Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

[Mandolore1123]

I definitely still keep it a one bar, if you land a j3/4 you can go into 243 sc~amp ji2 b2 and it nets 34%

Then if you land another b2 you still have a bar for the 50% kb combo, if your opponent has no defensive meter it’s basically a free round for you.

In TW the one bar B2 setup is just doing JI3, B2 after storm cell in the corner

 

[SparkySanders]

I never thought b2 would connect consistently after doing a j3, guess I’ve never practiced it. I’ve habitually used the ji2 to b2 as the combo ender.

gonna try that out later for sure @Mandolore1123

 

[Trustful_Whale]

Of course I'm talking in terms of how effective a move is it doesn't have to be a launcher to be a OP move you know.

So am I. The reason Storm Cell is fair is because it can't be made safe on block. Being a launcher is only part of why. You seem to be focusing on one aspect at a time here when the sum of its parts is what makes the move what it is.
If it was made safe it would stand above every other similar moves like it in the game; there's simply no reason for it and the character can be improved in a much more responsible and smarter way elsewhere in his kit.

What’s the optimal for raijin’s b2 setup? @Trustful_Whale

I dunno about optimal as I didn't lab it much but you can simply opt to b2 after db4 amp in the corner, which I think is well worth the mix.
Also, you could full combo into Discharge ender instead and reset into b2 as a less guaranteed option, such is with resets.

I never thought b2 would connect consistently after doing a j3, guess I’ve never practiced it. I’ve habitually used the ji2 to b2 as the combo ender.

With the way recovery works after jump kicks it can be kind of jank so I wouldn't be surprised it you don't find it consistent online. j2 is the safer option but j3 is always a temptation.

 

[MKF30]

Raiden’s optimal BNB punishes for 1 bar all go past 30%. If you don’t do optimal you still do 29%. He does good damage on average.

The opponent is still forced to respect pokes because storm cell jails from pokes. They have to guess whether or not you do storm cell or not. It’s already a powerful tool. That’s why everyone in here except you disagrees that storm cell should be made safe

That's what I'm saying on average I usually see 28-31% done with combos like that.

Dude this whole game is a guessing game and I'm not sure I get what you're saying about SC jailing what? It's a knockdown on regular hit confirm and amp launched. Yeah but not quite everyone there's 2 other guys haven't seen them post of late who also felt the same way I do about SC. I just forget their names atm. But like I said, even if they didn't do that there's no reason not to buff his teleport speed like past games on wake up, or make his Superman faster or make LS actually safe and faster recovery. Again, not all of them but something needs to happen for Raiden to be more viable. And I'm not just talking about Rajin which we have yet to see go far in a tournament. The B2 set up is good if they don't block high twice in a row, I just use it to condition them.

Another change I'd like to see is we can all agree he has no good mix ups, they're slow, unsafe, predictable and easy to block. F32 being the one exception. Hopefully they tweak some of his strings in the future.

So am I. The reason Storm Cell is fair is because it can't be made safe on block. Being a launcher is only part of why. You seem to be focusing on one aspect at a time here when the sum of its parts is what makes the move what it is.
If it was made safe it would stand above every other similar moves like it in the game; there's simply no reason for it and the character can improved in a much more responsible and smarter way elsewhere in his kit.

What bugs me is how UNSAFE it is on block though that's not fair to Raiden where other characters get moves that they can just throw out and be safe. And the fact that the last hit is high yeah? People can just duck it and D2 you KB into meaty damage. I just don't like the move all around which is why I'd be for it being safe on AMP. I feel like you guys are acting as if this is the only move he has and will use, he can't use it with meter the entire round/match. 99% of Raidens in TW utilize his teleport just as much if not more than SC. Hell I've played a few even who didn't even use SC that much or teleport but just flat out rushing down with B2 which doesn't work most of the time but I'm just saying that from my experience I've seen lots of different styles with TW Raiden that don't all rely on SC. Sure it's crucial for him, but not necessary. I mean look at Raijin. He don't have that but has other tools to make up for no SC.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I never thought b2 would connect consistently after doing a j3, guess I’ve never practiced it. I’ve habitually used the ji2 to b2 as the combo ender.

