Liu Kang's +3 on block from Jails, hes not the only one!

[fr stack]

This is why I’m slowly becoming a tym lurker lmao I don’t have the patience you do

You cant let these people push you away bro im pure trash at this game but unlike some i love hearing good players talk about the game 8)

 

[FonicSox]

I main Kabal Mean Streak.
if you bothered to read it all you would know I've stated liu needs stuff adjusted.

his Hurtboxes are Dumb AF especially after he throws making several characters not able to punish. I just disagree with a couple people since I think their suggestions are out of line. I have suggested his 9f mid be changed to 11f and be -10 on block which would greatly reduce his layers off that starter.
nerfing characters to the ground because salt isn't ever ok.

I can't speak for what anyone else has suggested, and -10 is unnecessary, but 11f startup wouldn't be a bad idea and +3 off jailable, confirmable 1,2 needs to go.

There's no reason all the oppressive, best staggers in the game should be tied to 9f mids whom the majority of the cast doesn't even have access to. If you can beat everyone to the punch you probably shouldn't also have the best punch. Something's gotta give there.

What is even the gripe with it being 11f? That Liu has to engage his brain in scrambles and can't mindlessly chain f4 into itself ad infinitum until you either guess right or eat one of the two krushing blows?

 

[Hellbringer]

You cant let these people push you away bro im pure trash at this game but unlike some i love hearing good players talk about the game 8)

Im getting a ps4 soon, be ready to get some games going broski

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I can't speak for what anyone else has suggested, and -10 is unnecessary, bit 11f startup wouldn't be a bad idea and +3 off jailable, confirmable 1,2 needs to go.

There's no reason all the oppressive, best staggers in the game should be tied to 9f mids whom the majority of the cast doesn't even have access to.

What is even the gripe with it being 11f? That Liu can't mindlessly chain them together until you either guess right or eat one of the two krushing blows?

I actually disagree with removing his +3 off 12. I don't feel its game breaking and there is couterplay built in. Its a high high and if he goes into F4 from it it can be trades with 6f pokes but if it was changed to 11f startup on F4 then 8f starters could interrupt 12 into F4.
That basically leaves him with 12 into B1/12/D1 he doesn't have many options off B1 so I feel its fine.

Many characters have + frames off jails like I showed above and none of them allow the characters to use all there buttons just there fastest ones. Nerfing F4 startup would definitely make him lose tools off plus frames.
Let's not forget everyone has a universal option to shut down plus frames into pokes and normals (Reversal Throw Counter) which comes out off buffer and overrides nearly everything if liu doesn't do his link in a just frame and can't be teched if its a punish. So if liu does 12 you can just buffer a reversal throw and it will beat his D1 follow-ups. Every character has this. It means if you use reversal throw after he jails into plus frames he can't mindlessly press buttons he will have to short hop or neutral jump to avoid the throw instead of pressing D1.
if liu is a tiny bit late on his 12 into F4/12 you can beat that as well
but its mainly for pokes:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172207795262771200

Reversal Throw is important more so with my suggested changes to liu making his F4 11f startup and -10 on block since it would beat several options no matter what.

A better example of this that works no matter how fast the character follows up is Kabals +3 on block F2xxNDC. this is beat by reversal Throw counter even iff he goes into F4/B1/11/D1 iffy that +3 NDC:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172214730783522817

So if Liu's F4 was 11f startup then Reversal Throw would beat it and you can confirm this by doing Liu's 12 into 212 which is 10f startup and Reversal Throw overrides it.

They way I approached it was I looked at him like he was my character and I wouldn't want everything taken from him.
The biggest problem liu has is his hurtboxes making him invulnerable after several moves. That is actually dumb. When liu throws and I duck it on read and go for D2 KB it wiff with several characters. That needs to be fixed.

 

[@MylesWright_]

So if liu does 12 you can just buffer a reversal throw and it will beat his D1 follow-ups.

