Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

[EarlyReflections]

I would just like to know the reasoning behind the construction of Truth and Light. Why these moves, at this cost. This isn't out of rush or mistake.

 

[Marlow]

An Infographic showing Raiden's Weaknesses.

Cool.

 

[Marlow]

I would just like to know the reasoning behind the construction of Truth and Light. Why these moves, at this cost. This isn't out of rush or mistake.

I understand the why of the moves, but the cost and poor execution is mind boggling.

 

[EarlyReflections]

The b2 KB usually works on mirror matches. Has anyone else noticed this?
I've been on both ends more times than I should.

 

[SparkySanders]

If you end a corner combo in b2 ie j4 243 storm cell ji2 b2, the chances of getting a second one increase ever so slightly. But most of the time I think it’s just mu inexperience.

I have been on the receiving end once or twice in the mirror though, stupid avoidable shit.

 

[Wizanski]

An Infographic showing Raiden's Weaknesses.
#BuffRaiden

I'd add the B14 overhead is a highly punishable -14. It's the only 50/50 he has if you don't count the threat of a low attack after landing a B2.

 

[samiorfali]

I'd add the B14 overhead is a highly punishable -14. It's the only 50/50 he has if you don't count the threat of a low attack after landing a B2.

ends in overhead and cant be canceled into a special for a Kombo

 

[Wizanski]

ends in overhead and cant be canceled into a special for a Kombo

I don't so much mind that it can't be cancelled into a special. B14's purpose is to mix up. You condition the enemy with B12 strings and special move cancels and when they get used to that you throw in the B14 to catch them out with the overhead. Instead of being -14 it should be something like -10 or -9.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

An Infographic showing Raiden's Weaknesses.
View attachment 16000 #BuffRaiden

I don't agree with a lot of this but here goes:

• f3 is a staggerable mid that is +15 on hit and jails big time. This meme about Raiden not having mids needs to stop.
• Storm Cell isn't supposed to be safe, nor is Fly. Making these moves safe would only promote braindead play from Raiden. Neither of these moves need buffs in any way. SC is a massive stun launcher ffs.
• Lightning Strike input is wrong.
• Lightning Bolt's starts up in 28 frames, not 20.
• 321 I agree with; the plus frames need to be increased or the gap reduced, and s3's hitbox should be brought forward slightly so it's actually a reliable punish option for optimal damage and consistency. s3 is great on block and hit but it's simply too goofy to rely on in its current form.
• b2 simply needs a slight range increase, nothing else.
• b2 KB is fine
• Fly KB is usable, but definitely could be a lot better so I agree with improving this
• typo in the KB section
• 3rd variation sucks I agree
• s2 could be faster I agree

Now I would add:

• make b12 safe - I don't particularly care about this but everyone is constantly obsessed with talking about it, and while I do agree there's no reason for it to not be safe, fixing this isn't going to be the magic panacea everyone thinks it is
• make b14 either safe or faster - This string is meant to help our mix but it's too easily blocked and there's no real mixup. Needs to be a touch faster or safe to give Raijin an actual mixup here with db4. Instead of both options on the 50/50 being unsafe, having just one being unsafe like most of the other characters with these options seems more than reasonable.
• make b31 pop up higher so Raiden can combo into Summoned Lightning on females mid screen
• make Lightning Bolt and Lightning Strike faster. Nuff said.
• Lighting Strike allowed to amp on whiff and block again
• extend U2's vertical hitbox in both directions to prevent neutral jump beating this move and avoid whiffs on fblock punishes
• extend f1 hitbox forward and slightly downward to properly match the the size of the staff and expected hit region; this whiffs too often in situations where it looks like it should connect.
• make first hit of b2 special cancelable - it used to be but they took it away before we even got to try it.
• Jo Push should replace nothing. Why is this a 2-slot move?
• Reduce Jo Push knockback, give us the mid screen damage back.
• Lightning Rod duration removed. Amplified Lightning Rod no longer disappears after popping the lightning bubble.

It's a nice graphic but please do a finishing check on it to avoid wrong info and keep it looking sharp.

 

[Mandolore1123]

An Infographic showing Raiden's Weaknesses.
View attachment 16000 #BuffRaiden

I don’t understand this at all. DF2 (lightning strike) is -29, not DB2. Raiden DOES have a mid stagger, it’s called F3 but people somehow forget it’s in the move list.

