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Liu Kang's +3 on block from Jails, hes not the only one!

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
JUST STOP COMPARING LIU TO KABAL !!!

You have no knowledge about Kabal at all or just downplaying LK or both.
Seriously? I'm just not downplaying him. Keep in mind I've never said Kabal needed nerfs just pointing out his options.
Kabal is S Tier and that's fine I don't think he needs nerfs, he isn't broke. I use Mean Streak because I love his + on block cancels and jails. He has great everything.
Nothing wrong with it either there is counter play to his stuff just like every other character.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
As good as Kabal is, he is not S tier and is not even close to Kang, Not close to Geras, Sonya or Cetrion as well.
And everyone here start understanding what you are trying to do and its not working. :D

Dude everyone knows its fuzzyable in Clean cut its a 2f fuzzy not very easy to do and that only works if he is only doing Two options: F22xxBF2/F224 but if he does F2xx or F2 throw or any other option like stagger it doesn't work and its a tight timing.
The variation I use has a larger window to fuzzy 5f because his low buzzsaw is 27f startup. But its still effective because he has other options like ND Cancel's or -4 stagger and they have to guess because fuzxying won't stop a throw or his other timings.

Its just like Geras & Erron they are fuzzyable But you can still mix up pro players with more options thrown into the mix.

I believe Kabal is high tier in every pros tier list. Sonic, Tweedy, Wound, And others had him in S to S- and only a few had him in A+.

Am I saying he needs nerfed no I am not. I. Saying he is very strong. Everyone knows he is strong, he wasn't touched on last patch and he is the only character without FB Gaps.
He has:
  • Good Zoning
  • Great Mid
  • Normals that are extended without hurtbox.
  • no gaps
  • Solid U+2/U+3 wakeup and Flawless Blocks.
  • one if the best AA's in the game (D4)
  • Great close up tools
  • Great pressure
  • Great Footsie
  • Combos from full screen and projectile
  • one of the best FB's in the game
  • good KB's
  • Solid Damage
  • Restands
  • Looping throws with KB
  • Plus on block Cancels
  • Good Mixup
He is good at everything just not the best at everything but can handle most characters because he has the tools.

What the hell do you mean what I'm trying to do?
- This may shock you but I'm just sharing my opinion honestly no agenda here. Just trying to keep every character from getting unjust nerfs.

A couple people freaked out because I was showing stuff Kabal had. Because many are calling +3 on block from jailing broke on kang. Naturally a few fellow Kabal mains came to defend. What they didn't understand is I'm not saying what he or anyone else has is broke. At least not what I was showing in vids. I don't think they need nerfs.
I actually believe Liu Kang needs his Hurtbox fixed after certain moves so he can be punished properly vs characters with short range D2's but I don't think he deserves anything else.

I know you think he deserves to be deleted from the game but many things you suggested would bring him below mid tier if not bottom especially if he
Got everything you suggested.

I suggested F4 be punishable and 10-11f startup on Liu Kang even though I don't think he needs it just to get people to shut up about him. Its Scorpion all over again he really is the new Evil.
I don't think F4 is godlike by itself like you do. I think his tools put together used properly at a high level makes him very strong.
 
Oh dude you are a lost cause. Didnt you realize that it wont help trying to downplay Kang, by messing with other characters and said they the same tools as him and crap like that? :D
Kabal is not close to Kang in any aspect of that game and its ntohing special. His result at Pro stage said it all. And even if we look at character potential and said the people that playing him underperforming i may agree with that, but his potential is nothing great.
You are typing novels with untrue things, that has nothing to do in a real situation.

And again you are given misleadge information:
SonicFox had Kabal in his A+ tier list:
Tweedy had him even lower:


PNDK&M had him in the end of A+

So pls try harder next time. :D
Even with all the suggestion i give to nerf him, he will still be in the mix with one of the best characters. That broken good he is.

P.P. This video summaries some of the s* why Kang is so OP strong:

The point he make after his back throw and that Kang is always in the right spot after every string, throw, etc is right on point, and you just going to eat more damage thanks to his ridiculous zoning.

Now im asking where the people that was laughing at me saying Kang has one of the best zoning in the game disappear? Now everyone that understand the game said Liu has either best or one of the best zoning in the game.
He FB for high damage, thats not enough he is in a sweet spot to zone your a*** out. He throw you, he is in a sweet spot to zone you out. He finish his combo, he is in a great spot to zone you out.
Whatever he do he is in a perfect spot, to do more damage, and you cant do a s**** but take that extra damage.
 