This sums up this thread tbh

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

This sums up this thread tbh

Well currently it doesn't work if liu does it frame perfect but if he is late you can. But my suggestion if making Liu's F4 11f startup would allow every character in the game to Reversal Throw him if he did 12 into F4 and if he was doing anything else you just buffer after the next move and he is off you. I do this with mean streak kabal a ton because its one if his counters to his NDC pressure

 

[RAYBAANN]

Every PS4 controller right now lmao

 

[lordlosh]

This guy is a hardcore Liu Kang fan. Its also his main, but he is lying trying to put more weight to his opinion, just like his buddy was doing, but was catch.
And dude sometimes my post became long, but yours are ridiculous. Did you even think someone will decide to read the whole thing ?
As much as you trying to safe Liu *** it wont happen. He is going to eat the well deserved nerf, and not only to his F4, but all broken tool he have and all the tools he shouldnt have at first place.

 

[Wigy]

This guy is a hardcore Liu Kang fan. Its also his main, but he is lying trying to put more weight to his opinion, just like his buddy was doing, but was catch.
And dude sometimes my post became long, but yours are ridiculous. Did you even think someone will decide to read the whole thing ?
As much as you trying to safe Liu *** it wont happen. He is going to eat the well deserved nerf, and not only to his F4, but all broken tool he have and all the tools he shouldnt have at first place.

Or NRS will inexplicably barely touch him if the last patch is anything to go off rofl.

And Kano will probably get a nerf.

 

[trufenix]

haha, you think anybody here still wants to learn?

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Welp you're trying so hard.

He gets +3 on block frames off one of the best auto simmy strings in the game, which also happens to be a stagger for 124 AND we're talking about the character with the very BEST throw game in the roster.

He also has a 9F mid that he can hit confirm. Even if he HAPPENS to be off against a 7F d1 he is not risking much, worst case scenario he eats a d1 (which he shouldn't if you practice your timing) and on the other side he gets a krushing blow f43u3, his staggers are also really good so he is at advantage the whole time.
I'm sorry but if you're really gonna compare that to a character gettin a random s4 jail that gives him literally nothing, you're trippin'

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Welp you're trying so hard.

He gets +3 on block frames off one of the best auto simmy strings in the game, which also happens to be a stagger for 124 AND we're talking about the character with the very BEST throw game in the roster.

He also has a 9F mid that he can hit confirm. Even if he HAPPENS to be off against a 7F d1 he is not risking much, worst case scenario he eats a d1 (which he shouldn't if you practice your timing) and on the other side he gets a krushing blow f43u3, his staggers are also really good so he is at advantage the whole time.
I'm sorry but if you're really gonna compare that to a character gettin a random s4 jail that gives him literally nothing, you're trippin'

I've said he is S Tier the entire time. Just showing 20+ characters have plus frames off jailing. I've also states multiple times what I think can tone him down. Look up

The 12 isn't an auto shimmy unless its jailed from pokes because it is a high high meaning it can't catch people ducking.
But yes 12 is very strong but imo not broke

 

[lordlosh]

No the whole character is broke.
No one have better string with + frame than Kang. Its one thing to have 1 hit + frames, and like Liu the string to be 2 hit.
Sub Zero F4 is +4 on block, but that move sucks. There is like 2835742346562 ways to counter that move and most of the time before the hit connect you will eat a big punish. Also this move have incredible big window for U+3 or U+2 after FB.
And no he is tier of its own. Your downplaying him big time. In previous threads you were saying he is not the best character, but top 5, and there was better character, which is pure s****. You are contradicting to yourself big time.

You also said completely b.c. which i prove you wrong many times. Was tring to put Kabal into mix, where he is not even close to Kang.

I dont see a reason character like Johnny Cage to litteraly have zero useful KBs, yet Kang to have 6, which 4 is super OP broken and easy to land asf.
Johnny to have s**** zoning, yet Kang to have 100 time better zoning.
Johnny to have s**** FB, yet Kang to have best ING.
And in the same time Kang to have better pressure + best turn stealer ING, and also the best round stealer ING.

Even the difference between Kang and top tier characters are huge, what to said about lower tiers and him.

