Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

[MKF30]

Turning storm cell into a braindead unga move isn't the answer to Raiden's problems, especially not in a game with variations. We aren't seeing a lack of Raiden in tournaments because Storm Cell is unsafe. I agree that Raiden needs something, but your suggestions are too overboard and also does not take variations into account.
I've said this before the Raijin buffs, but making SC safe would only result in us being married to Thunder Wave more than we already were since SC was at the time regarded as his best move already.

Refusing to swap to anything that doesn't have teleport is a you problem, even though I agree Raiden isn't himself without it. Having safe unga pressure isn't the only way to become viable either, but rejecting the variation system out of hand despite it having solutions for matchup issues is a choice.
Obviously your suggestions would make TW better, but that's also the problem since it would make TW the only choice ever.

I don't have to provide you video of B2 KB landing against good opponents. I've fought good opponents, I've hit people with the KB and I've even been hit with it myself. Keep in mind that B2 is 19 frames, which is the same speed as the dreaded and unstoppable Sub-Zero f2. Instead, I might suggest making b3 a frame or two faster to bring it more in line with Sub's b3, or give b2 more range as it's a little stubby.


If it's good for mix ups, how is it useless for the KB? Make up your mind dude.

We should be going about these things differently and not just slapping a huge change in like it'll fix everything. A simple improvement to both TW and b2KB would be allowing whiffs and teleports to not break the KB setup; this way we have even more opportunities to mix using b2 and teleport, etc.

I've already said, many times, how to make lightning strike useful again. It does not need a capture state on it. I don't think you're fully appreciating what you're asking for here.

Not a braindead to be actually useful, it's braindead now in a bad way. Dude, even most Raiden fans agree when this game hit, that they miss his electric grab for this pos move lol. Like I said they went out of their way to kill Raiden in this game compared to the previous 2 MK games. Not even debatable. Yeah a game with variations we can't even customize in serious play, so that's moot. If they change that you'd have a point and I agree but as of now we can't and are stuck with two pre done tourney variations. Some characters case one sucks, Raiden happens to be one of those characters. It takes variations into account, that's one of his main variations what do you mean not taking into account I'm taking it very much into account. Being married how? lol dude I rarely see TW anymore much less Raiden players in general. What's also a choice is NRS deciding to make Raiden viable or not, right now he is not sad to say. At least his TW variation.

No it's a Raiden player fanbase problem, unless you started to play MK with MK X it's commonly know that Raiden has always had a teleport starting with MK 1. So not a me problem, they're removing a key element to what makes Raiden Raiden not just lore wise but gameplay wise. Even most of the MKC are tired of variation system, it was cool at first but now it's gimmicky and unfair to certain characters.

It wouldn't make TW our only choice it would just make both good, look at Scorpion. Dude, both his variations are solid, sure his teleport got nerfed but it needed it. Noob's are both good, when I say good I mean good enough to be viable. Raiden I can't say that. If I could, we'd be seeing Raiden more in general both online and at majors. I'm also not saying that's the only way to make him viable, I'm saying it would make him better to do that among other changes. They don't have to do all of them otherwise he'd be broke but he can be improved upon being my point.

Yeah you do if what you say is true then no offense you're facing weak opponents. Because as I said, no serious high level match online or at a tourney will you see B2 KB connected. I'll believe it when I see it til then....not changing my stance on that one. It's a useless KB, period. Unless you're facing a noob then...

But again I'm not talking about landing B2, I'm talking about landing it twice in a row to get his KB against a GOOD opponent who knows what he's doing. I've never seen this done in a tight online, serious match or at a tourney. So if you're saying you've done it, yes I would need proof of seeing that done since I've never seen it and I've watched and played a ton of matches as well.