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Reactions: JTC

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
Yes the 50/50 us fuzzyable but there are other options. Unsafe but several require a different response like you showed above.

F41+3
F4xxDB1
F4xxBF1
F4xxDB4
F4 -4 stagger
F4 nomad
F4xxNDC into others

All if these require different responses just like liu Kangs F4 mix
Keep in mind I made the comparison because liu Kangs majority of options off F4 are all punishable but if conditioned you can get away with a lot like many characters.

Liu Kang's punishable options off F4 and F43 (many are reactable) :

Amped high fireball (duckable on first and 3rd hit even if jailed)
Fireball (duckable)
Low fireball (punishable)
Amped low fireball (duckable on last hit more than -20)
F43U3 has a gap 10f
Shaolin stance options are punishable
Parry is reactable and -35 on recovery

So you can see the comparison. Just because they are punishable doesn't make them any less of an option.

I'm not saying any of these characters need nerfs for having options!
The only thing worth to do from the things you mentioned is f41+3 and ndc though. Of course every special he has is an option but you could also say that about every character and every string or button in the game. Db4,bf1 are definitely not worth it since there is literally no mind game and both are extremely punishable. Nd can work but due to one button cancel options it won‘t for like 99% of the time but I will get more into that now. Liu also creates a stagger mindgame with f4 itself which kabal simply can‘t do.
The big difference here is how liu is +3 after a 2 hitting string and kabal after a single button. You‘re more likely open up people by trying to find a gap after liu‘s +3 simply because of reaction time to a string. After kabals s2 people will more likely hold the follow up if it‘s fast enough, that‘s why f4ndc and throw are so good and all the other unsafe options not viable at all. It was the same with mkx dvorahs f112cancel into s2. Even when it only was +2 Block pressure after it was really easy to get even though f1 didn‘t jail or even frame trap from it simply because reacting to single button plus frames is hard, that‘s why throw was such a good option after it. Kabal‘s s2 is essentially the Same. When I do s2 I often use my plusframes to walk back into b1 range because it opens more people up than f4. Imo they‘re not comparable at all.
 
All this talk of counterplay and i just watched pros hold all the f4 shit nonstop including the best player in the world.

You can't make comparisons to other characters but just saying x character has the same as Kang so it's fine. You need to take the whole character into account. The only reason I can think you'd bother making a thread with this comparison is to dull the hate toward Kang but it's a pointless comparison.

These other characters don't have a 9 frame with like 4 guessing games, another 9 frame mid, an advancing high string that's plus 3 a bunch of other staggers.

He has 6 KBs (not including d2) that are all very easy to land. A top tier fatal blow that's nigh impossible to punish.

There's plenty of stuff that looks good on paper but dealing with all of his 7228 options up close on reaction is a completely different thing.

Oh and he has the best antiair in the game and great zoning that leads to basically unavoidable chip deaths constantly.

He is too good. These comparisons are dumb. Theory craft as much as you want he's absolutely tearing up the pro scene and ruining KL

If they don't patch this soon the scene is going to take a huge hit.
You're quickly becoming my favorite poster on here. All valid points. I've been worrying about the same thing -- I contend Liu being allowed to remain in a state where he's so blatantly the best/easiest to use that 70% of all KL matches are against the character and he's stomping to 1st place in tournaments from players who weren't doing so with him LITERALLY a month or whenever back prior to him reaching #1 status will actually hurt the interest level in the game in the long run. There's no possible way people are having fun only fighting this character and this is the only character you fight currently. It's not just that he's strong, it's that there's effectively no real barrier to entry to accessing his strength in matches. You don't even have to be optimal. Anybody can hop into matches and start perma-locking you down with variations of 1,2 and f4.

I don't understand the point in the downplay. Nobody is arguing you literally have zero counterplay options at your disposal, rather the scenarios Liu Kang forces you into MASSIVELY favor him.