Thunder Wave’s unsafe specials?? You mean the combo launcher that Raiden can use to turn any hit into good damage? Your problem is that it’s unsafe? Of course it should be unsafe. Superman being unsafe on block is entirely normal when you have no reason on doing superman on block, it exists for corner carry and ending combos. Lightning bolt is your primary zoning tool, why would you care that it’s unsafe at -11 when you are throwing this move out full screen. Bolt is also useful to end combos because it’s +11 on hit and leaves them standing. How can your rationale for buffing moves be “it’s unsafe if blocked it needs to be safe or plus” without taking into context the actual purpose of the move? Or just learn to block/hit-confirm into (relative) safety or damage. If you yolo superman or storm cell after every string and get punished it’s on YOU, not the developer for making a move unsafe.

I’ve gone through his B2KB more times than I can count. B2 KB exists not for the one-off damage that it can do, but for the threat of damage, opening up lows, throws, mids, staggers in the corner. Ending combos in B2 instantly makes the opponent panic and you can bait them into doing something stupid or just reset the threat by doing another combo that ends in B2 (at least in TW).

As for the 3rd variation being trash, as much as I dislike the replacement of fly and the apparent weaknesses of this variation, saying it’s trash only a few days after release is plain wrong when we clearly need more time to really ascertain what this variation can do.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

As for the 3rd variation being trash, as much as I dislike the replacement of fly and the apparent weaknesses of this variation, saying it’s trash only a few days after release is plain wrong when we clearly need more time to really ascertain what this variation can do.

I would normally agree, but we're talking about a variation that actively works against itself and gets in its own way for no reason. It doesn't even give us the tools to do what it seems to want us to do. It's trash.

 

[JeffX]

I don't agree with a lot of this but here goes:

• f3 is a staggerable mid that is +15 on hit and jails big time. This meme about Raiden not having mids needs to stop.
• Storm Cell isn't supposed to be safe, nor is Fly. Making these moves safe would only promote braindead play from Raiden. Neither of these moves need buffs in any way. SC is a massive stun launcher ffs.
• Lightning Strike input is wrong.
• Lightning Bolt's starts up in 28 frames, not 20.
• 321 I agree with; the plus frames need to be increased or the gap reduced, and s3's hitbox should be brought forward slightly so it's actually a reliable punish option for optimal damage and consistency. s3 is great on block and hit but it's simply too goofy to rely on in its current form.
• b2 simply needs a slight range increase, nothing else.
• b2 KB is fine
• Fly KB is usable, but definitely could be a lot better so I agree with improving this
• typo in the KB section
• 3rd variation sucks I agree
• s2 could be faster I agree

Now I would add:

• make b12 safe - I don't particularly care about this but everyone is constantly obsessed with talking about it, and while I do agree there's no reason for it to not be safe, fixing this isn't going to be the magic panacea everyone thinks it is
• make b14 either safe or faster - This string is meant to help our mix but it's too easily blocked and there's no real mixup. Needs to be a touch faster or safe to give Raijin an actual mixup here with db4. Instead of both options on the 50/50 being unsafe, having just one being unsafe like most of the other characters with these options seems more than reasonable.
• make b31 pop up higher so Raiden can combo into Summoned Lightning on females mid screen
• make Lightning Bolt and Lightning Strike faster. Nuff said.
• Lighting Strike allowed to amp on whiff and block again
• extend U2's vertical hitbox in both directions to prevent neutral jump beating this move and avoid whiffs on fblock punishes
• extend f1 hitbox forward and slightly downward to properly match the the size of the staff and expected hit region; this whiffs too often in situations where it looks like it should connect.
• make first hit of b2 special cancelable - it used to be but they took it away before we even got to try it.
• Jo Push should replace nothing. Why is this a 2-slot move?
• Reduce Jo Push knockback, give us the mid screen damage back.
• Lightning Rod duration removed, add function to manually recall the staff at any time. Amplified Lightning Rod no longer disappears after popping the lightning bubble.

It's a nice graphic but please do a finishing check on it to avoid wrong info and keep it looking sharp.

this is basically spot on.