If you think I can't make up my mind then You're missing my point then mixing up is not the same as KB, B2 is two in a row. Once you nail someone with it they're going to expect it again, you think they're just going to let you hit them with it? When I say mix up I mean after a knock down or corner pressure, B2 is good to mix in there with B3, F3 or throws whatever but I'm talking strictly about his KB B2 being done consistently on par with say Scorpion's 3 hit KB or 2 hit kick KB. You can't honestly tell me it's on par with that or others like Sub's easier KB's to hit because it's not. I'm not sure how much more simplier I can explain it to you.A KB being viable or not has nothing to do with the move itself B2 being a good or bad mix up. That is not what I'm talking about...

I'm appreciating what I want trust me, been using Raiden TW since day one man lol I got to Demi God and almost God using nothing but him and Jade Season 2, but I don't think you're open to other Raiden players suggestions. Nobody is going to agree on everything. This is just what I would do personally. What you talk about was pre release, prototype MK 11 that ain't coming back so my idea is merely one of many ways to make it a relevant move lightning strike. All they have to do then with KB B2 as I have said for months is simply alter the requirement, make it so that if you connect it on the second try it automatically goes into KB. None of this "must be back to back with nothing else in between" bs. And Superman should just activate on the third connect amplified naked or in a combo(like LK's bike kick)

We seem to be going in circles here so probably just best to agree to disagree.

 

[Gooberking]

I know he is at the bottom , and there is probably something real to that, and that I'm lame and am probably not qualified to have any answers, BUT none of that up there sounds right.

No on that Storm Cell being safe stuff. You cant just hand out safe enders. It has such a large, hurtless hitbox, how are people even supposed to get to you at that point with that "added pushback"? There would be people just doing it over and over because why not. Hit confirm raw special into MB combo. That all seems super weird. It's a pretty good move overall, and you already have to kind of know how to punish it and be on point about it. Making his best move better, doesn't seem like a fix for anything.

I've harped on the U3 thing before, and just because it was being called bad, I started going through other character's U3. They pretty much all have some little gimmick, that if you know it's coming, you can use to blow one up. Raiden's can be hopped, big deal, so can Sonya's. JB and KLao be easily baited and backdashed. Lots of characters can be FB into making them unsafe. Hell, Noob's can be strait up ducked under. Things don't have to cover everything to have utility, and you have to respect the utility it has and be mindful of what it can't do. His has better range than most. The only one I've found so far that doesn't lack for anything is Scorpion's, but that doesn't mean hand that out to everyone. As for Raiden's, I just don't see anywhere enough wrong with in comparison to the rest of the cast to be complaining about it.

As a Kitana player, calling his U2 just drives me nuts. I can't even find a way to make her's hit anything in the game consistently outside of maybe Shang's scooping fist thing you have to FB to punish. (And that's talking in the lab setting, not even in real fights.) You can't anti air with it, You can't FB launch people that literally couldn't be any closer to you. You can't even FBU2 people doing deep jump in attacks that are still moving closer into you as they fall. I honestly don't know when you could possibly use it. I really like the idea of studying FB situations but I can't build around her U2 or build U2 habits with other characters because I will just wiff and die if I muscle memory in her U2 by habit. It's like the worst move in the game at actually hitting anyone, for any reason. All of that goes away when using Raiden's U2. It's a freaking magic move by comparison.

It has a noticeable dead zone as you move over his head, and it's very much a high strike move like many things in the game, but that sucker can FBU2 like a champ. That same thing that makes it bad as a anti-cross up tool, makes it pretty reliable as a post FB launcher. U2's aren't just about waking up. Just respect and accept the dead zone exists and don't try to force it to do something it can't do just because you want it to do more. There are plenty of situations it does work in. Again, this is spoken in comparison to a truly bad U2, which his is no where near as bad as. Maybe it's not great in comparison to the entire cast, but it has never been a complaint I've had playing him. It's a major problem playing K; who is supposedly better than him overall.