gonna try that out later for sure @Mandolore1123

If you want actual footage you can dig around the match footage thread for matches that Echo played (or just on YT). He uses the J3, B2 combo a lot in the corner iirc

 

[SparkySanders]

Definitely gonna lab that out with raijin, I’m curious to see how much damage you can squeeze out in that situation. Yeah the discharge +5 restand option isn’t a terrible idea, if it gets blocked your eating a full combo punish though. @Trustful_Whale

 

[Trustful_Whale]

Dude this whole game is a guessing game and I'm not sure I get what you're saying about SC jailing what?

When you do something like d1~special on block the vast majority of characters tend to have a gap between the poke and special that is interruptable or flawless blockable. Some moves don't have such a gap, like Johnny's Rising Star, and Raiden's Storm Cell, forcing the opponent to block everything or get hit.

This means with the change you're suggesting Raiden can use Storm Cell from any button with impunity. Nobody else in the game would have something this powerful.

What bugs me is how UNSAFE it is on block though that's not fair to Raiden

But I just explained why this move is unsafe...

I feel like you guys are acting as if this is the only move he has and will use

It would be if this move could be made safe. That is the point I've been making months ago.

 

[SparkySanders]

If you want actual footage you can dig around the match footage thread for matches that Echo played (or just on YT). He uses the J3, B2 combo a lot in the corner iirc

I’ve watched the majority of echos vids and the ones you post in the match footage thread, love that guys raiden. Guess I wasn’t paying close enough attention to that.

His tp’s on oki is a little weird imo but he’s still a great player.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I’ve watched the majority of echos vids and the ones you post in the match footage thread, love that guys raiden. Guess I wasn’t paying close enough attention to that.

His tp’s on oki is a little weird imo but he’s still a great player.

His tp on oki is a anti-wake-up set up that absolutely fucks with unidirectional attacks like Kotal’s U2 and U3. He uses it a lot with his most recent matches with Aquaman that I posted. However, the bad thing is that you essentially put your self in the corner if they don’t wake up and you need to fight your way back out. On a right read it’s super godlike though

 

[MKF30]

When you do something like d1~special on block the vast majority of characters tend to have a gap between the poke and special that is interruptable or flawless blockable. Some moves don't have such a gap, like Johnny's Rising Star, and Raiden's Storm Cell, forcing the opponent to block everything or get hit.

This means with the change you're suggesting Raiden can use Storm Cell from any button with impunity. Nobody else in the game would have something this powerful.

Oh you're talking pokes cancelling into specials, it's a good tool but nothing that can't be blocked. Know what I mean? A lot of moves in this game can't be interrupted though, Kabal players can do everything for free because they don't have to worry about getting punished, his strings all of them are safe. The difference between Rising Star and SC is big though as with Cage he's super safe and has the advantage especially in the corner, Raiden's SC though if you block he's not at the advantage but disadvantage because it's not safe. Blocking or getting hit is an issue with everyone though.

It doesn't matter anyway because it's obvious NRS don't care about making Raiden good, when I say good I mean viable to win a tournament. If this happens I'll change my mind though but til then....

 

[Mandolore1123]

Oh you're talking pokes cancelling into specials, it's a good tool but nothing that can't be blocked. Know what I mean? A lot of moves in this game can't be interrupted though, Kabal players can do everything for free because they don't have to worry about getting punished, his strings all of them are safe. The difference between Rising Star and SC is big though as with Cage he's super safe and has the advantage especially in the corner, Raiden's SC though if you block he's not at the advantage but disadvantage because it's not safe. Blocking or getting hit is an issue with everyone though.

It doesn't matter anyway because it's obvious NRS don't care about making Raiden good, when I say good I mean viable to win a tournament. If this happens I'll change my mind though but til then....

