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Liu Kang's +3 on block from Jails, hes not the only one!

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
I'm hearing a lot of complaints about how broke his D1 jailed into 12 is and people complaining that its +3 on block.
Its not that insane and I'll try to illustrate that here.
He has several options after 12 is jailed and can jail into his F4 to stop opponents from ducking or interrupting. But this requires him to do the F4 in one frame otherwise 7f starters/pokes can interrupt him. As it stands even if he does it perfectly 6f pokes can interrupt his F4 after 12 on block so Subs D1, Errons D1 and Geras's D1.
But if he does it late by 1 or two frames 7 frane s can punish. This applies to B1 as well.
So he has other options: 12 and D1 are 7f
12 is a high high so it can be poked, ducked and D2 punished.
D1 gives up his turn and allows some characters to Neutral jump punish follow up or walk back into wiff punish.
But D1 and 12 after 12 has a 3f window and is fairly easy to do if practiced.

As for him having the +3 on block from a jailing poke, several characters have this and can use it in the same ways, in fact some characters have better tools like tick throws, better staggers off it, or even true 50/50's.

Let's not forget everyone has a universal option to shut down plus frames into pokes and normals (Reversal Throw Counter) which comes out off buffer and overrides nearly everything and can't be teched if its a punish or if they are pressing predictable buttons it is a 50/50 and stops Liu's pressure. So if liu does 12 you can just buffer a reversal throw and it will beat his D1 and F4/12 follow-ups in some cases, this is especially true vs Kabals plus on block Nomad Dash Cancels. Every character has this. It means if you use reversal throw after he jails into plus frames he can't mindlessly press buttons he will have to short hop or neutral jump to avoid the throw instead of pressing D1. For other buttons like F4 and 12 it can be hard to do since you have to buffer quickly. It will beat D1 but not others every time if liu does it Frame perfect.




Other High Tiers that have + frames after jailed pokes:

Kabal's s2 is +3 on block and can be jailed from D1 take into account he also has a 8f mid and plenty other tools including true 50/50's and staggers off his 9f Mid:


Jax has a +1 off 12 jailed off D1/D3 and a +9 off F42 which can be jailed off D4 with wavedash and easily in corner

Cetrion, a top 5 character in several well known Tier List's that has a +3 off her s2 that can be jailed off her D1. She has tons of tools to force guess after:


Scorpion has a +2 off his 21 and its +19 on hit allowing him to do many things after and its possible to jail from D1 and very easy to jail off D3:


Geras a top 5 character which can jail into +3 in the corner off D3/D4:


Frost is +5 from a Jailed D1 and has an 11f mid making it require a 6f poke to trade just like LK 9f mid:

Scarlet is +6 from a jailed D1 & D3:

Baraka is +4 off both his pokes and his are the easiest to do:

Nightwolf is plus 1

Shang can be +6 off his auto shimmy after jailing from pokes.

Noob Saibot is +2 off his D3 jailed into s3 and has a 9f Mid that's safe and hit confirmable in Seeing Double.


There are plenty more with plus frames off jailed pokes and restands but I think that should demonstrate Liu is not the only one with this tool nor is it broken to have it especially when more than 5 high tiers have it and almost half the cast have plus frames off pokes.
I just knew some players where unaware that other character had this. A few people where telling me "how no other character had it and it was broken that liu is the only one to do this" except he isn't and its a tight link and to do his F4/B1 he has to be frame perfect. Its absolutely strong but not broke or unique.
 
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DeftMonk

Noob
Nothing in this game is a 1f outside of certain situations. There's a 3f buffer, just like SFV.
Did not know that about the buffer... but some shit still seems hella tight. One example was prepatch orbital hat into f1 with lao.
 
I'm hearing a lot of complaints about how broke his D1 jailed into 12 is and people complaining that its +3 on block.
Its not that insane and I'll try to illustrate that here.
He has several options after 12 is jailed and can jail into his F4 to stop opponents from ducking or interrupting. But this requires him to do the F4 in one frame otherwise 7f starters/pokes can interrupt him. As it stands even if he does it perfectly 6f pokes can interrupt his F4 after 12 on block so Subs D1, Errons D1 and Geras's D1.
But if he does it late by 1 or two frames 7 frane s can punish. This applies to B1 as well.
So he has other options: 12 and D1 are 7f
12 is a high high so it can be poked, ducked and D2 punished.
D1 gives up his turn and allows some characters to Neutral jump punish follow up or walk back into wiff punish.
But D1 and 12 after 12 has a 3f window and is fairly easy to do if practiced.

