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Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

thecrux

thecrux

Y MELO
I don’t understand why Raiden’s u2 is a high. It cripples him when in comes to punishing Flawless block pokes. When you flawless block a poke the u2 whiffs and you get d3 KB’d or whiff punished .
Kitana and some other characters U2’s suffer in a similar way because although they are mids, they act like a highs. I do think that there should be a universal system when it comes to u2 FB reversals because as the game matures this mechanic will be critical.
 
MKF30

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Black Chapters said:
which is fucking stupid

NRS has serious animation issues
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Exactly, move has armor or supposed to yet is duckable....NRS was like "how can we fuck Raiden in this game" in more than one way deep down. I think they were scared he'd be good like the past two MK's, MK X he was really good. MK 9 he wasn't top but he was good enough to beat anyone if used well. This game he can't do shit against certain match ups.
 
Mandolore1123

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
MKF30 said:
Exactly, move has armor or supposed to yet is duckable....NRS was like "how can we fuck Raiden in this game" in more than one way deep down. I think they were scared he'd be good like the past two MK's, MK X he was really good. MK 9 he wasn't top but he was good enough to beat anyone if used well. This game he can't do shit against certain match ups.
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He’s not a good character, but he’s not bad. At the moment there aren’t any MUs that he gets completely shut down. If he’s struggling against zoning then use TW for mobility and consistent damage, if you want more safety in general then use Raijin.
 
MKF30

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Trustful_Whale said:
Like what?
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You mean who? I can think of a few characters that Raiden does not match up well against.

Mandolore1123 said:
He’s not a good character, but he’s not bad. At the moment there aren’t any MUs that he gets completely shut down. If he’s struggling against zoning then use TW for mobility and consistent damage, if you want more safety in general then use Raijin.
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He's not bad, but he's not that good either. He's lower overall in this game but CAN win with a lot of effort.

Yeah I mean he can win a lot of match ups but it's a struggle especially depending on the match up, though I would say Geras is actually one that shuts him down. Up close Geras has the edge, far if Raiden trades lightning strikes, the recovery sucks so much Geras can actually block and or trade with a pit, which is dumb. I use TW so I know about the zoning aspect, he can zone too a little bit but some match ups he can't like Scorpion is another due to the teleport. If Scorp reads right he punishes Raiden everytime. Rajin is more in your face, but will lose to zoning unlike TW. It's just a shame TW got no good buffs at all. Hopefully this will change in the future. His best tool in TW is his teleport.
 
Mandolore1123

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
MKF30 said:
He's not bad, but he's not that good either. He's lower overall in this game but CAN win with a lot of effort.

Yeah I mean he can win a lot of match ups but it's a struggle especially depending on the match up, though I would say Geras is actually one that shuts him down. Up close Geras has the edge, far if Raiden trades lightning strikes, the recovery sucks so much Geras can actually block and or trade with a pit, which is dumb. I use TW so I know about the zoning aspect, he can zone too a little bit but some match ups he can't like Scorpion is another due to the teleport. If Scorp reads right he punishes Raiden everytime. Rajin is more in your face, but will lose to zoning unlike TW. It's just a shame TW got no good buffs at all. Hopefully this will change in the future. His best tool in TW is his teleport.
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Geras doesn’t just trade with lightning strike. He reversal punishes. But if you recall the match with Hero Killer Stain and tweedy at combo breaker. He was able to simply out zone infinity warden by setting up buff and doing DB4 and chipping him out. Up close is not in Raiden’s favour but Raijin’s DF2 offers a chance to return to footsie range after every block string where Raiden thrives. A hard MU but he doesn’t lose all his options.

Every character will punish every character if they read right. Raiden can do the exact same to most projectiles with his own teleport. Scorpion is hard but again he doesn’t get shut down. You just have to work a lot harder (a lot lot more harder).

Not many characters get shut down like in previous games. You dont have characters like Quan Chi or Black Adam where on knockdown they just die because of lack of wake up options. The universal wake up system alone offers a more balanced experience in this game. After hitting an U3 you get a strike/dash up throw mixup, after most U2 you get a short combo. All options can have counter play.
 
