Video/Tutorial - Dragons Fire Liu Kang Pseudo block infinite explained

[STRYKIE]

F21 fbrc is one the most exploited fake cancels liu has. The scorpion player can easily react to that and full combo punish. Its really a give n go situation but if scorpion has meter, on paper, he is in the winning situation.

I said F12, and if people are able to visibly see your cancel then you need to tighten your shit up.

This is just a small sample of ideally what perfect FBRCs on any string should look like, even when I fucked up on the second one that's still not enough of a window for the opponent to adequately react accordingly in a real time environment.

@STRYKIE
Yeah, thought it'd be a bad idea. Maybe just edit the frame data on that particular fireball? Dualist and Flame Fist really profit from f213's cancel advantage.

...also, did you just quote me without orange text? u wan fite me irl dude?

Increasing the fireball cancel window is part of what I've suggested, so yeah lol.

And I am guilty of copy pasting over quoting. This thread is becoming a bit hard to keep up with.

For Scorpion I was mainly referring to something like 21 xx fbc xx 214 etc etc does pretty much the same damage as his 214 xx tele BnB. Does that fall under the less than 7 rule I guess? Honest question.

And I think I had someone like Raiden in mind where his LRC's are key to high damage. For example don't you get higher damage with raiden's 214 xx ex shocker, NJP, run, b14 xx LRC, 214 xx superman than forgoing the run cancel and doing b14 superman?

I always thought it was a way to continue your combo into higher damage. What do you mean by more for conversion than damage? Couldn't I convert LK's f44 xx fbf4 BnB much easier than f44 xx fbc xx fbf4?

Essentially yes, because 21 on hit does a little under 6% in terms of true damage.

In the case of the Raiden BNB, you're getting a higher damage combo because you're doing more stuff in the BNB lol. There's probably a similar example to Scorpion's but I don't know enough about Raiden's LRC to say.

When I say for conversion purposes, I mean so that you have the option to turn strings with little utility into full combos. Things like F123 would be significantly less scary if all it lead to was 13% or w/e the string does by itself without a FBRC.

 

[EMPR_MURK]

I said F12, and if people are able to visibly see your cancel then you need to tighten your shit up.

This is just a small sample of ideally what perfect FBRCs on any string should look like, even when I fucked up on the second one that's still not enough of a window for the opponent to adequately react accordingly in a real time environment.

Increasing the fireball cancel window is part of what I've suggested, so yeah lol.

And I am guilty of copy pasting over quoting. This thread is becoming a bit hard to keep up with.




Essentially yes, because 21 on hit does a little under 6% in terms of true damage.

In the case of the Raiden BNB, you're getting a higher damage combo because you're doing more stuff in the BNB lol. There's probably a similar example to Scorpion's but I don't know enough about Raiden's LRC to say.

When I say for conversion purposes, I mean so that you have the option to turn strings with little utility into full combos. Things like F123 would be significantly less scary if all it lead to was 13% or w/e the string does by itself without a FBRC.

I misread that. My apologies but even that one has a gap lol

 

[WakeUp DP]

Tom & Dave's threads are the best

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

If they increase the amount of stamina it takes for cancels then Heavy Weapons Jax would be fucked because he runs and cancels in his midscreen combos nearly using all his stamnina already

I don't mean across all characters. Just for Liu kang.

What are u implying sir?

Haha. I actually agree with you this time. These people that think it's broken are crazy.

If dash cancels cost the same amount of stamina as run cancels, would that be a step in the right direction?

I'm not saying that. Just increase stamina used for each proportionately.

I think that would be overkill. It's just the advantage that needs to be stuffed. There would be unforseen consequences all over the place--across the board. Not with just Liu

No that's what I want to keep as a kang main. I'd rather it be limited in the succession. I'd rather go for the 50/50 in a frame trap or armor break every time than f213 loops forever. Limiting stamina grants this.

 

[Scoot Magee]

I know people have been trying to explain how good this character is and nobody listened. The words must come from a well known player in order for it to be noticed. People seem to spend a lot of time on the forums bitching for nerfs and buffs yet let tons of useful information slip past them constantly.

There's already been a ton of shit nerfed in this game that could have been fine if people just played the game. Now this character still has his dirt and everyone else was nerfed.

 

[xXxNasHxXx]

As long as NRS sees this as dash cancels without touching the RUN cancels, im am 100% with nerfing his dash cancels.

I think some people are demanding for unnecessary nerfs like dragon kick mb being +2 and d3 being +1 just because they dont want to use armor move and to save their meter for other situtations whereas there own characters are having special moves that are more than +10 on block (like Kung Lao's en Hat spin). There are two things that should be nerfed:-
1. F213 fbdc should be gone and i am talking about dash cancels only.
2. Recovery of stamina should be a little more slower during mb flying kick after 2-3 f213 fbrc or f44 fbrc. So that block infinite situation doesn't occurs in future.