Two 9f mids (if I'm honest, I don't get the trend of chars with the best staggers in the game all starting said staggers from the fastest mid, but I digress), one of which has several innate guessing games tied to it and leads to two different krushing blows. Frankly not even taking into consideration that he can jail you into a +3 jab he's a poor design. You don't even have to use his unsafe options after f4. Rewind wasn't doing any of that at all. At no point did he use parry in top 8 and I honestly don't even recall him going to low/high fireball options after the strings. There was no need, Liu is safe after all of them anyway. You can just stick to variations of f4 and f43, and for all this talk of "just take your turn, bro, he's -7," it was sure catching the hell out of Dragon, Foxy and Sonic.

Maybe they're just bad players tho. ^-^
 
And you can add to argument, that in MK11 Rewind record never won against Dragon, Foxy and SonicFox, before switching to Kang, and his result was pure average before start using it. And Rewind did not spend much time with Kang, yet he won 3 consecutive big tournament with him. And again he is not even the best Kang player out there.
4 Straight win for Kang player, while 3 was in big tournament and done by two different player ...

Against this video shows why Kang is so dangerous, and he is not even showing his full potential .....
 

The_Tile

Your hole is mine!
A couple people freaked out because I was showing stuff Kabal had. Because many are calling +3 on block from jailing broke on kang. Naturally a few fellow Kabal mains came to defend. What they didn't understand is I'm not saying what he or anyone else has is broke. At least not what I was showing in vids. I don't think they need nerfs.
I actually believe Liu Kang needs his Hurtbox fixed after certain moves so he can be punished properly vs characters with short range D2's but I don't think he deserves anything else.
We came to defend cause you said he had an 8f staggerable mid lmao
 
The beauty is the mass scale downplaying isn't going to amount to anything but nonsensical TYM theorycraft banter. There's no way the char is escaping nerfs. It's not even comparable to last season where the other tops weren't hit very hard: Liu Kang's playrate and winrate alone are going to put up red flags to NRS, and this season is also unique in that pre-patch it was a who's who of who the actual #1 char was (Sonya, Cassie, Erron, take your pick). Within the top tiers at least it was fairly balanced; this time around Liu Kang is blatantly #1 and probably has the most unhealthy gameplay design of any top tiers.
 
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JDE

You will learn Respect!
Good discussion, but these threads can be made without people sounding all butt hurt. Just saying.

Tbh, Liu Kang isn’t all that bad to deal with. I don’t think a character should be punished because of people constantly playing him online. That’s for sure. Only thing I disagree with is having 2 KB throws & then 2 mids. He already has a KB off of F43U3 & his parry. These 2 & flying kick are fine. People use F4 more than B1 because F4 is a more consistent tool to use. Kang’s are still afraid of B1 either whiffing or the string not coming out. B1 is actually a button with stagger potential.

He was intended to be made simple yet effective & depending on how they go about changing him can either wreck his design or make it to where he’s not able to be played 1 way. That’ll make his players adjust throughout matches.
 
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Wigy

There it is...
@LawAbidingCitizen


"What the hell do you mean what I'm trying to do?
- This may shock you but I'm just sharing my opinion honestly no agenda here. Just trying to keep every character from getting unjust nerfs."

You realise you just said you have no agenda then literally the next sentence state an agenda.
I think to anyone seeing your proposed changes to Kang that reads more 'i just want my character to get barely nerfed'
 
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I always said that Cassie was strong, but pretty fair to the rest of the cast. She was well balanced as a strong character, but her FB sucks, and she lacks KBs.
She doesnt have throw KBS, which in the current state of the game is probably N1, and to have not one, but two KB in your throw is stand alone OP mechanic.
Cassie also doesnt have KB on her best move, unlike Kang in his F4 move.
Her best KB was Shocker, and its a solo move, you cant combo from it.

I still dont get how she get nerfed, but Kang wasnt touched at all(his low fireball touch was pure nothing).
Geras and Sonya to me was a problem. And still Geras damage is still too high.

JDE, nqh he is not allright. He is Broken. And you forget to menton his Bicycle Kick KB, that you simply land every single set when its matter.

And if you are going to design a easy to play character for newbee, he should be overall good and easy to use, but at high and pro level he shouldnt be a factor at all. Just like Scorpion for example.
Jade is also a good example. She is easy to play, but nothing special at mid-high-pro level of play.

When you design mad easy character, who is OP at all diffucly levels, then you do something really wrong.
 