 

[samiorfali]

thank you for the positive criticism @Trustful_Whale
- we cant consider F3 staggerable because it jails, we consider F3 and B12 stagerable if they are plus or they are not very minus on block. Liu Kang's 12for example is +3 on block thats staggerable! Scorpion's F3 is -2 on block. you can say these are stagerable. but raiden's F3 is -6 so if you poke after it for example d1 is +7 frames you will be 6+7= 13 , so the opponent has 13 frames to react, meaning the opponent can start his attack easily after F3 ... so its not staggerable on block, especially comparing to other characters.

i want to clarify that storm cell is not a launcher except if you spend one bar, i agree it shouldnt be safe but a 36 frame on recovery is too much, it would be fair if storm cell is safe on block only if you spend a bar if its blocked, many other characters are safe on amplify too, and some special are safe without.

b2 needs range and needs to lead to a kombo, it's KB requirement is silly in top level matches.

Thanks for the added bullet points ill read them later and see if i amend this infographic and add some of your. Maybe ill do another infographic if i have time, and it will be on how NRS could improve Raiden and why Raiden is low tire the last three NRS games.

 

[DDutchguy]

you can say these are stagerable. but raiden's F3 is -6 so if you poke after it for example d1 is +7 frames you will be 6+7= 13 , so the opponent has 13 frames to react, meaning the opponent can start his attack easily after F3

I don't think that's how reactions really work. It also depends on how much recovery the move has. Let's say Raiden's F3 hypothetically was still -6 on block, but had only 10 recovery frames. It would be extremely difficult for someone to react to only 10 frames of recovery.

Those 13 frames you're talking about don't really constitute reactions because you don't react to something being -6 on block. It's all in the recovery.

 

[Mandolore1123]

thank you for the positive criticism @Trustful_Whale
- we cant consider F3 staggerable because it jails, we consider F3 and B12 stagerable if they are plus or they are not very minus on block. Liu Kang's 12for example is +3 on block thats staggerable! Scorpion's F3 is -2 on block. you can say these are stagerable. but raiden's F3 is -6 so if you poke after it for example d1 is +7 frames you will be 6+7= 13 , so the opponent has 13 frames to react, meaning the opponent can start his attack easily after F3 ... so its not staggerable on block, especially comparing to other characters.

i want to clarify that storm cell is not a launcher except if you spend one bar, i agree it shouldnt be safe but a 36 frame on recovery is too much, it would be fair if storm cell is safe on block only if you spend a bar if its blocked, many other characters are safe on amplify too, and some special are safe without.

b2 needs range and needs to lead to a kombo, it's KB requirement is silly in top level matches.

Thanks for the added bullet points ill read them later and see if i amend this infographic and add some of your. Maybe ill do another infographic if i have time, and it will be on how NRS could improve Raiden and why Raiden is low tire the last three NRS games.

You forget there is an extra layer of mind games with staggering normals in this game. Flawless block reversals allow characters to punish poke attempts after normals, making them scared to press buttons which is the whole point of staggers. It’s hard to do in a match because of the inherent difficulty of flawless block but fight games should be balanced around the highest level of execution. F3 is a serviceable stagger because of this. Wouldn’t hurt to shave off some frames on block though.

Without considering flawless blocking, poking against Raiden is extremely strong because all his moves are relatively unsafe. For F3, using a 7f poke after blocking makes the poke come out at 1f, and Raiden’s faster button after F3 would be 13f. But if you want to make a lower tier character work, then it is natural that you need to put in more effort into utilising the tools that he has, however bad they may be.

 

[samiorfali]

Amended #BuffRaiden

 

[ExpectFlames]

but fight games should be balanced around the highest level of execution.

This makes no sense. The best characters in this game this franchise this genre of gaming are braindead potatoes. This is an ignorant arrogant mindset that doesn't solve anything. Raidens design as is a slap in the face to the genre.

 

[Mandolore1123]

This makes no sense. The best characters in this game this franchise this genre of gaming are braindead potatoes. This is an ignorant arrogant mindset that doesn't solve anything. Raidens design as is a slap in the face to the genre.

How is this arrogant? It’s common fact that a fighting game should be balanced around matchups at the highest level, where fair competition is essential. We cannot play matchups to the highest level. Just because we cannot win with Raiden doesn’t necessarily mean that the character lacks the tools to win. We can contribute to discussion but balance of the game should not be dictated by the level of play found in the average player. Whether or not the top tiers are brain dead is irrelevant. Kabal’s NMD cancels in MK9 were insanely hard to do, but that character had infinites and plus frames into mix-ups like no tomorrow. However, only a few people were ever successful with him because of the difficulty in execution. Does that make Kabal a more balanced character simply because not many people can use him to his full potential? No. Similarly, if we cannot use Raiden’s tools to the fullest extent, we will not have an educated opinion on matchups and hence an incorrect judgement on how his tools should be changed in order to increase viability.