As for him having the +3 on block from a jailing poke, several characters have this and can use it in the same ways, in fact some characters have better tools like tick throws, better staggers off it, or even true 50/50's.

Other High Tiers that have + frames after jailed pokes:

Kabal's s2 is +3 on block and can be jailed from D1 take into account he also has a 8f mid and plenty other tools including true 50/50's and staggers off his 9f Mid:


Jax has a +1 off 12 jailed off D1/D3 and a +9 off F42 which can be jailed off D4 with wavedash and easily in corner

Cetrion, a top 5 character in several well known Tier List's that has a +3 off her s2 that can be jailed off her D1. She has tons of tools to force guess after:


Scorpion has a +2 off his 21 and its +19 on hit allowing him to do many things after and its possible to jail from D1 and very easy to jail off D3:


Geras a top 5 character which can jail into +3 in the corner off D3/D4:


There are plenty more with plus frames off jailed pokes and restands but I think that should demonstrate Liu is not the only one with this tool nor is it broken to have it especially when more than 5 high tiers have it and almost half the cast have plus frames off pokes.
I just knew some players where unaware that other character had this. A few people where telling me "how no other character had it and it was broken that liu is the only one to do this" except he isn't and its a tight link and to do his F4/B1 he has to be frame perfect. Its absolutely strong but not broke or unique.
You are wrong about 6 frame moves being able to interrupt perfectly executed 12 on block into f4. Why do people always forget about 1 frame that it takes in this game to get out of blocking animation unless you are doing a reversal special/throw?! 6 frames pokes are normals so they can't be done as a reversal attack, that makes them 7 frames after you blocked something. And at +3 Liu's f4 becomes 6 frames for you. No normal in the game can interrupt that done frame perfect.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
You are wrong about 6 frame moves being able to interrupt perfectly executed 12 on block into f4. Why do people always forget about 1 frame that it takes in this game to get out of blocking animation unless you are doing a reversal special/throw?! 6 frames pokes are normals so they can't be done as a reversal attack, that makes them 7 frames after you blocked something. And at +3 Liu's f4 becomes 6 frames for you. No normal in the game can interrupt that done frame perfect.
Yeah it trades if done frame perfect with 6f pokes. You are correct but I'm willing to bet even the best I'd players can't do stuff frame perfect every time and then there is online with 3f static.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
Yea Liu isn’t the only one that can jail + frames off a poke, but he is the only one who frame traps into a 9f mid that leads to more potential pressure. On top of two throw krushing blows to mix in there, his pressure game is much more threatening than anyone you mentioned.
That is not true. All of his options after F43 are punishable or reactable besides the stagger. Many characters have this in fact they have better staggers off their 9f mids liu Kangs is -7 which is nothing compared to many staggers in this game. I mean its very strong just not the best stagger.
Jax, Kabal, both have 9f mids and they have better options including using specials to force guess just Like LK but they also get 50/50's -4 staggers and much more. Kabal has cancel pressure of his 9f mid after jailing it from pokes.
Those are incredibly strong options, let's not pretend these other top tiers don't have layers to thief 9f mids

Jax's layers off jailed poke into +1 and jailed poke into +9 in the corner have many layers very similar to Liu's F4 options.
He has heated arm projectiles that can be safe, thumper unsafe like many if liu Kangs but is a guess, ground pound, mid CMD grab into KB, throw KB when heated, BF2 unsafe but a guess and can be made safe with meter and his stagger is -4 not -7 like Liu's. And 50/50's and with the plus 9 in corner he has much more.

Kabals layers off D1 jailed into +3 Into 9f mid:
50/50's, Bussaw, Amped buzzsaw safe, low Buzzsaw pretty safe vs several characters when amped, dash cancels that can be + to very safe, throw, good stagger and more.

And other characters have plenty if options.
Some don't have a 9f mId but have tons if strong options and let's not forget Cetrion is +3 from jailed poke and has a 10f low with several layers.
 
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CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
You are wrong about 6 frame moves being able to interrupt perfectly executed 12 on block into f4. Why do people always forget about 1 frame that it takes in this game to get out of blocking animation unless you are doing a reversal special/throw?! 6 frames pokes are normals so they can't be done as a reversal attack, that makes them 7 frames after you blocked something. And at +3 Liu's f4 becomes 6 frames for you. No normal in the game can interrupt that done frame perfect.
It’s actually backwards. There is no such thing as an “unblocking frame” for the animation. Normals simply come out at their expected frame (6-frame startup = active on the 7th frame).

