Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

[JJParker]

So you ignore Raijin and fixate on B12 yet again. Also didn’t someone already say that B12~rod was safe on block?

B12 rod is minus 21 I think. You can dash up and punish him. Same with the jo push. B12 should not be an unsafe string. There is no reason for it to be.

 

[Mandolore1123]

B12 rod is minus 21 I think. You can dash up and punish him. Same with the jo push. B12 should not be an unsafe string. There is no reason for it to be.

You can do B12~DB4 amp. Putting them right at the edge of the bubble and any punish attempt gets shut down and leaves you at advantage. Sure it costs resources, but it’s like his other variations. B12 doesn’t necessarily need to be safe. It’s purpose is to be a hit-confirmable 11f mid punisher/whiff punisher. If you are pressuring up close, you should use F3 and F32. Both are safe and hit mid mid and F3 is 11f. Even looking at hit advantage, F3 on hit leaves you right next to them at +15, jailing into 243 or another mid. B1/B12 on hit gives less frame advantage and leaves you at a further distance so it’s harder to capitalise. Same reason why B12 storm cell combos do less damage on females and using any other starter doesn’t have this problem.

 

[BuffRaidenPlz]

We can debate all day about the fundamentals but looking at the raw data on Xbox I only see one player in the top 100 ranked that mains Raiden and he hovers around rank 40 to 60. In the top 100 of kasual I see 0 Raidens at all. In tourney's he has minimal representation.

 

[Mandolore1123]

We can debate all day about the fundamentals but looking at the raw data on Xbox I only see one player in the top 100 ranked that mains Raiden and he hovers around rank 40 to 60. In the top 100 of kasual I see 0 Raidens at all. In tourney's he has minimal representation.

Never said he doesn’t need help. He needs help. He isn’t a good character. What I don’t understand is that people fixate on B12 or storm cell and want to make him into something like Liu Kang or Geras where the entire game plan revolves around one string. Make lightning strike safer, make BF1 a bit faster, FIX HIS HITBOXES and touch up his frame data a little bit.
If people want plus frames, why fixate on his forward advancing string without a hurt box when S3 is +3 and an 11f high? If they just fixed the hitbox he can jail off his pokes into plus frames or throw it out close range because people are scared of F3. Maybe buff 321 too so the risk reward isn’t so skewed.

 

[Kotal Dahn]

Never said he doesn’t need help. He needs help. He isn’t a good character. What I don’t understand is that people fixate on B12 or storm cell and want to make him into something like Liu Kang or Geras where the entire game plan revolves around one string. Make lightning strike safer, make BF1 a bit faster, FIX HIS HITBOXES and touch up his frame data a little bit.
If people want plus frames, why fixate on his forward advancing string without a hurt box when S3 is +3 and an 11f high? If they just fixed the hitbox he can jail off his pokes into plus frames or throw it out close range because people are scared of F3. Maybe buff 321 too so the risk reward isn’t so skewed.

I think b2 should have its forward hit range increased ever so slightly too, no more t-rex arm whiffs

 

[Mel0]

I think b2 should have its forward hit range increased ever so slightly too, no more t-rex arm whiffs

If I had a nickel...

 

[Iustinus]

Who should I drop Raiden for? Cetrion? She's got the teleport lol

 

[Trustful_Whale]

This is Paulo's response to someone asking about Raiden's var 3:



To say this about what is intended to be a tournament viable variation has me shook.

 

[Zanotello]

I practiced a little using Raiden's 3rd variation.

I'm not a pro, but I think it maybe is not bad, but advanced.

I think that DB4 move has A LOT OF POTENCIAL. Mainly for pressure.

And the Jo Staff has a imense hitbox, doesn't it?

Am I the only one?

 

[Marlow]

I practiced a little using Raiden's 3rd variation.

I'm not a pro, but I think it maybe is not bad, but advanced.

I think that DB4 move has A LOT OF POTENCIAL. Mainly for pressure.

And the Jo Staff has a imense hitbox, doesn't it?

Am I the only one?

I want to believe in the potential, but I just don't see it in it's current state.

