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Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

I highly disagree with this. F1 has huge range, works well as an Anti Air
Tell that to everyone who decides to jump when I decide to f1 and slip over it completely.
Or the slew of animations that cause the other character to arch their back even slightly, ducking the f1. You really start to notice just how many moves end with a semi-crouch animation when trying to punish with fast highs.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Nice vid in the corner there however the flawless block cant be assumed, I just think it's too inconsistent a mechanic but I like to keep them there if I can mix up b2 with 3 and punish up 3 with f4 into db2
 

Gooberking

FGC Cannon Fodder
Found this on YouTube, seems legit. Haven’t tested it yet though, but it’s good to know and allows for more paths to end combos.
Yesterday I saw you posted this. I'm pretty sure it's partly why I didn't get another rematch earlier. I'm pretty sure my interpretation is basic, but being able to have constant timing that blows up several wake up attempts, or end with a b2 ender to threaten the b2 KB is nice corner stuff.
 
So in my opinion, Raiden seems very readable. His f112 is too easy to whiff the first hit considering it’s a staff poke and very punishable. If it were a mid on the first hit, maybe it would be better for poking advancing players. Using it for anti air seems silly when you can footsie to make the opponent whiff a jump kick/punch.

His b31,2+4 is a advancing low start that has a slow startup (16). It may not seem slow, but his animation compared to other fighters is a easy read. This compared to scorpions advancing f423 (17) which is harder to read because it looks like he’s taking a step.(low to overhead is pretty dumb too) Raiden looks like he’s about to take a s**t before his low b3 comes out, very readable. Maybe change the startup to (12)?

His b12,1+3 is his fastest startup kombo and I don’t have issues with this because it’s viable. I never do the full kombo unless I’m trying to push for the korner.

His 121 kombo starts high and is a kB on punish, my issues is that he does not have much reach and can easily whiff the first hit being a high. I think it should be mid,high,mid.

His b2 chops, is extremely satisfying to land, but is also a little slow on startup, and even worse for recovery. Pushback might as well be non existent if the recovery is huge. the krushing blow should be on the second chop anytime like subzeros amped slide.

f2 and f4 is an example this game was rushed and they just said F*** it give him the exact same move with a knee. the knee seems better for hitting falling opponents but the recovery sucks. they should scrap f2 and give him something better while giving better recovery to f4.

f32 is quick but the headbutt should be an overhead

b14 should be faster on the second hit

thunderweave should hit low,med,high or med,low,high. its easily duck blocked or barely hits females.

electric fly kb is absurd. should be the 3rdamped or on punish. and where is the gibberish during the fly? fail...big fail. same with electrocute being scrapped like wtf?

teleport is nothing but a reposition tool, which is kinida bs considering how the game autocorrects the way the opponent is facing. too many times ive done this while they start a special just to be stuffed. amped teleport should be an opportunity to combo after...the recovery sucks. the autotrack for opponents suck. teleport should only be 1 slot or even a staple move....

lightning bolt is too slow...again he does the power ranger arm flail giving away his projectile

lightning strike should track to the opponent, the hitbox is too small. same for scarlet her tentacle should autotrack and I dont even play her that much. shang tsungs rising fire is a different story because it hits multiple places.

raijun or whatever is full of so many awkward hitboxes. the corner amp is 100% miss. the low staff special is so slow forest gump could block it ez pz.

i think Raiden wasnt given much attention other than being bad in the story. most of his specials speak volumes on this

edit: hes viable against beginners but compared to other characters that have better animations, hes kinda awkward
 

Gooberking

FGC Cannon Fodder
So in my opinion, Raiden seems very readable. His f112 is too easy to whiff the first hit considering it’s a staff poke and very punishable. If it were a mid on the first hit, maybe it would be better for poking advancing players. Using it for anti air seems silly when you can footsie to make the opponent whiff a jump kick/punch.