Reversal specials remove one frame from their posted startup time.

Dizzy has cleared this up at least 2-3 times. Has nothing to do with blocking animations.
 
It’s actually backwards. There is no such thing as an “unblocking frame” for the animation. Normals simply come out at their expected frame (6-frame startup = active on the 7th frame).

Reversal specials remove one frame from their posted startup time.

Dizzy has cleared this up at least 2-3 times. Has nothing to do with blocking animations.
The explanation is backwards yes, but the application isn't what you are saying. Try it in the lab the 6 frame normal can't punish a -6 on block move, because it becomes a 7 frame move, and a 10 frame special can't reversal punish a -9 on block move so the removal of a frame of a specials posted start up is BS!
 
Yeah it trades if done frame perfect with 6f pokes. You are correct but I'm willing to bet even the best I'd players can't do stuff frame perfect every time and then there is online with 3f static.
It doesn't trade if done properly, a 6 frame move becomes a 7 frame if done right after blocking. F4 becomes 6 frames after 12 on block (+3 on block , a 9 frame mid). So Liu beats every normal possible!
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
It doesn't trade if done properly, a 6 frame move becomes a 7 frame if done right after blocking. F4 becomes 6 frames after 12 on block (+3 on block , a 9 frame mid). So Liu beats every normal possible!
iF the liu Kang does the link in 1f. But yes its strong but imo not broke. I'm starting to use Wu Shi Legend and its his best tool since his F4 options are greatly reduced in that variation.
But the point is several characters have these tools and some have imo better options off their 9f mid. All of Liu's F43xx specials are unsafe but if you look at Jax and Kabal they have many layers as well and can make some safe unlike Liu and Kabal can make himself +1 with NDC which opens up a whole new set of layers. Jax has some pretty scary options off his 9f mid when heated up and his +1 off jailing from pokes isn't anything to ignore considering he can also make it safe and has a CMD Grab with KB. In the corner jax has way better jailing from pokes including a +9 jailed off his D4 which is absolutely strong in itself, considering he is a strong Rushdown /corner carry character.
To be clear I'm not saying any of these characters need nerfs in fact the opposite. Its a cool tool.
 
It’s actually backwards. There is no such thing as an “unblocking frame” for the animation. Normals simply come out at their expected frame (6-frame startup = active on the 7th frame).

Reversal specials remove one frame from their posted startup time.

Dizzy has cleared this up at least 2-3 times. Has nothing to do with blocking animations.
Ok just realized that we mean the same thing: 6 frames normals don't punish -6 as they become active on the 7th frame and 10 frame specials become 9 frame as a reversal but punish only -10 since they become active on frame 10 in that case. So your explaination is the correct one.
 
iF the liu Kang does the link in 1f. But yes its strong but imo not broke. I'm starting to use Wu Shi Legend and its his best tool since his F4 options are greatly reduced in that variation.
But the point is several characters have these tools and some have imo better options off their 9f mid. All of Liu's F43xx specials are unsafe but if you look at Jax and Kabal they have many layers as well and can make some safe unlike Liu and Kabal can make himself +1 with NDC which opens up a whole new set of layers. Jax has some pretty scary options off his 9f mid when heated up and his +1 off jailing from pokes isn't anything to ignore considering he can also make it safe and has a CMD Grab with KB. In the corner jax has way better jailing from pokes including a +9 jailed off his D4 which is absolutely strong in itself, considering he is a strong Rushdown /corner carry character.
To be clear I'm not saying any of these characters need nerfs in fact the opposite. Its a cool tool.
You were correct about 6 frames normals trading with f4 after 12 on block. I labbed it. Crimson's explaination makes more sense. So yeah, a 6 frame move becomes active on the 7th frame, but the 9 frame f4 becomes active on the 10th (so at +3 it becomes 6 frames and active on the 7th) and it trades!))
 