 

[EMPR_MURK]

I think some people are demanding for unnecessary nerfs like dragon kick mb being +2 and d3 being +1 just because they dont want to use armor move and to save their meter for other situtations whereas there own characters are having special moves that are more than +10 on block (like Kung Lao's en Hat spin). There are two things that should be nerfed:-
1. F213 fbdc should be gone and i am talking about dash cancels only.
2. Recovery of stamina should be a little more slower during mb flying kick after 2-3 f213 fbrc or f44 fbrc. So that block infinite situation doesn't occurs in future.

I can agree with this

 

[ZigZag]

Tom making this sound like it'll be easy to do during tournaments without fail... lol
Yeah sure tell me you wouldn't ha

It is a true block infinite at least for Predator, Takeda, Quan Chi because their fastest moves are 8 frames and their armor doesn't get them out. It is too slow and gets broken more times then not. Also @Tom Brady Flying kick MB is +2 on block, Liu's f2 is 10 frames, 8 frame poke wouldn't even trade because there is a frame to get out of the block animation (unless it is a reversal special). So the 7 frame poke should trade with f2 if Liu is on point.
Also 7 repetitions of f213xxDash which are guaranteed with full stamina = 2 bars of meter built, and about 20% chip done))))))
Edit: Predator can trade with his 7 frame d3)

Warrior predators armour should.. that's about it.
His EX db2 can probably just jump him to the other side of the screen in time, I haven't tested this though and tbh would fight fire with fire on this MU

 

[StealthyMuffin]

Tom making this sound like it'll be easy to do during tournaments without fail... lol

 

[ZigZag]

Now imagine being I dunno top 8 at evo and doing it lol...
imagine doing it with a crowd, imagine doing it 100% bullshit you could, it's not the highest execution i've seen in a game but it's not like FF cancel easy.

 

[Train]

Man I don't have anything against Tom, but he is acting like complete jerk (if he is not trolling)...that Liu Kang execution video and end part.. man...that's like 12 year old kid making video and raging... ya dong STOP

 

[DrFolmer]

Sonic did instant air fans or some shit resembling it with Kitana on a regular stick consistently at Evo (it sure looked like it). HoneyBee did consistently sweet run cancels. This was all at Top 8.

These are DASH cancels - you dont even have to block to execute it. Also, these are professionals, sure a first timer on a big stage would be influenced, but this doesn't look insanely difficult.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Back throws r 7 frames so technically anybody can get out

Back throws are 9 frames.

Don't spread misinformation.

??? All throws are 10f

 

[STRYKIE]

??? All throws are 10f

Apparently if you use back throw as a reversal it shaves off a frame of the regular startup.

 

[Braindead]

??? All throws are 10f

Back throw reversals are 9f and forward throw reversals are 10f.

In neutral I think both are 10 frames.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

@Tom Brady

Lets talk flow chart here cause you are obviously pushing an agenda.

Based on the pressure you posted in your video, every character in the game can armor out. Therefore, Liu Kang HAS to either block and punish, or do b12 fk mb to stay in. After b12 fk mb the opponent can also armor out again meaning LK has to either block, or b12 fk mb again.

LK can make f213 have no holes to armor by using run cancels, by doing this he gets 3 reps into b12 fkmb where the opponent gets a chance to armor out again forcing liu kang to either block and punish or use b12 fk mb yet again.

LK has no guaranteed pressure by using a dash cancel. Does he has good options? Sure but every pressure character should. Does every character in the game have a way out of this? Yes they do. (except maybe takeda or tremor but even then I'm not sure they don't have other options with their ninja jumps)

When armor is respected by liu kang, that now opens up the opponent do do pokes and/or 50/50 and/or grabs.

Liu kang dialogue with opponent:
Liu Kang - "Will my opponent armor this time? Last time I got launched for a full combo. I should either block or try to break it with b12 FK mb"
Opponent - "No DAWWWWWG, I'm not gonna armor this time...I'm just gonna grab you and throw you in the corner."
Liu Kang - "OK so i'll b12 fk mb to break your armor or you will block it and i'll be +2"
Opponent - "Ok then I'll block one more and then armor out of your next f213 after! You can't loop it forever."
Liu Kang - "Fine, you know what DAWWWG? I'll just use run cancels so there are no holes! Try armoring now!"
Opponent - "I'll just take the 3rd hit and tech roll out and be free ORRRRRR I'll just armor you after your b12 fk mb and launch you for a full combo!"

Its really not that big a deal everyone. The dash cancels are only an issue if you don't have meter and thats on YOU not liu kang. Everyone starts with a bar. It is still good...I'm not saying its not. But its not even on par with other pressure IMO that leads to full combo. Tanya, for one, may have more holes but her pressure leads to a 30% standing reset if you take the hit where liu kangs knocks you away if you take the hit.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Also...you know why people say to wait till you see it in a top 8 before you nerf it? Because no one has REALLY looked at all their options until they know they HAVE to deal with it in tournament.

Its much easier to try and get it nerfed before you have to dig into your character and try to find a solution...so the bandwagon forms. This is also the main reason why patching so much so soon is disliked by many. Its not even close to a block infinite! In fact, the title of this thread is super misleading and makes people jump to assumptions without ever testing anything. If there are characters that can't get out of his pressure, the list is SUPER DOOOPER SMALL.