MKF30

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Mandolore1123 said:
Geras doesn’t just trade with lightning strike. He reversal punishes. But if you recall the match with Hero Killer Stain and tweedy at combo breaker. He was able to simply out zone infinity warden by setting up buff and doing DB4 and chipping him out. Up close is not in Raiden’s favour but Raijin’s DF2 offers a chance to return to footsie range after every block string where Raiden thrives. A hard MU but he doesn’t lose all his options.

Every character will punish every character if they read right. Raiden can do the exact same to most projectiles with his own teleport. Scorpion is hard but again he doesn’t get shut down. You just have to work a lot harder (a lot lot more harder).

Not many characters get shut down like in previous games. You dont have characters like Quan Chi or Black Adam where on knockdown they just die because of lack of wake up options. The universal wake up system alone offers a more balanced experience in this game. After hitting an U3 you get a strike/dash up throw mixup, after most U2 you get a short combo. All options can have counter play.
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He trades if you do it literally at the precise same time, but it rarely happens. It was weird, I hit him and while he was hit I went down anyway lol. But yeah he has priority and he can reverse punish even on block. Yeah, but I'm talking about TW not Rajin. TW he has no buffs or buff moves unfortunately so have to zone him out the oldfasionhed way. I don't use Rajin as it doesn't fit my style, I'm glad for Rajin players though. After the patch I saw like 4 Raidens use it then that was it. Now I get a Raiden once in a blue moon literally. I mean at the end of the day almost any character can beat any character. I've beaten annoying Scorps with Raiden which isn't easy including prepatch Scorp thankfully his teleport is the one tool that can match Scorps. But Yeah that match up def doesn't go in Raiden's favor against Geras. If you're talking MK X QC I agree, but MK 9 had much better wake ups than this game, not even comparable. They had armor and you had to respect them. QC thrived in MK 9 on the reset/restands which kept you on your feet. Though I'm not sure I'd say completely shut down in past MK's. In MK 9 I used to take out KL and Kabal all the time using mids like Ermac and Sektor. Though someone like Stryker would have no chance.

However, while mk11 may be balanced better there's still a tier list at the end of the day, and I would still wager the lower characters like Raiden, Kotal etc would lose to tops and S more times than not in this game. I disagree though about U3, U3 in Raiden's case is bad it whiffs certain moves like Erron Black's advances B222 among other examples that Braindead has posted. It's not that good, it's good if someone is constantly crowding you but other than that can be baited like most in this game in the corner and punished bad. His U2 sucks flat out, this move has literally whiffed for me while they're jumping which is stupid and defies the point of the move. His U3 can be baited and punished if you're not careful, I've found in this game delayed wake up is the best option because the wake ups in general suck compared to MK 9's wake ups. I prefer quality over quantity, if most of the options fail then you really don't have many counters to play. This game is easy to corner trap compared to previous MK's. Even MK X with it's pro rushdown 50/50 game, you could use armor to wall jump those situations. You can't even do that since they removed armor a lot in this game. The wake ups in this game are not good. Rolls get easily punished at the end of their frames or thrown if read, U3's only good if you're getting crowded by someone who doesn't know what baiting and blocking are. U2 sucks for a lot of characters and whiffs. That leaves you with delay which is good to throw people off their patterns I admit, but if you're in the corner you're still in the corner. I find wake up NJ's work best for me more than anything as well as delayed wake up in this game.

But back on Raiden, hopefully TW Raiden gets buffed in the future so that he's more viable.
 
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Mel0

Mel0

Noob
MKF30 said:
He trades if you do it literally at the precise same time, but it rarely happens. It was weird, I hit him and while he was hit I went down anyway lol. But yeah he has priority and he can reverse punish even on block. Yeah, but I'm talking about TW not Rajin. TW he has no buffs or buff moves unfortunately so have to zone him out the oldfasionhed way. I don't use Rajin as it doesn't fit my style, I'm glad for Rajin players though. After the patch I saw like 4 Raidens use it then that was it. Now I get a Raiden once in a blue moon literally. I mean at the end of the day almost any character can beat any character. I've beaten annoying Scorps with Raiden which isn't easy including prepatch Scorp thankfully his teleport is the one tool that can match Scorps. But Yeah that match up def doesn't go in Raiden's favor against Geras. If you're talking MK X QC I agree, but MK 9 had much better wake ups than this game, not even comparable. They had armor and you had to respect them. QC thrived in MK 9 on the reset/restands which kept you on your feet. Though I'm not sure I'd say completely shut down in past MK's. In MK 9 I used to take out KL and Kabal all the time using mids like Ermac and Sektor. Though someone like Stryker would have no chance.