Not many moves in this game jail after pokes. Lab it
Kabal can’t do everything for free. He’s negative after every string. Learn to take your turn. Lab it.
Rising star is only safe on amp and even then it doesn’t lead to a combo. Storm cell leads to a combo. Huge difference in reward. Hence why storm cell is unsafe

 

[SparkySanders]

His tp on oki is a anti-wake-up set up that absolutely fucks with unidirectional attacks like Kotal’s U2 and U3. He uses it a lot with his most recent matches with Aquaman that I posted. However, the bad thing is that you essentially put your self in the corner if they don’t wake up and you need to fight your way back out. On a right read it’s super godlike though

I was thinking of his aquaman matches specifically, it definitely is with wake ups but I’m fairly certain aquaman was blowing him up after a couple times putting himself in the corner.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

Oh you're talking pokes cancelling into specials, it's a good tool but nothing that can't be blocked. Know what I mean?

Considering the post you quoted was about blocking, yes I do. That was the point; it forces you to block it.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I was thinking of his aquaman matches specifically, it definitely is with wake ups but I’m fairly certain aquaman was blowing him up after a couple times putting himself in the corner.

Yeah. Aquaman made the adjustment. He got mopped in that set. But I’m definitely stealing that anti wake up tech

 

[MKF30]

When you do something like d1~special on block the vast majority of characters tend to have a gap between the poke and special that is interruptable or flawless blockable. Some moves don't have such a gap, like Johnny's Rising Star, and Raiden's Storm Cell, forcing the opponent to block everything or get hit.

This means with the change you're suggesting Raiden can use Storm Cell from any button with impunity. Nobody else in the game would have something this powerful.


But I just explained why this move is unsafe...


It would be if this move could be made safe. That is the point I've been making months ago.

I do it all the time though and people who are good at defense block it when I mix up his D3 or D1 into SC.

We all know why it's unsafe and it's dumb that NRS did it that way. Normally ok I'm fine with the normal version but AMPed? Another reason why I'm against it is simple, on block you just wasted a bar of meter which in this game is crucial compared to previous MK's. We'll see, the game hasn't ended it's lifecycle yet anything can happen but it's pretty obvious they don't care about Raiden

 

[MKF30]

Considering the post you quoted was about blocking, yes I do. That was the point; it forces you to block it.

What special move don't force you to block though?

 

[MKF30]

Not many moves in this game jail after pokes. Lab it
Kabal can’t do everything for free. He’s negative after every string. Learn to take your turn. Lab it.
Rising star is only safe on amp and even then it doesn’t lead to a combo. Storm cell leads to a combo. Huge difference in reward. Hence why storm cell is unsafe

A lot of poke cancels are just as effective though No he's not you're wrong, everyone knows Kabal is safe on practically everything. Lab it. I already know it.

Yes, exactly only on AMP. That's why Raiden's SC should be too. Yeah just ignore the fact that Cage has the advantage on block on that move....It's unsafe because NRS are boneheads with Raiden in this game, notice majority feels Raiden is low tier. I guess some people don't want him better shrugs have fun with low tier Raiden, once Fujin hits I'll most likely use him less anyway. We'll see if they dick him over as well.

 

[SparkySanders]

Yeah. Aquaman made the adjustment. He got mopped in that set. But I’m definitely stealing that anti wake up tech

Oh without a doubt. Me too actually, just need to not over use it and I’m sure it works wonders.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

I do it all the time though and people who are good at defense block it when I mix up his D3 or D1 into SC.

It's a risk currently due to being unsafe. If it could be made safe this tactic becomes insanely strong.

We all know why it's unsafe and it's dumb that NRS did it that way.

I don't think you really understand the reasons why; only that it is. It's not dumb because it's the reason this move is fair.

Normally ok I'm fine with the normal version but AMPed? Another reason why I'm against it is simple, on block you just wasted a bar of meter which in this game is crucial compared to previous MK's.

