, but also punish if Scorpion amped. It's not an easy punish but it seemed like something that could be labbed and dealt with.

Raiden's Storm cell is 13f, has a huge hitbox, tons of active frames, and on amp puts the opponent in a capture state that leads to full combo and corner carry. I can't think of any move in the game with that kind of property which is safe. There'd be pretty much no risk for Raiden whatsoever. He could basically just D1xxxStorm Cell whenever, and worst case scenario he's down a bar of meter and neutral is reset, best case scenario he hits and now gets to full combo the opponent into the corner. The opponent would be forced to respect literally every cancellable poke, every cancellable string, so long as Raiden has meter. I can't think of another move in MK11 that is comparable.

In general I think you're overstating how "broken" these other moves are that you're referencing, and understating how broken Storm Cell being safe on AMP would be.

Cheers for the reminder. Though idk how to do move conversations. Can someone teach me?

 

[Marlow]

I don't know how to move past conversations, I think a mod would need to get involved to do that, and I don't think we need to get that complicated. But going forward if we want to continue the conversion on Raiden/Buffs/SC and what not, I think it makes more sense to try and continue that conversation on the General Discussion thread, rather than the video thread.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I don't know how to move past conversations, I think a mod would need to get involved to do that, and I don't think we need to get that complicated. But going forward if we want to continue the conversion on Raiden/Buffs/SC and what not, I think it makes more sense to try and continue that conversation on the General Discussion thread, rather than the video thread.

Roger that. I appreciate the reminder. Good to reduce clutter.

 

[Marlow]

Just to follow up on another conversation thread as well, in general I don't think it's wise to use two Amps in one combo. Most of the time you're only bagging an extra 4%-7% damage, but then you're out of meter, meaning your potential damage for the next 10-15 seconds is extremely limited. Unless it's a situation where that extra damage closes out a round, I think it's much more efficient to simply spend one bar, and hold that other bar in reserve.

 

[SparkySanders]

I’m also a firm believer in the one bar optimals, couldn’t have said it better @Marlow

I usually only use two bars at the end of the second round to get the electric fly brutal.

 

[Marlow]

I think in TW if you have two bars and are in the corner you can spend two to give yourself an easy way to end in B2 to set up a B2 KB/B31 mix-up potential on wakeup. That's one spot where I'd consider spending both bars, although I'm sure with better timing and execution it's possible to just do a 1 bar B2 set up.

 

[MKF30]

If you want to remove your own convos, you can delete them. But otherwise so long as we talk about Raiden, there's nothing wrong with anything since we're on topic.

Is it possible to try and move this discussion over to the General Discussion thread? Seems like it fits better there.

@MKF30 I appreciate your passion and contributions, but on your above points I have to disagree.

Scorp's vanilla teleport was annoying, but both amped and non-amped were unsafe and could be full combo punished. With practice you could delay your punish just enough to still punish the first teleport, but also punish if Scorpion amped. It's not an easy punish but it seemed like something that could be labbed and dealt with.

Raiden's Storm cell is 13f, has a huge hitbox, tons of active frames, and on amp puts the opponent in a capture state that leads to full combo and corner carry. I can't think of any move in the game with that kind of property which is safe. There'd be pretty much no risk for Raiden whatsoever. He could basically just D1xxxStorm Cell whenever, and worst case scenario he's down a bar of meter and neutral is reset, best case scenario he hits and now gets to full combo the opponent into the corner. The opponent would be forced to respect literally every cancellable poke, every cancellable string, so long as Raiden has meter. I can't think of another move in MK11 that is comparable.

In general I think you're overstating how "broken" these other moves are that you're referencing, and understating how broken Storm Cell being safe on AMP would be.

It's fine I too respectfullly disagree with you just on the SC amp being safe gig. That is true about Scorp's but the effort on doing that was extremely annoying on top of that move killing neutral, you can't jump and not being consistent. I have beaten Scorps prepatch with Raiden even but it was an extreme pain, he's still annoyingly good just not AS stupid good as he was.