 

[Braindead]

Let's not forget everyone has a universal option to shut down plus frames into pokes and normals (Reversal Throw Counter) which comes out off buffer and overrides nearly everything if liu doesn't do his link in a just frame and can't be teched if its a punish. So if liu does 12 you can just buffer a reversal throw and it will beat his D1 follow-ups. Every character has this. It means if you use reversal throw after he jails into plus frames he can't mindlessly press buttons he will have to short hop or neutral jump to avoid the throw instead of pressing D1.
if liu is a tiny bit late on his 12 into F4/12 you can beat that as well

Yes when Liu is +3 and goes for a 7f poke or a 9f mid anyone can beat that with a 10f counter.

That's totally how fighting games work.

 

[Dogeofthesea]

someone starts to sound like an antivaxx lul

 

[trufenix]

wait a minute, is this the game with the ad campaign whose next? or was that mkx? I feel like we're literally doing that now.

 

[HiddenSelectCounterPick]

That is not true. All of his options after F43 are punishable or reactable besides the stagger. Many characters have this in fact they have better staggers off their 9f mids liu Kangs is -7 which is nothing compared to many staggers in this game. I mean its very strong just not the best stagger.
Jax, Kabal, both have 9f mids and they have better options including using specials to force guess just Like LK but they also get 50/50's -4 staggers and much more. Kabal has cancel pressure of his 9f mid after jailing it from pokes.
Those are incredibly strong options, let's not pretend these other top tiers don't have layers to thief 9f mids

Jax's layers off jailed poke into +1 and jailed poke into +9 in the corner have many layers very similar to Liu's F4 options.
He has heated arm projectiles that can be safe, thumper unsafe like many if liu Kangs but is a guess, ground pound, mid CMD grab into KB, throw KB when heated, BF2 unsafe but a guess and can be made safe with meter and his stagger is -4 not -7 like Liu's. And 50/50's and with the plus 9 in corner he has much more.

Kabals layers off D1 jailed into +3 Into 9f mid:
50/50's, Bussaw, Amped buzzsaw safe, low Buzzsaw pretty safe vs several characters when amped, dash cancels that can be + to very safe, throw, good stagger and more.

And other characters have plenty if options.
Some don't have a 9f mId but have tons if strong options and let's not forget Cetrion is +3 from jailed poke and has a 10f low with several layers.

Correct me if I'm wrong but heated projectile up close is not safe....I think you're trying to say everyone is comparable to lui's dumb braindead pressure. I play GB Jax he is definitely not easy. Lui players never have to commit to anything just bsing around all set.

I jail with Jax d1 into 12 for +1. If Liu gets +3 off that with all the other advantages he has over Jax... Seems like fucking bullshit to me

IDK what the OP is trying to say like I agree with you. Kang has what everyone else has but stronger.....just a excuse to keep playing that easy beginner character lets say Jax is + one so what Lui is +3 and can autoshimmy into more braindead staggers Jax isn't getting much off of +1 I don't care what anyone says. So after hes plus 1 hes going to do another High?? I get d2'd for trying again. Give me a break Lui is the EASIEST to Master hands down. Lui has 2 9f STRINGS that stagger.



In the words of Kano
"Would you settle for me....."

 

[lordlosh]

Stop compare Jax to Kang. Jax have 3 great KBs, One of the best FB ing, but he have crap damage, outside of his KBs, his zoning is blqh, and cant pressure and still turns like Kang.
Yet Kang have 6 KBs, 2 of which are N1, because are on hos throws, others are landing every single set, one of the best FB ing as well, but he also have great damage outside of his KB, insane zoning + anti-zoning + anti air + best pressure and best turn and round stealer ING.
After every hit/combo he did he is in a great space to do more damage. If he finish combo, he throws you away and you will take more damage, because of his zoning, that you cant escape.

Neither Jax or Kabal are even remotely close to Kang.
GunShow is great, great Jax player, and best he could do is top 8 losers. Should i even mention previous tournaments and Jax or Kabal placing ?
Kabal placing at top stage so far is pure garbage.

 

[Trini_Bwoi]

1,2 on block into F4 is easily the best block trap in the game and it isn't even close

Most characters can only get a poke or one of their lesser strings on +block. Liu gets his best strings.

Most character +block strings push the opponent back, making follow ups not guaranteed. For example, After S2 with Kabal the opponent can simply dash back and his knee will whiff. Liu's F4 is guaranteed, no dashing out.