His b31,2+4 is a advancing low start that has a slow startup (16). It may not seem slow, but his animation compared to other fighters is a easy read. This compared to scorpions advancing f423 (17) which is harder to read because it looks like he’s taking a step.(low to overhead is pretty dumb too) Raiden looks like he’s about to take a s**t before his low b3 comes out, very readable. Maybe change the startup to (12)?

His b12,1+3 is his fastest startup kombo and I don’t have issues with this because it’s viable. I never do the full kombo unless I’m trying to push for the korner.

His 121 kombo starts high and is a kB on punish, my issues is that he does not have much reach and can easily whiff the first hit being a high. I think it should be mid,high,mid.

His b2 chops, is extremely satisfying to land, but is also a little slow on startup, and even worse for recovery. Pushback might as well be non existent if the recovery is huge. the krushing blow should be on the second chop anytime like subzeros amped slide.

f2 and f4 is an example this game was rushed and they just said F*** it give him the exact same move with a knee. the knee seems better for hitting falling opponents but the recovery sucks. they should scrap f2 and give him something better while giving better recovery to f4.

f32 is quick but the headbutt should be an overhead

b14 should be faster on the second hit

thunderweave should hit low,med,high or med,low,high. its easily duck blocked or barely hits females.

electric fly kb is absurd. should be the 3rdamped or on punish. and where is the gibberish during the fly? fail...big fail. same with electrocute being scrapped like wtf?

teleport is nothing but a reposition tool, which is kinida bs considering how the game autocorrects the way the opponent is facing. too many times ive done this while they start a special just to be stuffed. amped teleport should be an opportunity to combo after...the recovery sucks. the autotrack for opponents suck. teleport should only be 1 slot or even a staple move....

lightning bolt is too slow...again he does the power ranger arm flail giving away his projectile

lightning strike should track to the opponent, the hitbox is too small. same for scarlet her tentacle should autotrack and I dont even play her that much. shang tsungs rising fire is a different story because it hits multiple places.

raijun or whatever is full of so many awkward hitboxes. the corner amp is 100% miss. the low staff special is so slow forest gump could block it ez pz.

i think Raiden wasnt given much attention other than being bad in the story. most of his specials speak volumes on this

edit: hes viable against beginners but compared to other characters that have better animations, hes kinda awkward
You are asking for stuff no character has. 1 as a starter, is basically high across the character board. They are supposed to be fast punishers while risking getting low profiled. It is a perfectly viable punish move. Its angle isn't the best, but if the opponent is deep at all, it's an easy KB to get with 121. Youngsters shouldn't have any trouble hit confirming 12 into full combo as well. It's doing its job, and is more or less in line with other characters.

B3 is fine. It has decent advancement, starts low, safe on block, and leads to full hit confirmable combos. Nobody is going to react and blow up 16f because they see it happening. They might FB the gap (which I think would be well deserved if they did). But giving him a 12f, low, advancing starter that leads to full combos and is safe on block is asking for a lot. It basically means you get a full low starting combo attempt every time you land a d1. b31 2+4 doesn't seem to come out on block, and is super easily confirmed into full combos. Someone feel free to enlighten me, but IDK why it even exists.

F32 should not end in an overhead. I don't really have a good reason as to why, so maybe I'm wrong. It's fairly useful the way that it is, and it just seems like asking for candy just because it sounds good. I don't think it changes much, so maybe in a why not sort of way.

The b2 game seems fine. I honestly prefer to be able to not do it on a strict count and have a mix mini game to play instead. It gives me reasons to set up chops, and end corner combos in chop so I can run the mini game. Granted, I don't think people really know about that mini game until you probably are playing really good people. That is much better people than me. I don't know that I've sensed anyone knowing what I was trying to do, but I still get overhead chop KB's often enough, and that leads to more combo potential (like half your life combos). It's not like SZ slide that just cashes out and that's your damage.

The real issue with b2 is that it's mapped to b2 and there is no buffer on normals. I've done lost count of how many times I've tried to do b12 and had the 1 eaten because I was on the wrong side of block stun. B2 is so negative and stubby that just tossing them out in thin air is Trouble Town, and getting it all the time because you are a frame off sucks.