However, while mk11 may be balanced better there's still a tier list at the end of the day, and I would still wager the lower characters like Raiden, Kotal etc would lose to tops and S more times than not in this game. I disagree though about U3, U3 in Raiden's case is bad it whiffs certain moves like Erron Black's advances B222 among other examples that Braindead has posted. It's not that good, it's good if someone is constantly crowding you but other than that can be baited like most in this game in the corner and punished bad. His U2 sucks flat out, this move has literally whiffed for me while they're jumping which is stupid and defies the point of the move. His U3 can be baited and punished if you're not careful, I've found in this game delayed wake up is the best option because the wake ups in general suck compared to MK 9's wake ups. I prefer quality over quantity, if most of the options fail then you really don't have many counters to play. This game is easy to corner trap compared to previous MK's. Even MK X with it's pro rushdown 50/50 game, you could use armor to wall jump those situations. You can't even do that since they removed armor a lot in this game. The wake ups in this game are not good. Rolls get easily punished at the end of their frames or thrown if read, U3's only good if you're getting crowded by someone who doesn't know what baiting and blocking are. U2 sucks for a lot of characters and whiffs. That leaves you with delay which is good to throw people off their patterns I admit, but if you're in the corner you're still in the corner. I find wake up NJ's work best for me more than anything as well as delayed wake up in this game.

But back on Raiden, hopefully TW Raiden gets buffed in the future so that he's more viable.
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I'm curious, what would you change about TW?
 
MKF30

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Mel0 said:
I'm curious, what would you change about TW?
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Quite a few things. To be blunt though, I'd make his DB2 safe on block and added pushback, his F121 would either be safe on block or faster. Doesn't have to be both but I prefer it be actually useful. I'd change his two KB requirements, as I've pointed out many times 2 of his 5 are garbage and will never happen in a serious match his B2(which people always see coming after you connect once) and his Superman amplified which you have to be full screen to do it. Dumbest requirement ever. That limits his KB's to 121 on punish, D2(that everyone has) and his throwing KB. I would also make his lightning strike recovery safer/faster recovery, their so called "buff" is a joke and isn't much of a change when amped. This move should be more useful. I mean if I created this move I'd change the amped version to a stun free hit scenario(like think Sub's freeze if you can get closer) and would track as well as be safe on block.

I would also give him a faster 50/50 string, his mix ups are sadly a joke. People almost always block them. I would give him a good speed string that's high, low, high, overhead or low, overhead, high etc, etc
 
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MKF30

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Trustful_Whale said:
and they are...?
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Geras is one for reasons already explained, keep in mind I'm speaking specifically about TW since that's clearly his weaker variation now. LK(though who doesn't struggle against LK) Scorpion, sure his teleport is nerfed but everything else is still good about him. Jacqui, Kabal are also annoying for Raiden. He struggles for faster characters up close. But majority of the roster should win or have the edge vs Raiden, most tier charts have him at lower understandably. That's not to say he can't win, but it definitely doesn't go in his favor all I'm saying.
 
Trustful_Whale

Trustful_Whale

Warrior
MKF30 said:
Quite a few things. To be blunt though, I'd make his DB2 safe on block and added pushback, his F121 would either be safe on block or faster. Doesn't have to be both but I prefer it be actually useful. I'd change his two KB requirements, as I've pointed out many times 2 of his 5 are garbage and will never happen in a serious match his B2(which people always see coming after you connect once) and his Superman amplified which you have to be full screen to do it. Dumbest requirement ever. That limits his KB's to 121 on punish, D2(that everyone has) and his throwing KB. I would also make his lightning strike recovery safer/faster recovery, their so called "buff" is a joke and isn't much of a change when amped. This move should be more useful. I mean if I created this move I'd change the amped version to a stun free hit scenario(like think Sub's freeze if you can get closer) and would track as well as be safe on block.