 

[Derptile]

@AK L0rdoftheFLY he chose Kenshi's backdash and decided to stand block F21 bicycle kick for a reason lol.

Still I'd rather have the dash cancels be changed, I don't like them in their current state.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

@AK L0rdoftheFLY he chose Kenshi's backdash and decided to stand block F21 bicycle kick for a reason lol.

Still I'd rather have the dash cancels be changed, I don't like them in their current state.

Why should they be changed if people have a way to get out?

 

[Derptile]

Why should they be changed if people have a way to get out?

In the corner against any character if they have no meter then they're fucked, and it block infinites characters that don't have any meter and a poke faster than 8 frames. Even if they did decide to use meter, Liu can just read it and do B12 FBRC and do 35%. Making f213 FBDC +1 or 0(a less preferable option) would be the best choice.

Run cancels have always been the true craziness of Liu Kang and having DCs being nerfed wouldn't bother me.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

In the corner against any character if they have no meter then they're fucked, and it block infinites characters that don't have any meter and a poke faster than 8 frames. Even if they did decide to use meter, Liu can just read it and do B12 FBRC and do 35%. Making f213 FBDC +1 or 0(a less preferable option) would be the best choice.

Run cancels have always been the true craziness of Liu Kang and having DCs being nerfed wouldn't bother me.

I guess but they have to be

1) in the corner
and
2) have no meter

I think that is too many conditions to warrant a nerf in a game where you almost always have meter. It makes meter management important and that is a good thing imo.

 

[Derptile]

I guess but they have to be

1) in the corner
and
2) have no meter

I think that is too many conditions to warrant a nerf in a game where you almost always have meter. It makes meter management important and that is a good thing imo.

Knowing what Paulo, it'll definitely be nerfed. At this point I'm just trying to minimize the damage lol.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Knowing what Paulo, it'll definitely be nerfed. At this point I'm just trying to minimize the damage lol.

well i'm just trying to minimize the bitching. Just cause Paulo nerfed scorp doesn't mean he will nerf a completely different character with a totally different toolset.

 

[Tom Brady]

@Tom Brady

Lets talk flow chart here cause you are obviously pushing an agenda.

Based on the pressure you posted in your video, every character in the game can armor out. Therefore, Liu Kang HAS to either block and punish, or do b12 fk mb to stay in. After b12 fk mb the opponent can also armor out again meaning LK has to either block, or b12 fk mb again.

LK can make f213 have no holes to armor by using run cancels, by doing this he gets 3 reps into b12 fkmb where the opponent gets a chance to armor out again forcing liu kang to either block and punish or use b12 fk mb yet again.

LK has no guaranteed pressure by using a dash cancel. Does he has good options? Sure but every pressure character should. Does every character in the game have a way out of this? Yes they do. (except maybe takeda or tremor but even then I'm not sure they don't have other options with their ninja jumps)

When armor is respected by liu kang, that now opens up the opponent do do pokes and/or 50/50 and/or grabs.

Liu kang dialogue with opponent:
Liu Kang - "Will my opponent armor this time? Last time I got launched for a full combo. I should either block or try to break it with b12 FK mb"
Opponent - "No DAWWWWWG, I'm not gonna armor this time...I'm just gonna grab you and throw you in the corner."
Liu Kang - "OK so i'll b12 fk mb to break your armor or you will block it and i'll be +2"
Opponent - "Ok then I'll block one more and then armor out of your next f213 after! You can't loop it forever."
Liu Kang - "Fine, you know what DAWWWG? I'll just use run cancels so there are no holes! Try armoring now!"
Opponent - "I'll just take the 3rd hit and tech roll out and be free ORRRRRR I'll just armor you after your b12 fk mb and launch you for a full combo!"

Its really not that big a deal everyone. The dash cancels are only an issue if you don't have meter and thats on YOU not liu kang. Everyone starts with a bar. It is still good...I'm not saying its not. But its not even on par with other pressure IMO that leads to full combo. Tanya, for one, may have more holes but her pressure leads to a 30% standing reset if you take the hit where liu kangs knocks you away if you take the hit.

I'm not pushing any agenda, posting something that looks powerful does not somehow mean that. People didn't know just what guys like yourself were describing with Liu's block pressure so I made the video. Then people said it was ridiculously hard and super execution heavy so I tested that as well.

 

[Ares_Supreme]

I know people have been trying to explain how good this character is and nobody listened. The words must come from a well known player in order for it to be noticed. People seem to spend a lot of time on the forums bitching for nerfs and buffs yet let tons of useful information slip past them constantly.

There's already been a ton of shit nerfed in this game that could have been fine if people just played the game. Now this character still has his dirt and everyone else was nerfed.

Don't be dramatic. Liu was nerfed in almost every patch just not in the way people would have hoped. This game is still full of dirt the witch hunt has just set its eyes on Liu Kang this week. There is only one true champion of mortal kombat and that champion has returned.