I think Lighting strike is about what they wanted. It's hard to just toss out there, but I don't think that was ever the idea. It catches jumpers, and does decent chip. There are basically guaranteed chances to use it, like after push and MB bf1. I'm not saying it's a great tool or anything, but it can be useful as long as you don't need it to be Sonya's rings.
 
I think Lighting strike is about what they wanted. It's hard to just toss out there, but I don't think that was ever the idea. It catches jumpers, and does decent chip. There are basically guaranteed chances to use it, like after push and MB bf1. I'm not saying it's a great tool or anything, but it can be useful as long as you don't need it to be Sonya's rings.
-29 tho
 
You are asking for stuff no character has. 1 as a starter, is basically high across the character board. They are supposed to be fast punishers while risking getting low profiled. It is a perfectly viable punish move. Its angle isn't the best, but if the opponent is deep at all, it's an easy KB to get with 121. Youngsters shouldn't have any trouble hit confirming 12 into full combo as well. It's doing its job, and is more or less in line with other characters.

B3 is fine. It has decent advancement, starts low, safe on block, and leads to full hit confirmable combos. Nobody is going to react and blow up 16f because they see it happening. They might FB the gap (which I think would be well deserved if they did). But giving him a 12f, low, advancing starter that leads to full combos and is safe on block is asking for a lot. It basically means you get a full low starting combo attempt every time you land a d1. b31 2+4 doesn't seem to come out on block, and is super easily confirmed into full combos. Someone feel free to enlighten me, but IDK why it even exists.

F32 should not end in an overhead. I don't really have a good reason as to why, so maybe I'm wrong. It's fairly useful the way that it is, and it just seems like asking for candy just because it sounds good. I don't think it changes much, so maybe in a why not sort of way.

The b2 game seems fine. I honestly prefer to be able to not do it on a strict count and have a mix mini game to play instead. It gives me reasons to set up chops, and end corner combos in chop so I can run the mini game. Granted, I don't think people really know about that mini game until you probably are playing really good people. That is much better people than me. I don't know that I've sensed anyone knowing what I was trying to do, but I still get overhead chop KB's often enough, and that leads to more combo potential (like half your life combos). It's not like SZ slide that just cashes out and that's your damage.

The real issue with b2 is that it's mapped to b2 and there is no buffer on normals. I've done lost count of how many times I've tried to do b12 and had the 1 eaten because I was on the wrong side of block stun. B2 is so negative and stubby that just tossing them out in thin air is Trouble Town, and getting it all the time because you are a frame off sucks.

I think Lighting strike is about what they wanted. It's hard to just toss out there, but I don't think that was ever the idea. It catches jumpers, and does decent chip. There are basically guaranteed chances to use it, like after push and MB bf1. I'm not saying it's a great tool or anything, but it can be useful as long as you don't need it to be Sonya's rings.
man if you got videos beating top tier players that are high level I would love to see them. im not being sarcastic but man...id love to see them :)

ya the lightning strike is just an idea, but its so punishable its not even worth it to me. id rather use the air grab but its locked to raijun or whatever
 

Gooberking

FGC Cannon Fodder
man if you got videos beating top tier players that are high level I would love to see them. im not being sarcastic but man...id love to see them :)

ya the lightning strike is just an idea, but its so punishable its not even worth it to me. id rather use the air grab but its locked to raijun or whatever
Man, Nobody wants to see my lame ass play.

Wasn't saying he is perfect or top tier. More that it was reading like a way to break him to me and less of a way to balance him.
 

DDutchguy

Stand 4'ing airplanes out of the sky
• Raiden - Discharge startup is now 6 frames (from 4), has 1 more active frame, hit reaction has been adjusted so hit advantage is the same if done on grounded or airborne opponents

glad i quit the game...
I mean he got safety back for it (DF2 actually has a purpose now) and he can now combo. Sounds like decent compensation on paper.
 