There are certainly some setups to be had, but the reward for those setups is pretty minimal. The penalty for the opponent leaving the bubble is pretty weak, something like 3%-6% damage with almost no hit stun. So even if you do something like B12xxAmped Rod, and immediately follow it up with another B12 to apply pressure, the opponent will likely be able to block and maybe even punish. Getting a combo off of the hit for leaving the bubble seems very random. If the opponent simply blocks your follow up they'll probably only take minimal chip. If you're able to set up the bubble at more of a full screen or far distance you can try and pressure with Raiden's projectiles, but you'll likely only be able to get 2 off, which the opponent can just block and take something like 5% chip. Depending on what the opponents projectile is like, they may even be able to win a trade at that point.

Jo Push is nice, but slow startup and limited damage/combo ability.

 

[Marlow]

I do hope there's some stuff to be found though. I'm not super creative, so maybe somebody else is able to actually find something. At the very least DB4 can make B12 safe for the cost of a bar, so there's that. I plan on sticking it out with Raiden's 3rd for a little bit regardless.

 

[Marlow]

One thing that would be nice is if the Lightning Rod was able to eat the opponent's projectile. That way at least Raiden gets an automatic trade/chip situation in his favor if he's able to activate the Rod full screen. Otherwise as it is now I feel like a Sonya or Johnny or any character with a fast projectile can easily block one of Raiden's projectiles and then punish or trade with one of their own, even with the rod out and the bubble up.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I’ll try it out too when I have the time, the main problem I see is probably the duration of rod on screen. It’s really too short, Raiden barely has time to get out 2 projectiles before it’s gone, not to mention it puts Raiden at an uncomfortable range to really capitalise depending on the move. I dislike fly being replaced because it hurts Raiden’s comeback factor a lot. Losing access to easy corner carry I think will affect matches a lot since Raiden easily suffocates characters in the corner.

 

[ExpectFlames]

So you ignore Raijin and fixate on B12 yet again. Also didn’t someone already say that B12~rod was safe on block?

It's safe as in they cant hit you with a forward advancing string without getting hit out of it.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

One thing that would be nice is if the Lightning Rod was able to eat the opponent's projectile. That way at least Raiden gets an automatic trade/chip situation in his favor if he's able to activate the Rod full screen. Otherwise as it is now I feel like a Sonya or Johnny or any character with a fast projectile can easily block one of Raiden's projectiles and then punish or trade with one of their own, even with the rod out and the bubble up.

To add to this, any time the rod goes down your opponent knows for a fact that you will try for a projectile now since the duration is so comically short and our projectiles take almost 0.5 seconds to happen and recover from. Most of the time they will just rush you in response, which should be pretty easy since you now don't even have Jo Push or Fly or even f1 to help defend that area.

I see the area denial they were going for with Jo Push + Summoned Lightning, which is totally fine in its own right, but I really would like to know why choosing two conflicting special moves was the way to go for this variation. This detail alone should have either shut it down or called for big adjustments to compensate, but instead we just get nothing and a pair of 8-bit sunglasses.

 

[ExpectFlames]

This is Paulo's response to someone asking about Raiden's var 3:

View attachment 15998

To say this about what is intended to be a tournament viable variation has me shook.

Yo can we talk about this? Like what type of fucking response is this. Its BEYOND ARROGANT not to mention stupid. Hes legit saying basically shut the fuck up and play it and like it or be a sheep.

Yo of this is legit Palo I'm done. I Refused to be cucked. Paid top money for mk and DLC not to have my intelligence shit on by some fuck. fuck that.

 

[Marlow]

It's safe as in they cant hit you with a forward advancing string without getting hit out of it.

If you do the close amped Rod, doesn't that put the bubble between you and the opponent?

 

[Marlow]

This is Paulo's response to someone asking about Raiden's var 3:

View attachment 15998

To say this about what is intended to be a tournament viable variation has me shook.

I don't know, is there any more context? I usually like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Seems more like he's saying try and explore the character for yourself instead of relying on hot takes, or just look to see what other people come up with. Also, although it can be read as arrogant, I also assume Paulo gets a ton of comments blasting him non stop about literally every character, so I'd assume that just in general he probably gets a little defensive and doesn't have a ton of patience, especially in a chat room setting.