Not at all. Meter refills on its own at a specific rate based on the move that was used. In theory they could make his atk bar regen slower after amping SC if it was made safe, but I still don't think that would be good enough. As others have said Raiden can play safe until a bar comes back, or play in such a way that he's always got one available without much effort. He simply would never have a reason to expose himself while managing his meter regen and could just panic SC on a whim if he really needs to because there would be literally no risk to himself.

What special move don't force you to block though?

You're misunderstanding. The reason d1~special is strong for a move like Johnny's is because there's no room to interrupt it between the d1 and the special. Being forced to block in this case refers to being locked into blocking everything after the d1. Normally there would be a gap here to take advantage of if the opponent gets stale doing d1~special gimmicks, which is essentially what it is; a gimmick.

Since Storm Cell also has no gap here, if it were able to be made safe Raiden could guarantee block pressure into a move that potentially can launch you into a full combo and has no room to interrupt and hits for a total of 4 times from the fastest class of mid in the game (which is specifically made to be unable to start combos for this very reason). This is where it stops being a gimmick and becomes an insanely powerful tool.

This would be busted.

For reference: Raijin's df2 can be made safe with Quick Charge, but this move has a gap when trying to d1~special and can be interrupted, isn't a launcher, etc etc.

 

[Mandolore1123]

everyone knows Kabal is safe on practically everything. Lab it. I already know it.

He is minus after every string. You can’t punish him but your moves come out faster than his next move.

Let’s use Kabal’s F224 string as an example. He is -2 on block. Let’s say he does his fastest move which is D1. His D1 starts up in 7 frames. By the laws of the game and arithmetic, due to the fact that he is -2 on block from F224, his D1 now starts up in 9 frames if he is frame perfect. You should be doing your own 7f D1, which will start up in 5f due to the Kabal being -2. Since 9>5, therefore if you are on point your D1 will ALWAYS beat out his D1.

Well let’s say he’s mashing and you for some reason can’t do your D1 before he does his. Well you keep blocking because you don’t want to give him his hit advantage off D1. Now he’s minus -4, even more minus than before. Now if you do your D1, it starts up in 3 frames, and his next D1 starts up in 11f. You have an 8 Frame window to contest him. This is how you take your turn. If he blocks your D1, boohoo, welcome to fighting games, try again.

This is how you take your turn. Safe doesn’t mean he can press whatever he wants afterwards. LAB IT

 

[MKF30]

He is minus after every string. You can’t punish him but your moves come out faster than his next move.

Let’s use Kabal’s F224 string as an example. He is -2 on block. Let’s say he does his fastest move which is D1. His D1 starts up in 7 frames. By the laws of the game and arithmetic, due to the fact that he is -2 on block from F224, his D1 now starts up in 9 frames if he is frame perfect. You should be doing your own 7f D1, which will start up in 5f due to the Kabal being -2. Since 9>5, therefore if you are on point your D1 will ALWAYS beat out his D1.

Well let’s say he’s mashing and you for some reason can’t do your D1 before he does his. Well you keep blocking because you don’t want to give him his hit advantage off D1. Now he’s minus -4, even more minus than before. Now if you do your D1, it starts up in 3 frames, and his next D1 starts up in 11f. You have an 8 Frame window to contest him. This is how you take your turn. If he blocks your D1, boohoo, welcome to fighting games, try again.

This is how you take your turn. Safe doesn’t mean he can press whatever he wants afterwards. LAB IT

Have labbed it and don't see the big deal. Also, lots of characters can special cancel not just RAiden into specials. You have to block against anyone you're facing, Raiden is no different. There are characters who do launch juggles or that stun you, bounce you etc for combo damage. I'm aware of how fighting games work, been playing them before you were born so spare me the bs. Maybe you should look up what balance means. So you try again.

Stop saying lab it, you're the one that needs to lab it I've gotten demi god every season of KL with Raiden and Jade ED, characters that aren't exactly dominant vs majority of the worst especially Raiden. Have you done that?

It's a risk currently due to being unsafe. If it could be made safe this tactic becomes insanely strong.

I don't think you really understand the reasons why; only that it is. It's not dumb because it's the reason this move is fair.