JDE

You will learn Respect!
I always said that Cassie was strong, but pretty fair to the rest of the cast. She was well balanced as a strong character, but her FB sucks, and she lacks KBs.
She doesnt have throw KBS, which in the current state of the game is probably N1, and to have not one, but two KB in your throw is stand alone OP mechanic.
Cassie also doesnt have KB on her best move, unlike Kang in his F4 move.
Her best KB was Shocker, and its a solo move, you cant combo from it.

I still dont get how she get nerfed, but Kang wasnt touched at all(his low fireball touch was pure nothing).
Geras and Sonya to me was a problem. And still Geras damage is still too high.

JDE, nqh he is not allright. He is Broken. And you forget to menton his Bicycle Kick KB, that you simply land every single set when its matter.

And if you are going to design a easy to play character for newbee, he should be overall good and easy to use, but at high and pro level he shouldnt be a factor at all. Just like Scorpion for example.
Jade is also a good example. She is easy to play, but nothing special at mid-high-pro level of play.

When you design mad easy character, who is OP at all diffucly levels, then you do something really wrong.
The bicycle kick also takes 3 amplified hits before the blow is activated the same way Cassie’s nutpunch is which also costs meter. That’s not dumb.

He makes you afraid to not throw tech. Would you rather say “bicycle kick kB is dumb” or risk throw teching & lose half life for being slightly off with throw tech timing? Throws are more scarier imo. Playing other games, he’s nowhere near as dumb. That’s another topic though. All I’m saying is he doesn’t need to be wrecked but does need some looking into. You have to be fair about it if his players just like everyone else. People hated Scorpion because of teleport but the reality of it is his nerf actually just nerfed people who teleported a lot in neutral.

With Liu Kang idk how they’d change him without him being less attractive in competitive play. I actually find him much easier to play than Scorpion even before he was changed (I don’t main either of them, but did play sets with them).
 
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Where you see me saying that his Bicycle Kick Kbs is dumb? :D
I just mention that he have another KB that he litteraly land every single set.
And with the current state of meters, when they reg super fast, 3 amplification is nothing special. You need to connect 2 time to get his Bicycle Kick KBs ready. Most pro players amplify it 2 time in their first combo, and then you need just 1 combo to get the huge dmg ready to go.
And did you read my whole post? I said Throw KBs in the current state is simply N1. Its messing with you big time, esp. when you know there is 2 KBs in his throws.

And every single one of his KBs is high, high damage.

As i said his F4 Kbs is okay, his Bicycle Kick KBs is okay, his parry and Flying Dragon Kick KBs are okay.
His both Throw KBs need to go. His FB need to be reworked as well. His Low and High Fireball amplification needs to go.
Flying Dragon Kick needs to be adjusted.
F4 needs to be adjusted to 12f. His 1,2 needs to be +1 or +2 on block.
Shaolin Stance - replace Monk Fury with real OH, that is 23-25f.
Lower his anti-air option.
And maybe give him new string, that he can combo from.

If you going to balance the right way, you take something and give something.
The character will still be very good, but just not Broken good, how its now.

Kang players have enough time riding the wave, let some other characters shine now.
Kotal, Kitana, Raiden, Kano, Johnny Cage, Shao Khan needs some love.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
@LawAbidingCitizen


"What the hell do you mean what I'm trying to do?
- This may shock you but I'm just sharing my opinion honestly no agenda here. Just trying to keep every character from getting unjust nerfs."

You realise you just said you have no agenda then literally the next sentence state an agenda.
I think to anyone seeing your proposed changes to Kang that reads more 'i just want my character to get barely nerfed'
That's funny you say that because if you have paid attention to all of my posts in liu kang threads I've openly stated that I only was using Liu Kang for 2 Weeks to better understand the character. It was the OP Challenge I spoke of before. I thought certain characters where broke and high level players told me to pick them up for two weeks.
I encourage everyone to do the same. It changed my mind.

I dropped LK for Kabal Mean Streak just so you know. And the variation I did use the most was WSL when I used LK.
I just think its dumb players want to Nerf a character because they lack MU experience or Knowledge of the character.
Real players lab there problems away unless its actually game breaking

I know some feel like other characters are very strong or too strong because their character is lacking. Still no reason to Nerf what can be beat in the lab. Those characters should get help.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
We came to defend cause you said he had an 8f staggerable mid lmao
It was a typo lol obviously itsa 9f mid and its -4 and its staggerable not only because its that safe but because there are buttons after like F41+3 and specials. Then I was met with downplay. I've never stayed kabal needed nerfs never all I did was show some of his options and visualize he had a +3 on block from jailing.
When I stated he had options just like liu after the F4 a few mains stated the Amped low buzzsaw was useless and not an option because it can be jumped even though its a guess between regular and amped and he can AA them for jumping it.
Then they said his straight buzzsaws where not options because they can be ducked or poked except it requires a guess and liu has the very same thing. They all are punishable and have counters but having multiple options in the mix makes unsafe options safe when guessed wrong.
 