DDutchguy

Stand 4'ing airplanes out of the sky
There are a couple things I’d like to say about the patch notes. Note that I have not labbed all this myself yet so this is just a post abiut the changes in theory:

  • Thunder Wave got 2 changes: First, teleport now has 21 frames of recovery from 19. We’ll have to be more careful about using teleport now.
  • Second, Lightning Strike amplified now tracks the opponent. This could be very interesting if this means Lightning Strike amp now comes out on block, as it did not pre-patch. Could make Thunder Wave’s zoning threat a lot stronger and makes normal Lightning Strike better due to the threat of an amplify. If someone is able, please lab this and get back to me (close to midnight on my end so I’m off soon).
  • Raijin got hella changes. There is of course the major nerf of Discharge now being 6 frames rather than 4. So on reversal, we now no longer have a 3-frame reversal but a 5-frame one. This means we can no longer punish moves that are -4 or -5 with it. Pretty substantial change, as Raijin can now no longer punish a crazy amount of moves.
  • But we got other stuff too boyz, Electric Burst has a use! If Quick Charge is on, it gets a LOT of pushback. This makes Raijin a lot safer now. HOWEVER, someone please check if this makes B12~Electric Burst completely safe. Electric Burst also has 2 more frames of startup, so maybe B12~Electric Burst can be poked out of or flawless blocked.
  • We have Raijin midscreen combos! No doubt less than Thunder Wave, but low staff’s amplify now combos if Quick Charge is on. Neato.
  • Discharge amped had its hit regions adjusted. Wonder if this means it is now fully safe on block and can no longer be punished if you crouch block in a certain way (was posible pre-patch).
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
Raijin got hella changes. There is of course the major nerf of Discharge now being 6 frames rather than 4. So on reversal, we now no longer have a 3-frame reversal but a 5-frame one. This means we can no longer punish moves that are -4 or -5 with it. Pretty substantial change, as Raijin can now no longer punish a crazy amount of moves.
I'm actually pretty bummed about this, him being able to punish -4 or -5 frame moves was pretty cool. Honestly I'd probably be happier if they kept it at 4 and Electric current didn't launch.
 

DDutchguy

Stand 4'ing airplanes out of the sky
I'm actually pretty bummed about this, him being able to punish -4 or -5 frame moves was pretty cool. Honestly I'd probably be happier if they kept it at 4 and Electric current didn't launch.
It is what it is. 4 frames was kiiinda too fast as it seemed to shut down the opponent's to a large extent. You could punish a bunch of pokes for instance. I think Raijin was crazy unfun to play against lol

These buffs seem like decent compensation however and a 5-frame reversal is still nothing to scoff at. Stuff like Jax's F21+3 can still be punished so it's something.
 

DC King

Noob
• Raiden - Discharge startup is now 6 frames (from 4), has 1 more active frame, hit reaction has been adjusted so hit advantage is the same if done on grounded or airborne opponents

glad i quit the game...
6f is still fast and it also buffs his other 2 moves in this variation. Discharge makes df2 safe and makes db4 a launcher so we can now get combos from mid screen instead of having to get them in the corner just to get some dmg.
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
I think only far teleport has had its recovery increased. Like all the far teleports in the game it seems.
They didn’t fix his frames though, so his up-close game still suffers. Fly cancels are still negative as hell, F3 pressure is still fake, lightning strike is still death on block or whiff and BF1 is still very slow :(
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
I’d be more inclined to use Raijin now in certain MUs now though. Maybe against Liu Kang or D’vorah?
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Ehh I think his variations are very different and both have merit. That teleport is really good.

But hey look, now Raiden has a meterlessly safe B12 in Raijen as long as Quick Charge is up. And he's got dammy
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Interesting how they buffed his Raijin variation but hardly touched his Thunder Wave(that most Raiden players use up until now more will use Raijin probably) I'm happy for those who use Rajin, but hopefully in the future they'll touch up his TW variation as well. At least we got tracking lightning strike when amped. lol They actually slowed down his recovery on far teleport...why IDK lol. But whatever. I'll still use him, here's hoping his brother will be better.