It also leaves him in throw range which is disgusting

And if that wasn't enough, F4 is multi hit so most characters can't flawless block U2 punish it.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Yes when Liu is +3 and goes for a 7f poke or a 9f mid anyone can beat that with a 10f counter.

That's totally how fighting games work.

You obviously didn't read what I said, if liu is late and not frame perfect you can but if he does it frame perfect from 12 into F4 you can't. But if my suggestion of making his F4 an 11f mid you could because its buffered 3f before.
I'm a Kabal player which I've said.
I find it funny Liu is so hated even though he had all this shit plus more prepatch. His jailing is easier now but his fireball was nerfed, his F3 and F3333 and F3333xx into SS3 was nerfed and some everyone is acting like he is a million times better. Either everyone didn't know about him prepatch and just discovered all of this or ignored it.

All I did was take a single tool he had and show several characters have plus frame with many tools to mix on follow-up even characters with 9f mids and layers after.
I didn't say any character was broke!
Yet many took it that way because I showed some tools characters had?

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Correct me if I'm wrong but heated projectile up close is not safe....

Ohh I wasn't saying Jax was broke or anyone else. Just showing many have this. I believe his heated double fireball has massive pushback and is safe vs most of the cast.

A lot of the tools these characters have are different but facilitate guess like most characters.
For example Frost has a +5 with an 11f mid meaning both liu and her are 6f after the plus frames are accounted for. Obviously frost isn't Liu.
I believe Jax, Kabal, Baraka, Geras and others are all high tier maybe not top tier but at least high tier and the plus frames are effective with their tools.
Once again I'm not saying its broke in fact the opposite. That type of guess is all over this game.

 

[lordlosh]

Yep Liu Kang is not broken, not even one a bit:

The set against SonicFox start at 12:00 minute.
Have in mind that SonicFox has being in every single Grand Final major in MK11 so far.

So by LawAbidingCitizen SonicFox obviously dont know the matchup and dont know how to counter F4, Kang KBs and FB.

 

[THTB]

Nothing in this game is a 1f outside of certain situations. There's a 3f buffer, just like SFV.

Dunno if this was ever addressed, but this is not the case.

After blocking things, yes, the 3f buffer applies. Everywhere else, though, there is no buffer.

Per @Dizzy

 

[FonicSox]

Ohh I wasn't saying Jax was broke or anyone else. Just showing many have this. I believe his heated double fireball has massive pushback and is safe vs most of the cast.

A lot of the tools these characters have are different but facilitate guess like most characters.
For example Frost has a +5 with an 11f mid meaning both liu and her are 6f after the plus frames are accounted for. Obviously frost isn't Liu.
I believe Jax, Kabal, Baraka, Geras and others are all high tier maybe not top tier but at least high tier and the plus frames are effective with their tools.
Once again I'm not saying its broke in fact the opposite. That type of guess is all over this game.

The problem is still that you're focusing on being + in a vacuum. Liu Kang's +3 isn't too strong because "holy wowza being +3 is insane and no one else has that!!" It's what being +3 means for a character that can loop the situation, has 2 9f confirmable mid staggers and krushing blows attached to both throws (one of which yields oki/loops). Is Kabal or anyone else as scary and oppressive as Liu Kang when they're plus? No. The end.

It's false equivalence imo. There's a reason Liu is picking up steam in a way none of these other top tiers have. Waz, Dizzy etc are suddenly putting a lot of time into picking this character up, as either a secondary or a new main. He really is every bit as overtuned as purported. And as soon as he gets nerfed to a reasonable level they'll drop him. Even NinjaKilla, who has been viewed as this LK loyalist actually played more Jacqui when he felt Liu Kang wasn't quite there.

 

[Dizzy]

Dunno if this was ever addressed, but this is not the case.

After blocking things, yes, the 3f buffer applies. Everywhere else, though, there is no buffer.

Per @Dizzy

Correct. For normals there is a 2f buffer. Your attacks comes out frame perfect if pressed in that 3 frame window, when coming out of block. Other situations do not have this buffer.