If you think I can't make up my mind then You're missing my point then mixing up is not the same as KB, B2 is two in a row. Once you nail someone with it they're going to expect it again, you think they're just going to let you hit them with it? When I say mix up I mean after a knock down or corner pressure, B2 is good to mix in there with B3, F3 or throws whatever but I'm talking strictly about his KB B2 being done consistently on par with say Scorpion's 3 hit KB or 2 hit kick KB. You can't honestly tell me it's on par with that or others like Sub's easier KB's to hit because it's not. I'm not sure how much more simplier I can explain it to you.

Isn't that the very point? Why even go for a second B2 after the first. You want them to expect it. You want them to be so very ready for you to do it again, so you can just do b3 instead.

 

[MKF30]

Isn't that the very point? Why even go for a second B2 after the first. You want them to expect it. You want them to be so very ready for you to do it again, so you can just do b3 instead.

Wouldn't be handing out safe enders, it's just one move. Considering all the dumb BS Geras, Scorpion and EB had I don't think asking for a move that's slow as hell and very punishable on block to be safe is asking for much. I actually like Kitana and Raiden's tier around the same, I think that's accurate from Mustard/Ketchup's tier list, of course people will always debate it but I think that match up is a good match up. Yeah the hop mechanic has it's uses and gimmicks. All I know is I never use his U2 because it whiffs or does nothing most of the time, people crossing me up I use it and whiffs I just wasted a bar and for nothing so I don't even use it. But the wake ups leave something to be desired in this game in general but that's a whole other topic.

I don't want them to expect it if I need that KB damage though lol. Know what I mean? But if I'm just going for mix ups, then I want to confound them with 50/50's but again this isn't my issue with B2. The move itself is fine, the 50/50(though it is punishable) but it's ok. My issue is the dumb requirement for it's KB....

 

[ExpectFlames]

Raiden does lose the cetrion matchup heavily. I swapped to her she does everything raiden does just better with better buttons

 

[MKF30]

Raiden does lose the cetrion matchup heavily. I swapped to her she does everything raiden does just better with better buttons

I had a guy counterpick me with her tonight after my Raiden beat his Noob, I swear I couldn't do much to her. It wasn't super lopsided but enough to where I felt like I didn't know what to do at times.

 

[ExpectFlames]

Wouldn't be handing out safe enders, it's just one move. Considering all the dumb BS Geras, Scorpion and EB had I don't think asking for a move that's slow as hell and very punishable on block to be safe is asking for much. I actually like Kitana and Raiden's tier around the same, I think that's accurate from Mustard/Ketchup's tier list, of course people will always debate it but I think that match up is a good match up. Yeah the hop mechanic has it's uses and gimmicks. All I know is I never use his U2 because it whiffs or does nothing most of the time, people crossing me up I use it and whiffs I just wasted a bar and for nothing so I don't even use it. But the wake ups leave something to be desired in this game in general but that's a whole other topic.

I don't want them to expect it if I need that KB damage though lol. Know what I mean? But if I'm just going for mix ups, then I want to confound them with 50/50's but again this isn't my issue with B2. The move itself is fine, the 50/50(though it is punishable) but it's ok. My issue is the dumb requirement for it's KB....

B2 is in line with a lot if the other requirements for other characters though. At least you dont have to land 10 shadows. I think someone said it earlier you land 1 b2 it's a 99% chance that you can impose your will on someone especially in the corner. You may not get the crushing blow actual but the theoretical mind KB would happen. The longer they wait you outthe better off you would be.

 

[MKF30]

B2 is in line with a lot if the other requirements for other characters though. At least you dont have to land 10 shadows. I think someone said it earlier you land 1 b2 it's a 99% chance that you can impose your will on someone especially in the corner

I'm not saying it's the worst in the game just one of the worst, though I will say at least Noob is more viable on a competitive level than TW Raiden lol. I don't know about 99%, I mean they can roll or U3 Raiden if you just go in there without caution. Know what I mean? If he spaces them out then goes in they have enough time to block the second B2. I would just change it so that it activates the second time you hit your opponent with B2.