Are other people in this thread besides LiuAbidingCitizen actually attempting to argue Liu isn't ridiculous? I can't be bothered to read all of it, but if so, yikes.
 

Wigy

There it is...
That's funny you say that because if you have paid attention to all of my posts in liu kang threads I've openly stated that I only was using Liu Kang for 2 Weeks to better understand the character. It was the OP Challenge I spoke of before. I thought certain characters where broke and high level players told me to pick them up for two weeks.
I encourage everyone to do the same. It changed my mind.

I dropped LK for Kabal Mean Streak just so you know. And the variation I did use the most was WSL when I used LK.
I just think its dumb players want to Nerf a character because they lack MU experience or Knowledge of the character.
Real players lab there problems away unless its actually game breaking

I know some feel like other characters are very strong or too strong because their character is lacking. Still no reason to Nerf what can be beat in the lab. Those characters should get help.
That's your opinion and that's all.

Any 'i don't play this character's chat, we just have to take your word for it.

You think fox and dragon didn't know the matchup. They still held all that shit and got blown out the ass with it. On paper there's counterplay but you have to react to 728 different strong tools and mind games.

He's undefendable. He needs nerfed and not just 1 or 2 frames shaven off f4
 
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LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
That's your opinion and that's all.

Any 'i don't play this character's chat, we just have to take your word for it.

You think fox and dragon didn't know the matchup. They still held all that shit and got blown out the ass with it. On paper there's counterplay but you have to react to 728 different strong tools and mind games.

He's undefendable. He needs nerfed and not just 1 or 2 frames shaven off f4
Thats your opinion and I believe its wrong. You do realize the players you stated got murdered where on final round with less than 15% on both sides it was the closest top 16 ever. Not only that but those very same players stated they got beat by skill not the character.



Let's not forget any player if that skill can make other top players hold shit like Sonics D'Vorah vs Dragons Highborn Kitana. He was holding for days vs Kitana

 
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Wigy

There it is...
@LawAbidingCitizen

You REALLY think these players with sponsors are guna go and call out someone and look really bad?

That would put them on blast from so many people shitting on the new Young blood after he just won a tournament.

You're either an idiot or being willfully ignorant to know that these players are not going to say shit in this circumstance.

They still got bodied and Liu has won like 3 tournaments in a row and ruining KL
 
@LawAbidingCitizen

You REALLY think these players with sponsors are guna go and call out someone and look really bad?

That would put them on blast from so many people shitting on the new Young blood after he just won a tournament.

You're either an idiot or being willfully ignorant to know that these players are not going to say shit in this circumstance.
And not just that, I frankly don't care what top players say when I can see what's happening with my own eyes. If their statements are at all contradictory to the clear reality they can be dismissed as quickly as you'd dismiss Fox calling Kotal A tier. In 3 games f0xy didn't win a single round. Rewind who could never touch any of these guys in tournaments prior is suddenly a world beater.

No disrespect to Rewind and he absolutely played well, but Liu Kang is a huge problem. SonicFox straight up said he's using a different character to try and deal with him moving forward.

With due respect, this entire thread is an exercise in futility. When you're so deep down the theory craft rabbit hole you're coming away with "honestly if you just carry the 1 and subtract a few numbers here and there, Kabal and Liu Kang more or less have the same shit. Mostly. Probably?" you've lost me as an audience.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
Are other people in this thread besides LiuAbidingCitizen actually attempting to argue Liu isn't ridiculous? I can't be bothered to read all of it, but if so, yikes.
I main Kabal Mean Streak.
if you bothered to read it all you would know I've stated liu needs stuff adjusted.

his Hurtboxes are Dumb AF especially after he throws making several characters not able to punish. I just disagree with a couple people since I think their suggestions are out of line. I have suggested his 9f mid be changed to 11f and be -10 on block which would greatly reduce his layers off that starter.
nerfing characters to the ground because salt isn't ever ok.