I would also give him a faster 50/50 string, his mix ups are sadly a joke. People almost always block them. I would give him a good speed string that's high, low, high, overhead or low, overhead, high etc, etc
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Storm Cell is not going to be made safe, and it shouldn't. If you want to just unga against people with safe specials, pick Raijin and use the df2 buff.
The only thing the f112 string needs is for f1 to hit more consistently on people in general.

B2, as has been explained many times, is about the threat of the KB after getting hit by the first one. Calling this KB useless is simply not true. Even if I never get the 2nd B2 against you that still means I can go for b3 or throw or f3, or whatever because you're looking for that B2. Add a loaded f throw KB into this mix and that sounds like a stressful time for the opponent.

A stun on lightning strike is way overboard. What this move needs is to simply be reverted back to what it was before the game released. I've talked about this before in other threads but it can be viewed watching the Rewind vs Sonicfox exhibition match at the MK11 reveal event where lightning strike was an actual effective zoning tool.

Raiden needs some tweaks but this isn't it.
 
MKF30

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Trustful_Whale said:
Storm Cell is not going to be made safe, and it shouldn't. If you want to just unga against people with safe specials, pick Raijin and use the df2 buff.
The only thing the f112 string needs is for f1 to hit more consistently on people in general.

B2, as has been explained many times, is about the threat of the KB after getting hit by the first one. Calling this KB useless is simply not true. Even if I never get the 2nd B2 against you that still means I can go for b3 or throw or f3, or whatever because you're looking for that B2. Add a loaded f throw KB into this mix and that sounds like a stressful time for the opponent.

A stun on lightning strike is way overboard. What this move needs is to simply be reverted back to what it was before the game released. I've talked about this before in other threads but it can be viewed watching the Rewind vs Sonicfox exhibition match at the MK11 reveal event where lightning strike was an actual effective zoning tool.

Raiden needs some tweaks but this isn't it.
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Disagree he does need those buffs to be made viable, you dont see him in any tourneys for a reason and if you do he gets knocked out fast. Yes its should be made safe because I shouldn't have to be forced to use raisin variation just to be competitive with raiden. His teleport is missing g it's not raiden, that's like taking away subs ice ball you just dont do it but nrs do t care if raiden sucks.

It would make him better in TW for sure.

Again I never said useless I said his KB b2 is useless, it's good for mix ups but again in terms of KB it is useless if you're banking on that. Dont believe me find me a video of any raiden using b2 KB vs a solid player. Same goes for his superman.

It needs to be made I to a useful tool, period. Stunning on amp is fine you're using a bar so if its blocked he just used one bar of meter.
 
Trustful_Whale

Trustful_Whale

Warrior
Turning storm cell into a braindead unga move isn't the answer to Raiden's problems, especially not in a game with variations. We aren't seeing a lack of Raiden in tournaments because Storm Cell is unsafe. I agree that Raiden needs something, but your suggestions are too overboard and also does not take variations into account.
I've said this before the Raijin buffs, but making SC safe would only result in us being married to Thunder Wave more than we already were since SC was at the time regarded as his best move already.

Refusing to swap to anything that doesn't have teleport is a you problem, even though I agree Raiden isn't himself without it. Having safe unga pressure isn't the only way to become viable either, but rejecting the variation system out of hand despite it having solutions for matchup issues is a choice.
Obviously your suggestions would make TW better, but that's also the problem since it would make TW the only choice ever.

I don't have to provide you video of B2 KB landing against good opponents. I've fought good opponents, I've hit people with the KB and I've even been hit with it myself. Keep in mind that B2 is 19 frames, which is the same speed as the dreaded and unstoppable Sub-Zero f2. Instead, I might suggest making b3 a frame or two faster to bring it more in line with Sub's b3, or give b2 more range as it's a little stubby.

MKF30 said:
Again I never said useless I said his KB b2 is useless, it's good for mix ups but again in terms of KB it is useless if you're banking on that.
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If it's good for mix ups, how is it useless for the KB? Make up your mind dude.

We should be going about these things differently and not just slapping a huge change in like it'll fix everything. A simple improvement to both TW and b2KB would be allowing whiffs and teleports to not break the KB setup; this way we have even more opportunities to mix using b2 and teleport, etc.

I've already said, many times, how to make lightning strike useful again. It does not need a capture state on it. I don't think you're fully appreciating what you're asking for here.
 
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