TwiztidOne

I don't know who that is...
Ok just realized that we mean the same thing: 6 frames normals don't punish -6 as they become active on the 7th frame and 10 frame specials become 9 frame as a reversal but punish only -10 since they become active on frame 10 in that case. So your explaination is the correct one.
Yes he is right, so liu kang's f4 after a blocked 12 does have 6 frames of start up, but it doesn't become active until the 7th frame. So in theory you should be able to get a 6 frame normal to trade with f4 after 12 is blocked.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
You were correct about 6 frames normals trading with f4 after 12 on block. I labbed it. Crimson's explaination makes more sense. So yeah, a 6 frame move becomes active on the 7th frame, but the 9 frame f4 becomes active on the 10th (so at +3 it becomes 6 frames and active on the 7th) and it trades!))
That's what I meant. NP I probably didn't explain it well. I tend to do that sometimes :p
 
Oh my god this guy again and his another thread trying to downplay that sh*** op Broken character ....
When you going to stop ? Just like his buddy was downplaying him and was saying he is not playing Liu Kang, yet in his profile you can see he use only Liu Kang form the very begining. He is the doing the same crap.

And nqh Sub Zero D1 cant do s* because has s range and will whiff and will eat big s**.
And dont compare character that are far, far from Kang.
Jax damage outside of his KB is pure garbage. Kabal is well balanced character, but has nothing strong and special. Thats why he have like zero success in a Pro Stage.
 
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LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
I jail with Jax d1 into 12 for +1. If Liu gets +3 off that with all the other advantages he has over Jax... Seems like fucking bullshit to me
Jax has plenty of options also consider jax has +9 in the corner from jailing D4 into F42. I don't think either of them are BS though. Jax has many layers to his 9f mid and can make it safe when heated up and a CMD Grab.

Kabal has a +3 off a jailed poke that has a 9f mid which is -4 on block and has 50/50 and even Cancel pressure that is +1 on block there are so many layers to his 9f and cancel and has multiple safe special cancels off it unlike liu.
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
That is not true. All of his options after F43 are punishable or reactable besides the stagger. Many characters have this in fact they have better staggers off their 9f mids liu Kangs is -7 which is nothing compared to many staggers in this game. I mean its very strong just not the best stagger.
Jax, Kabal, both have 9f mids and they have better options including using specials to force guess just Like LK but they also get 50/50's -4 staggers and much more. Kabal has cancel pressure of his 9f mid after jailing it from pokes.
Those are incredibly strong options, let's not pretend these other top tiers don't have layers to thief 9f mids

Jax's layers off jailed poke into +1 and jailed poke into +9 in the corner have many layers very similar to Liu's F4 options.
He has heated arm projectiles that can be safe, thumper unsafe like many if liu Kangs but is a guess, ground pound, mid CMD grab into KB, throw KB when heated, BF2 unsafe but a guess and can be made safe with meter and his stagger is -4 not -7 like Liu's. And 50/50's and with the plus 9 in corner he has much more.

Kabals layers off D1 jailed into +3 Into 9f mid:
50/50's, Bussaw, Amped buzzsaw safe, low Buzzsaw pretty safe vs several characters when amped, dash cancels that can be + to very safe, throw, good stagger and more.

And other characters have plenty if options.
Some don't have a 9f mId but have tons if strong options and let's not forget Cetrion is +3 from jailed poke and has a 10f low with several layers.
To be fair yes kabals f4 is 6frames after s2 but it‘s only hitconfirmable in mean streak at a cost for a defensive bar and requires a lot of practice to do it consistently in battle. It‘s really good but not as unga bunga as it sounds especially in comparison to lk‘s pressure
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
Oh my god this guy again and his another thread trying to downplay that sh*** op Broken character ....
When you going to stop ?
And nqh Sub Zero D1 cant do s* because has s range and will whiff and will eat big s**.
Stop Downplaying Sub
And if you have a problem you can get our of my thread, none forced you to follow all my threads and spread misinformation.
I'm simply educating those willing to learn. You obviously aren't willing and have shown that daily. You have said very innacurate misleading posts and refused to acknowledge your mistakes even when many members of the community showed you evidence otherwise.

Just in the past couple threads you said:
  • Sub can't punish Liu's Amped Low Fireball canceled off F43. I provided you video evidence after you ignored several notible members and tournament players proving you can with several strings.
  • you then said Rewind, NiNjaKilla, and Dizzy got carried by the character. Others provided tweets from top players saying NinjaKilla outplayed them including Sonic.
  • you said liu kang has more options off his 9f than any other character. Others provided evidence otherwise.
  • you said LK has the best projectiles and zoning in the game. You must have forgot about 10+ characters.
  • you said his FB is the best. What about Jax, Kabal ect.
  • you said he has massive range on his F4 despite all the top 8 vids showing it wiffing when they used footsie.
  • you said liu kang can win using only F4 which is laughable and easily disproven in fact I did.
You went farther than this stating he us the best at everything.
You even called several members down players when they said Liu is top 5 S Tier! Because they dont agree with your insane claims and scrubby views. I legit tried to help you several times. I wasn't being mean until you started making wild false claims and calling me names.
 