 

[ExpectFlames]

I'm not saying it's the worst in the game just one of the worst, though I will say at least Noob is more viable on a competitive level than TW Raiden lol. I don't know about 99%, I mean they can roll or U3 Raiden if you just go in there without caution. Know what I mean? If he spaces them out then goes in they have enough time to block the second B2. I would just change it so that it activates the second time you hit your opponent with B2.

I poke like a bitch all game, after I land b2 I hold down and neutral duck 99% they'll block low. Then 54% lol

 

[BuffRaidenPlz]

What's a good strategy against a Scorpion jumping back and forth out of range throwing random hooks. I've encountered this a few times and normally crush them as they are awful but today for the first time I encountered one doing it in a very annoying way and I only just beat them.

Whenever I try to throw either of his projectiles about half the time I would hit but the other half of the time he would teleport behind me into a meaty combo which isn't a good trade.

Normally what I do is do quick feints from a safe distance: couching, d1, changing stance, shuffle all into block, and this eventually teases a teleport out of them which I punish as I'm expecting it. He wasn't really falling for any of that.

To add to my struggle he kept cancelling his hellport so it was harder to punish him.

And if I just stood still on the spot trading very carefully he would eventually jump over into range and this is my weak point in my game as I suck at landing uppercuts or S4.

Somehow I won which I think came from him not being familiar enough with a raiden MU.

 

[ExpectFlames]

What's a good strategy against a Scorpion jumping back and forth out of range throwing random hooks. I've encountered this a few times and normally crush them as they are awful but today for the first time I encountered one doing it in a very annoying way and I only just beat them.

Whenever I try to throw either of his projectiles about half the time I would hit but the other half of the time he would teleport behind me into a meaty combo which isn't a good trade.

Normally what I do is do quick feints from a safe distance: couching, d1, changing stance, shuffle all into block, and this eventually teases a teleport out of them which I punish as I'm expecting it. He wasn't really falling for any of that.

To add to my struggle he kept cancelling his hellport so it was harder to punish him.

And if I just stood still on the spot trading very carefully he would eventually jump over into range and this is my weak point in my game as I suck at landing uppercuts or S4.

Somehow I won which I think came from him not being familiar enough with a raiden MU.

Play cetrion

 

[MKF30]

I poke like a bitch all game, after I land b2 I hold down and neutral duck 99% they'll block low. Then 54% lol

Yeah I poke too a lot, I just wish they weren't overpowered by throws. Like you ever duck and poke or just duck and get thrown anyway? lol

 

[ExpectFlames]

Yeah I poke too a lot, I just wish they weren't overpowered by throws. Like you ever duck and poke or just duck and get thrown anyway? lol

I've found that if you get poked respond with a throw opposed to a poke of your own. It will change the dynamic if they d3 or 4 you can short hop

 

[ExpectFlames]

Yeah I poke too a lot, I just wish they weren't overpowered by throws. Like you ever duck and poke or just duck and get thrown anyway? lol

Seriously though play cetrion

 

[MKF30]

I've found that if you get poked respond with a throw opposed to a poke of your own. It will change the dynamic if they d3 or 4 you can short hop

I'll have to experiment with that for sure, sounds interesting.

I thought of playing Cetrion early on, everyone who knows my style i love to zone kept telling me play Cetrion she's up your alley lol but I guess I fell in love with Jade but I have noticed not a lot of Cetrion players. Maybe i'll mess around with her a bit, while I wait for Terminator and Fujin.

On the scorpion thing, I have found a trick from a month ago that works on Scorp's first variation especially but works on both. If you expect Scorp to teleport and you're far, jump back with a JIP starter if they teleport it'll stuff him out and put him in a stun state so you can go for a throw or fast string. This has helped me a lot. I do it all the time with Jade and Raiden lol. Of course if you time it right you can just also JK him but that knocks him down and of course on the ground poke or D2 him.