Yeah that's true about corner carry, however most of the time not going to get past 30-33% if you're lucky at most not counting a full jump in combo or KB punish. There would be risk though because you can only use 2 bars and not constantly the entire match, they have other moves in the game even more annoying and way more powerful like Geras, Jacqui, Scorp's reborn did you know he can make his teleport safe now with canceling it properly? So in a way his nerf only effected the scrubs and average players, but solid players can still abuse that move so he either hits you or he's safe by hitting down. To me those are much worse than AMP safe Raiden SC. I'd rather deal with that to be honest. D1 ~SC can be blocked pretty easily, people do it to me all the time I see it coming. Yeah but even if people did that there's pushback, not frame advantage for Raiden or the opponent so puts both back at neutral. Yes, exactly by the opponent forced to respect very poke would make Raiden actually viable in that variation.

I don't think so honestly, I mean sure some can be 'dealt' with but that doesn't negate the fact that they're extremely annoying, not fun and inconsistent at times(like much of this game honestly) it should just be fixed or simply buff other characters. To me this is the logical thing to do, even most have said with this game either nerf the OP characters or buff everyone else to be on their level til they do that there won't truly be balance and thus people like Raiden will remain lower. However, that's not to say I'm not open to other buffs. If say NRS never touches his SC to be better, than ok make his Superman faster and recover like his old MK2 where you can still punish it but he just lands farther, or make his teleport faster on wake up so that I can actually teleport after a knockdown from Scorpion and NOT get hooked by his spear. This just so you know has never been an issue in any past MK game with Raiden's teleport, in this game it's slow af on reaction after a knockdown. I would be open to either of those two changes.

I get a few people here disagree with me on the SC thing, and that's fine but if he can't have that he should have buffs to his teleport and/or Superman. As someone who's been playing MK since MK 1 this is just common sense to have them work properly. Plus he's a God he should not be freaking low tier imho.

 

[SparkySanders]

I think in TW if you have two bars and are in the corner you can spend two to give yourself an easy way to end in B2 to set up a B2 KB/B31 mix-up potential on wakeup. That's one spot where I'd consider spending both bars, although I'm sure with better timing and execution it's possible to just do a 1 bar B2 set up.

I definitely still keep it a one bar, if you land a j3/4 you can go into 243 sc~amp ji2 b2 and it nets 34%

Then if you land another b2 you still have a bar for the 50% kb combo, if your opponent has no defensive meter it’s basically a free round for you.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

1 bar b2 setup is also possible with Raijin.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

In terms of being a good or OP move? Pretty sure there are. I've already listed some.

In terms of what it literally does. There are other moves in the game that do parts of what SC does, but nothing has all of its features and can also be made safe.
This is significant and what I've been trying to explain since the beginning about the move.

Raiden's Storm cell is 13f, has a huge hitbox, tons of active frames, and on amp puts the opponent in a capture state that leads to full combo and corner carry. I can't think of any move in the game with that kind of property which is safe. There'd be pretty much no risk for Raiden whatsoever. He could basically just D1xxxStorm Cell whenever, and worst case scenario he's down a bar of meter and neutral is reset, best case scenario he hits and now gets to full combo the opponent into the corner. The opponent would be forced to respect literally every cancellable poke, every cancellable string, so long as Raiden has meter. I can't think of another move in MK11 that is comparable.

 

[MKF30]

In terms of what it literally does. There are other moves in the game that do parts of what SC does, but nothing has all of its features and can also be made safe.
This is significant and what I've been trying to explain since the beginning about the move.

Of course I'm talking in terms of how effective a move is it doesn't have to be a launcher to be a OP move you know.

 

[SparkySanders]

What’s the optimal for raijin’s b2 setup? @Trustful_Whale

 

[MKF30]

Anyway, anyone ever use Raiden vs. Cassie, Jade or Sonya? I feel he honestly destroys them at least from my experience. Though I will admit jaded gives him a rougher time than ED for sure.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Yeah that's true about corner carry, however most of the time not going to get past 30-33% if you're lucky at most not counting a full jump in combo or KB punish.

Raiden’s optimal BNB punishes for 1 bar all go past 30%. If you don’t do optimal you still do 29%. He does good damage on average.

Yes, exactly by the opponent forced to respect very poke would make Raiden actually viable in that variation.

The opponent is still forced to respect pokes because storm cell jails from pokes. They have to guess whether or not you do storm cell or not. It’s already a powerful tool. That’s why everyone in here except you disagrees that storm cell should be made safe