Not at all. Meter refills on its own at a specific rate based on the move that was used. In theory they could make his atk bar regen slower after amping SC if it was made safe, but I still don't think that would be good enough. As others have said Raiden can play safe until a bar comes back, or play in such a way that he's always got one available without much effort. He simply would never have a reason to expose himself while managing his meter regen and could just panic SC on a whim if he really needs to because there would be literally no risk to himself.

You're misunderstanding. The reason d1~special is strong for a move like Johnny's is because there's no room to interrupt it between the d1 and the special. Being forced to block in this case refers to being locked into blocking everything after the d1. Normally there would be a gap here to take advantage of if the opponent gets stale doing d1~special gimmicks, which is essentially what it is; a gimmick.

Since Storm Cell also has no gap here, if it were able to be made safe Raiden could guarantee block pressure into a move that potentially can launch you into a full combo and has no room to interrupt and hits for a total of 4 times from the fastest class of mid in the game (which is specifically made to be unable to start combos for this very reason). This is where it stops being a gimmick and becomes an insanely powerful tool.

This would be busted.

For reference: Raijin's df2 can be made safe with Quick Charge, but this move has a gap when trying to d1~special and can be interrupted, isn't a launcher, etc etc.

I'm not misunderstanding I understand well actually, I don't think you're ignoring the fact that other characters have STRONG tools some even said on here to be broken or too OP yet still exist in the game, yet you're hellbent on Raiden not getting better in TW. He could use that buff and it wouldn't break the game or him. There's far worse characters that are S tier and A tier far more annoying to fight.

Disagree, it is dumb because that was his key move they changed from previous games and now it's super punishable even when amped. NRS rushed this game nevermind that issue but various other issues wrong with the game...If he had other tools to make up for it, I wouldn't have a problem but the issue is he sucks all around as many Raiden players have pointed out both on here and elsewhere. Why do you think no tourney players use him or if they did gave up?

I'm saying lots of characters can D1 into cancels yet lead to good damage, in fact better than Raiden's yet you have a problem with Raiden improving? Also you guys have to consider with online timing changes with ping, wifi etc the same things that work offline won't work online. Also, another bad thing that nobody has mentioned wrong with SC so I will, when he's doing it and connects for a combo and opponents breakaway, guess what? He's again at the disadvantage because he's standing there raving and the opponent has already landed and recovered thus able to punish him. The move gets punished overall way too easily be it on block or on BA. It's stupid and needs to be improved.

Raijin is entirely different and requires a buff though, you guys don't have issues with that move making his strings, moves etc safe but one move in TW clearly a weaker variation you do. This just doesn't make sense to me so probably just best to agree to disagree at this point.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Have labbed it and don't see the big deal. Also, lots of characters can special cancel not just RAiden into specials. You have to block against anyone you're facing, Raiden is no different. There are characters who do launch juggles or that stun you, bounce you etc for combo damage. I'm aware of how fighting games work, been playing them before you were born so spare me the bs. Maybe you should look up what balance means. So you try again.

You are literally arguing with me that Kabal can press whatever he wants after his string because he’s safe. I just proved he can’t yet I am the one who has to lab? This isn’t even a lab issue. It’s simple arithmetic you learn in primary school. I know what balance means, and it’s certainly not what you’re suggesting. If you’ve been playing fighting games from before I was born why are you having trouble with what I’m explaining? It’s simple frame data. You can’t even understand the meaning of being minus.

Stop saying lab it, you're the one that needs to lab it I've gotten demi god every season of KL with Raiden and Jade ED, characters that aren't exactly dominant vs majority of the worst especially Raiden. Have you done that?

Stop pretending your online credentials means anything to anyone. The only thing that matters are tournament results. You complain so much about online KL lag and cheaters and scrubs but you hold your own KL results in such high esteem. Stop being so inconsistent.

 

[MagicMan357]

@Mandolore1123 dont even waste your time

 

[MKF30]

Ahh seems yet another thread has attracted the attention of our favorite "poster"@DeftMonk if you want a laugh.