 

[ExpectFlames]

I'll have to experiment with that for sure, sounds interesting.

I thought of playing Cetrion early on, everyone who knows my style i love to zone kept telling me play Cetrion she's up your alley lol but I guess I fell in love with Jade but I have noticed not a lot of Cetrion players. Maybe i'll mess around with her a bit, while I wait for Terminator and Fujin.

On the scorpion thing, I have found a trick from a month ago that works on Scorp's first variation especially but works on both. If you expect Scorp to teleport and you're far, jump back with a JIP starter if they teleport it'll stuff him out and put him in a stun state so you can go for a throw or fast string. This has helped me a lot. I do it all the time with Jade and Raiden lol. Of course if you time it right you can just also JK him but that knocks him down and of course on the ground poke or D2 him.

With cetrion d1 until tele comes out then f234 it travels so far and the 4 low crushes. Shes nasty up close with wall staggers

 

[MKF30]

With cetrion d1 until tele comes out then f234 it travels so far and the 4 low crushes. Shes nasty up close with wall staggers

The one that ends in that rock KB lol. I get hit with that sometimes lol. But yeah her staggers are definitely tough. I've also noticed that ground pound move she has in that one variation that shit hits you even if you jump and land while she's finishing it. That I find to be BS lol because you either block low and take the chip, jump and get lucky or jump and land get hit by it anyway lol

 

[ExpectFlames]

The one that ends in that rock KB lol. I get hit with that sometimes lol. But yeah her staggers are definitely tough. I've also noticed that ground pound move she has in that one variation that shit hits you even if you jump and land while she's finishing it. That I find to be BS lol because you either block low and take the chip, jump and get lucky or jump and land get hit by it anyway lol

Yeah wall is just safe it's not a mix up either you can punish ex wall with the same timing as a poke on reg

 

[Ray'sGoodLiquor]

Wouldn't be handing out safe enders, it's just one move. Considering all the dumb BS Geras, Scorpion and EB had I don't think asking for a move that's slow as hell and very punishable on block to be safe is asking for much. I actually like Kitana and Raiden's tier around the same, I think that's accurate from Mustard/Ketchup's tier list, of course people will always debate it but I think that match up is a good match up. Yeah the hop mechanic has it's uses and gimmicks. All I know is I never use his U2 because it whiffs or does nothing most of the time, people crossing me up I use it and whiffs I just wasted a bar and for nothing so I don't even use it. But the wake ups leave something to be desired in this game in general but that's a whole other topic.

I don't want them to expect it if I need that KB damage though lol. Know what I mean? But if I'm just going for mix ups, then I want to confound them with 50/50's but again this isn't my issue with B2. The move itself is fine, the 50/50(though it is punishable) but it's ok. My issue is the dumb requirement for it's KB....

Max range electric fly KB is easier and just as safe to get out. I’ll generally only B2 after a F3 lands to cover my startup frames, but 80% of the time I’m just going to eat a full combo. B2 landing twice is pretty unlikely, as it is reactable and even the most casual players know his KB requirements. Where most of the kast has their KBs always active as a threat, Raiden is forced the use his kB setup as a mind game instead of using the actual KB for damage. The only other KBs I can think of that create the mind game are incorrect throw reversals, but even then, it’s likely you’ll get the throw KB in a match. Even attempting to set up the B2 kB means that a lot of the time, you’re setting up a mind game at the cost of 40% of your life and trading positions in the corner. That’s basically death. For the move to be reactable, slow on start up, and full combo punishable, you’d expect it to launch but it doesn’t. Maybe move the KB to another one of his moves and just let B2 launch. Treat it like Shao Khan’s B3. That means the giant risk you take is rewarded by a combo and not just a weak oki setup that can be blown up a number of ways.