It just reminds me an awful lot of how some baseball analysts can be during their "prospect chats" where they field questions from anonymous users who just seem to want to bash them for not falling in love with their team's prospects. What I'm saying is Chat Room Paulo may not be Paulo at his best, so I'm not sure how seriously to take him.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

I don't know, is there any more context? I usually like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Seems more like he's saying try and explore the character for yourself instead of relying on hot takes, or just look to see what other people come up with. Also, although it can be read as arrogant, I also assume Paulo gets a ton of comments blasting him non stop about literally every character, so I'd assume that just in general he probably gets a little defensive and doesn't have a ton of patience, especially in a chat room setting.

It just reminds me an awful lot of how some baseball analysts can be during their "prospect chats" where they field questions from anonymous users who just seem to want to bash them for not falling in love with their team's prospects. What I'm saying is Chat Room Paulo may not be Paulo at his best, so I'm not sure how seriously to take him.

My issue with his response is the "do you only have fun when you win?" comment. I agree about giving the benefit of the doubt, but this line here coming from the man himself is a lot like admitting the variation is weak and we should just pretend we're playing kasual mode or something.

Of course winning isn't the be-all, but for a tournament approved variation saying something like this is pretty concerning to me. Also I'm definitely a full supporter of the "wait and see" attitude, but now that I have waited for the patch notes and seen this variation in action I'm at a complete loss what Paulo expects us to do with it.

Ignoring the part where he took away fly, Lightning Rod itself makes no sense in its current state. I know I've been repeating myself but I just can't understand the decision to give us a generated object of the fight line that exists for barely enough time to get 2 back to back (incredibly slow) projectiles out. This object then also takes away an important spacing normal (f1) and the entire other special move the variation features.

Variations are supposed to have synergy, yet this one is actively working against itself when used, and simply equipping this variation nerfs Raiden.


So, again, I find it concerning when the lead combat designer gives the equivalent of a shrug when asked about it.
Also, to deliver a bit more on the context, the question he was asked was very polite:

 

[Iustinus]

NRS just doesn't give a shit about Raiden or his fans anymore. Let's be serious. If we take story mode at face value, he probably won't even be in the next MK - certainly not in the classic form we've known him forever.

 

[ExpectFlames]

If you do the close amped Rod, doesn't that put the bubble between you and the opponent?

On block yeah, its tricky though 2 hits and anything that would advance them beyond the bubble thell get hit. Most forward throws get blown up as well. So unless they d1 yo to death should be fine. But I havent played the character proper hes so bad it's noteven funny.

 

[ExpectFlames]

My issue with his response is the "do you only have fun when you win?" comment. I agree about giving the benefit of the doubt, but this line here coming from the man himself is a lot like admitting the variation is weak and we should just pretend we're playing kasual mode or something.

Of course winning isn't the be-all, but for a tournament approved variation saying something like this is pretty concerning to me. Also I'm definitely a full supporter of the "wait and see" attitude, but now that I have waited for the patch notes and seen this variation in action I'm at a complete loss what Paulo expects us to do with it.

Ignoring the part where he took away fly, Lightning Rod itself makes no sense in its current state. I know I've been repeating myself but I just can't understand the decision to give us a generated object of the fight line that exists for barely enough time to get 2 back to back (incredibly slow) projectiles out. This object then also takes away an important spacing normal (f1) and the entire other special move the variation features.

Variations are supposed to have synergy, yet this one is actively working against itself when used, and simply equipping this variation nerfs Raiden.


So, again, I find it concerning when the lead combat designer gives the equivalent of a shrug when asked about it.
Also, to deliver a bit more on the context, the question he was asked was very polite:

View attachment 15999

His response makes even less sense now.
I dont subscribe to idea that you should get upset or salty at anyone's take on any art that you make. Saying this being an artist people say my works shit but I ain't giving them the equivalent of the finger.

 

[SparkySanders]

Man that paulo reply pretty much sums it up, it’s looking like the canon story ending for raiden is setting him up to be removed from any further instalments of mk. I’m assuming that’s why they kinda do him dirty patch after patch.

 

[Black Chapters]

I do hope there's some stuff to be found though. I'm not super creative, so maybe somebody else is able to actually find something. At the very least DB4 can make B12 safe for the cost of a bar, so there's that. I plan on sticking it out with Raiden's 3rd for a little bit regardless.

there isn't

 

[samiorfali]

An Infographic showing Raiden's Weaknesses.
#BuffRaiden