Stop Downplaying Sub
And if you have a problem you can get our of my thread, none forced you to follow all my threads and spread misinformation.
I'm simply educating those willing to learn. You obviously aren't willing and have shown that daily. You have said very innacurate misleading posts and refused to acknowledge your mistakes even when many members of the community showed you evidence otherwise.

Just in the past couple threads you said:
  • Sub can't punish Liu's Amped Low Fireball canceled off F43. I provided you video evidence after you ignored several notible members and tournament players proving you can with several strings.
  • you then said Rewind, NiNjaKilla, and Dizzy got carried by the character. Others provided tweets from top players saying NinjaKilla outplayed them including Sonic.
  • you said liu kang has more options off his 9f than any other character. Others provided evidence otherwise.
  • you said LK has the best projectiles and zoning in the game. You must have forgot about 10+ characters.
  • you said his FB is the best. What about Jax, Kabal ect.
  • you said he has massive range on his F4 despite all the top 8 vids showing it wiffing when they used footsie.
  • you said liu kang can win using only F4 which is laughable and easily disproven in fact I did.
You went farther than this stating he us the best at everything.
You even called several members down players when they said Liu is top 5 S Tier! Because they dont agree with your insane claims and scrubby views. I legit tried to help you several times. I wasn't being mean until you started making wild false claims and calling me names.
This is why I’m slowly becoming a tym lurker lmao I don’t have the patience you do
 
Dude you are not some god, who is teaching his student. You simply are downplaying him and try to lower the wave towards him. But that aint happen, because that chararacter is OP Broken.
And no you are the one who is very innacurate and decide to go hidding when i post evidence on my points. You have done that plenty of times.
As far as your point:
I said Sub cant punish with his 1,2, because he whiff. Your memory lies to you, cause you try this and agree with me.
I never said ninjakilla or Dizzy get carried by Liu Kang. Dizzy is not even maining Liu Kang.

As far as his F4mix, i stand my point, and no one put evidence or corrected me. This is the move with the highest mixup option after the initial string. No other character have that OP move in the game. Go prove me wrong.

About Kang zoning i stand my point and Pro gameplay and last tournament prove this. Even Dragon with Cetrion escape zoning with Kang, because he have all the tools to counter him with his OP zoning and his anti-zoning tools - Flying Dragon Kick.
And i always said he is the best zoner for mixed character, and stand by my point.
But you can say 1 character with better overall tools and with such strong zoning game, that have low, high, air fireball and can amplify both low and the high and you have to guess when he is going to do, because of the animation you dont know what is coming.

I said Liu Kang have the best overall FB in terms of all thing taken to the consideration. In terms of landing, FB through combo and his option to FB from combos. No one touch him.
Kabal FB is reactable, and its not even close.
Jax and Erron FB in terms of landing is better, but in terms of scaling and combo from not coming close.
Also because of the pushback the chance to punish the move is close to zero. Should i mention his hitbox issue and that he can hit you even from behind ?

I never said he has massive range on his F4. I said he has okay range for such a fast mid, and i said his range is better than Sub Zero B3, you can go check that in the lab.

The last point is laughable. Because Liu Kang is brainless character. Easiest character to use. Can confirm any hit to high damage combos.
His play is dead stupid:
F4 is probably the most used move for a character. And yeah you can mindlessly win using this move, his high dmg KBs and his landing on will FB, and occasionally throw and 1,2.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
if you know the string OS then everyone will be safe and create the throw guessing game after + jailed frames.

Its just how many different points do i have to guess and which one leads to the most damage that will make you stronger.

For instance... Dark Sabbath Noob now is + frames with b1 being a 9 frame mid that can be OS cancelled such that he will never be punished and that will confirm into 400 damage combo if you try to push buttons. On top of also having a throw KB in both directions for 310 damage each.
Now he only has that one spot you have to figure out whats going to happen.

Scorpion is also in that chart with Searing Rage. He now NEVER has to fear the f32 being punished cuz it ain't never coming out on block. So you're going to have to deal with 21 and 212 into a throw or f3 or b1 etc without Scorpion having to actually HC f3 ever.
Not to mention in Reborn he has a layered OS with f34 and hellport cancel. F34 has the OS string cancel and the hellport itself has an OS cancel to always keep him safe.

crazy town these days boys.