 

[MKF30]

Max range electric fly KB is easier and just as safe to get out. I’ll generally only B2 after a F3 lands to cover my startup frames, but 80% of the time I’m just going to eat a full combo. B2 landing twice is pretty unlikely, as it is reactable and even the most casual players know his KB requirements. Where most of the kast has their KBs always active as a threat, Raiden is forced the use his kB setup as a mind game instead of using the actual KB for damage. The only other KBs I can think of that create the mind game are incorrect throw reversals, but even then, it’s likely you’ll get the throw KB in a match. Even attempting to set up the B2 kB means that a lot of the time, you’re setting up a mind game at the cost of 40% of your life and trading positions in the corner. That’s basically death.

For the move to be reactable, slow on start up, and full combo punishable, you’d expect it to launch but it doesn’t. Maybe move the KB to another one of his moves and just let B2 launch. Treat it like Shao Khan’s B3. That means the giant risk you take is rewarded by a combo and not just a weak oki setup that can be blown up a number of ways.

Yeah exactly which is why the b2 kb is lame. Lol its risky for raiden given the requirement. The full screen superman amp is probably easier but not by much though I have gotten it way more than the b2 in a close match only because I take them out of the air you know?

Would be interesting if they made his db2 3rd time connecting a KB that does more damage and juggles you without amplifying it.

Yeah wall is just safe it's not a mix up either you can punish ex wall with the same timing as a poke on reg

Oh that's good to know. Never knew that. Never touched her.

 

[Black Chapters]

Electric Fly should be activated on a 5 hit or more combo or if its out of the air, and B2 should be a staff move.

Superbolts KB is actual dogshit, and Raiden not having a single Lightning Based KB is hilariously bad.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Would be interesting if they made his db2 3rd time connecting a KB that does more damage and juggles you without amplifying it.

No. It would be OP.

 

[MKF30]

No. It would be OP.

No it wouldn't be OP,it would actually be a useful KB since his others suck.

 

[Mandolore1123]

No it wouldn't be OP,it would actually be useful or if they had it activate during a multi hit combo. The way it is now is stupid and useless.

If you’re referring to storm cell. It is useful as a combo extender and nothing more. Or as a way to catch people pressing after your poke. How is it useless. Stop making unreasonable requests to make his best move the only move that matters in his arsenal.
If you are referring to summon lightning. It’s an anti air and damage ender. What part of it is not useful?

 

[Trustful_Whale]

Storm
Cell
does
not
need
buffs

 

[MKF30]

Going to say this once and only once for a certain someone, If you want Raiden to be better, he needs buffs. Period. Not saying to be broken, but needs buffs. Or have fun with your low tier Thunder God. That is all.

Electric Fly should be activated on a 5 hit or more combo or if its out of the air, and B2 should be a staff move.

Superbolts KB is actual dogshit, and Raiden not having a single Lightning Based KB is hilariously bad.

Glad someone actually has logic here ^. Couldn't agree more.

If you’re referring to storm cell. It is useful as a combo extender and nothing more. Or as a way to catch people pressing after your poke. How is it useless. Stop making unreasonable requests to make his best move the only move that matters in his arsenal.
If you are referring to summon lightning. It’s an anti air and damage ender. What part of it is not useful?

Yes, I agree with it being useful combo extender, but just saying. I wasn't talking about that or you're misunderstanding me, I never said it was useless. I said his Superman KB and B2 are useless(and please note I'm talking about the KB not the mix ups since some of you seem to not get this) It's not unreasonable to make Raiden better, unless you enjoy struggling against a ton of characters in this game with Raiden's current lower tier status then be my guest. But don't tell me "this isn't good, that's not good" when you're not contributing to how to make him better, all you're doing is trying to lowball my ideas. I'm sure most Raiden players would agree. I'm not talking about Summon Lightning, I'm talking about Storm Cell. I'm talking about his TW, I don't use his Raijin variation. They buffed that, now they need to buff TW I mean really, his lightning strike "buff" is a joke.