This is the most balanced NRS title to date. Most if not every character has tools to deal with other characters. Raiden only suffers from having bad tools. It is fine for some characters to have worse tools compared to others. However you cannot say that a character is useless or bad and disregard the tools that he has, nor can you justify changing a character simply because other top tiers are easier to play or have a more linear gameplan.

 

[Gooberking]

This makes no sense. The best characters in this game this franchise this genre of gaming are braindead potatoes. This is an ignorant arrogant mindset that doesn't solve anything. Raidens design as is a slap in the face to the genre.

If you actually managed to get him turned into one of those braindead potatoes, no other community is going to respect you or the character any more than they did LK. People do not like fighting against characters that can just do one or two dumb things over and over without any real reason not to. It's also lame to play and generally refreshing to have options that aren't that way.

People can debate until the end of time about what should change, but the reality is NRS does buffing and nerfing in whatever way they see fit, and it rarely conforms to the long line of suggestions pouring out of the internet.

They are also having to take a far more holistic approach to character changes then fiddling with one character without regard to what ever else that could mean. That including everything from hyper casuals, to pro competition - pro competition being the only place where true character balance has to exist. Everywhere else it exists is a bonus. It's hard to guarantee a character will be balanced from "I don't know what I'm doing" to "I learned to hit confirm" to "I can flawless block now" to "I just cracked top 100"

 

[ExpectFlames]

They are also having to take a far more holistic approach to character changes then fiddling with one character without regard to what ever else that could mean. That including everything from hyper casuals, to pro competition - pro competition being the only place where true character balance has to exist. Everywhere else it exists is a bonus. It's hard to guarantee a character will be balanced from "I don't know what I'm doing" to "I learned to hit confirm" to "I can flawless block now" to "I just cracked top 100"

I agreed with everything you said until here.
Firstly I have never once advocated for raiden to get any buffs in particular, hes on the knifes edge of balence raijin with a change or 3 goes from last to top 3 easily. I only stated what the facts are, hes in a bad spot because not only are his tools bad his frame data is bad what should be his primary string f11 whifs and is negative no synergy with crushing blows. All of these things add to his worst character in the game status. What bothers me is the people who talk in circles around it. You'll say well he can do x y and z like that changes his overall position within the cast.

Enough with saying NRS takes any particular approach to balence. What's abundantly clear about this title is the amount of options you have, by sheer virtue of that you have balence by default. Yo we cant keep sitting here and saying that these third variations were thought out and painted with the love and artistic precision of past titles. You cannot tell me that raiden is better in injustice2 than he is in mk11, its devoid of reason lacking in logic.

When will enough be enough, not one of us who have played raiden from day 1 in mk11 want him to be anything other than playable.

I dont want to address balancing a game around 8 people in theory that works but practically the greatest games of all times could give a shit about a "pro scene"

 

[ExpectFlames]

Honestly though sick of the back and forth, if you guys are on psn I'm down to lvl and learn more about the character. PSN TheNewEbola.
And even though we may disagree thank you for playing the character
@Mandolore1123 @Gooberking

 

[MKF30]

Maybe we'll get the REAL Raiden for DLC. The one from like MK 2, MKvsDC, MK 9, MK X and not this poser they put in this game....

Also, just have to say SC being safe would not be braindead. Besides, we already have braindead shit in the game yet NRS hasn't nerfed/fixed it with Jax and Geras's dumb pressure? Talk about braindead. Raiden would not be braindead if he had safe SF plus considering how slow the move comes out and how easy it is to whiff on the last frame of the move and punish on block, really not a big deal. Now he shouldn't have that AND Superman safe of course, but SC should and can be safe. It's one move in ONE variation, not a big deal people.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

I wanna see some krushing blows off of lightning attacks, like bf1 or df2.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Honestly though sick of the back and forth, if you guys are on psn I'm down to lvl and learn more about the character. PSN TheNewEbola.
And even though we may disagree thank you for playing the character
@Mandolore1123 @Gooberking

If you are near Asia then we can play. I don’t play this game as much as I used to so I’m very rusty though. At the end of the day, I do want Raiden to be better. I agree that with a few buffs he can be very good.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I wanna see some krushing blows off of lightning attacks, like bf1 or df2.

I want to be able to combo into DF2 brutality. They took it away in the first patch