You are literally arguing with me that Kabal can press whatever he wants after his string because he’s safe. I just proved he can’t yet I am the one who has to lab? This isn’t even a lab issue. It’s simple arithmetic you learn in primary school. I know what balance means, and it’s certainly not what you’re suggesting. If you’ve been playing fighting games from before I was born why are you having trouble with what I’m explaining? It’s simple frame data. You can’t even understand the meaning of being minus.


Stop pretending your online credentials means anything to anyone. The only thing that matters are tournament results. You complain so much about online KL lag and cheaters and scrubs but you hold your own KL results in such high esteem. Stop being so inconsistent.

Stop pretending you know me and what I know because you don't, your elitist attitude does you no credit and does not aid in your argument.

It does when it's what most go by stop pretending you what you're talking about by using others vids without posting your own. If you disagree let's play and we'll see who knows more. Stop ignoring logic. Sure I'll listen to a dude who can't even back his claims via an easy video. lol

Yeah because kl is filled with bs any idiot knows this, if you think it's so perfect then you're living in your own reality.

You obviously dont know much about kabal. Show me which strings you can punish, I'll wait for vids.

I already know the meaning of minus, plus and balance as I said I've been playing mk before you were even a thought. Everyone knows mk 11 is more gimmicky as oppose to previous games, if you don't get what that means then no point in trying to convince you.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

been playing them before you were born so spare me the bs

as I said I've been playing mk before you were even a thought.

This is unnecessary. It proves nothing and all you're doing is being rude as an attempt to show clout. Please stop.

I've gotten demi god every season of KL with Raiden

I've typically avoided bringing this up since it's not important, but I also have hit DG with Raiden on every season I've cared to reach DG for. This doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

So we're both day 1 Raiden mains that can reach DG. Now what?

A person doesn't have to be skilled at the game to understand how the game works and be well versed in its theory, which Mando clearly is.
Being good at the game certainly helps in understanding it, but is by no means the only answer. The vast majority of game designers aren't very good at their own game, yet they without question understand the game better than almost anyone and for good reason.

Challenging someone to a 1v1 as a means of proving who's right has to be the dumbest trend the FGC has hung onto throughout its history, especially against someone who openly admits they are less skilled at the game despite being very on point with their analysis of said game so far. If you trash him in a match it doesn't make what you're saying correct. Full stop.

I'm not misunderstanding I understand well actually,

I'm sorry, but you have repeatedly shown evidence of the contrary, such as the following:

yet you're hellbent on Raiden not getting better in TW.

I have never once claimed or implied that I don't want TW improved, or that I don't want Raiden improved. You have made this bizarre claim before and I have in fact explicitly stated that I am only arguing against Storm Cell being safe and nothing more in this regard. How you've interpreted that into my or anyone being against the character improving is such a stretch that Dhalsim would be impressed. This is called a strawman.

I'm saying lots of characters can D1 into cancels yet lead to good damage, in fact better than Raiden's yet you have a problem with Raiden improving?

Again, I'm not against Raiden getting some buffs at all. Again you're showing that you're misunderstanding this debate completely. Seems like a bad idea to be telling others to stop ignoring logic by comparison.

Raijin is entirely different and requires a buff though, you guys don't have issues with that move making his strings, moves etc safe but one move in TW clearly a weaker variation you do. This just doesn't make sense to me so probably just best to agree to disagree at this point.

Once again, Electric Burst cannot launch or extend combos. Storm Cell can. This really isn't as difficult to sort out as you're making it.

I'm truly not attempting to cast shade here, but your claims only grow wilder each time you post and yet you claim to understand the situation perfectly yet feel the need to dismiss someone simply for thinking they're younger than you and less experienced as a means of proving your point of view. It's dishonest and frankly ignorant. Resorting to "1v1 me bro" is even worse on top of that.
Attack the argument, not the man.

We can buff Raiden in several ways, just not by making Storm Cell safe. That's like using a sledgehammer to hang a picture frame.