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Video/Tutorial - Dragons Fire Liu Kang Pseudo block infinite explained

trufenix

bye felicia
I'm referring to cases like Kabal's dash cancel MK 9 or MK X LK, Scorp fireball cancels etc which lead to free pressure.
I don't think its fair to point the blame at "special cancels" in general. MKX has a billion others that are totally harmless. Even if Kabal lost his he would still be broken tier, and so would all the other characters who didn't rely on them to be broken.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
this wouldnt be an issue if everyone had a 6f d1. what's so game breaking about everyone having a 6f poke?
Going back to the bland MK9 counterpoking system just to appease the metagame of 1 move? Ehhh no thanks....


Lol, I wish. It sucks that as Scorpion I can escape so much BS like cassie's pokes, etc, but when I play Liu I can't escape anything.
Um.... you do realize Cassie can punish Scorpion's D1 with relative ease right? lol


You actually can escape liu pretty easily it u have meter. Ex tele away is probably his best option.
EX Teleport is only armored on wakeup.


I don't think its fair to point the blame at "special cancels" in general. MKX has a billion others that are totally harmless. Even if Kabal lost his he would still be broken tier, and so would all the other characters who didn't rely on them to be broken.
Given what the properties on Kabal's normals were by themselves that would actually be a massive blow to his game.... I'm pretty sure the NDCs were what NRS envisioned, at least in the respect of "when am I actually going to cash in with the dash" the problem was that he was plus on so many strings and had you respecting D3/F4 constantly without a penalty on his end. For the most part there is some kind of regulation behind the cancels in this game.
 

EMPR_MURK

Warrior
Going back to the bland MK9 counterpoking system just to appease the metagame of 1 move? Ehhh no thanks....



Um.... you do realize Cassie can punish Scorpion's D1 with relative ease right? lol



EX Teleport is only armored on wakeup.



Given what the properties on Kabal's normals were by themselves that would actually be a massive blow to his game.... I'm pretty sure the NDCs were what NRS envisioned, at least in the respect of "when am I actually going to cash in with the dash" the problem was that he was plus on so many strings and had you respecting D3/F4 constantly without a penalty on his end. For the most part there is some kind of regulation behind the cancels in this game.
Im talking about blocking the mb flying kick into bicycle kick. Scorpion can escape that very easily with mb teleport away...if he has meter.
 

cR Xarakamaka

Kombatant
Thn you see where im coming from. If it was that serious to me, i would have a screenshot of the messages he sent me in the private chat to show why i responded that way. If it was someone else who would have said that, i would just have trolled back (knowing how i am since im also a troll in some cases).

But for xarakamaka, its a different story so sorry not sorry. Lets stay on topic tho.

Liu is fine in terms of his design and he is an all around solid character. Just tweak the dash cancels so that we have to commit to stamina to actually get the plus frames. Everything else on him is fine imo.

People fail to realize that after the mb flying kick into bicycle kick, we HAVE to commit to b12 into some type of special depending on the character having meter. Any other option will either trade or liu will get beat out. Also b12 into any special besides a high/low fireball (i believe) can get armored out of on reaction...or if liu does b12 fbrc, that has a gap in that as well and can be poked out of.

His pressure is very mu dependant when the one on the defensive has armor.
me telling him to not bother argueing with you cos we know what your like and you turn into a baby

Xarakamaka.

My goof.

Still a pinhead.
no idea who u r and ill always stick by what i said that you can hit confirm and counter poke pokes in mk9 and same rules apply in this game too. perhaps ya shudnt bring old arguments into a new game. im not looking for a war but you obviously think im a scrub who dont know what hes on about but i dnt care . play me and then comment :) thanks . keep this to liu and refrain from insulting me for nothing
 

trufenix

bye felicia
Given what the properties on Kabal's ...
Well, I don't think any discussions on what MK9 did right or wrong is even warranted on this topic. MK9 did ALOT of things wrong. You could delete Kabal from the game, it would still be fucked.

I think what matters is that we see this LK situation for what it is, a breakdown in character design, not a breakdown in game design.
 

EMPR_MURK

Warrior
me telling him to not bother argueing with you cos we know what your like and you turn into a baby



no idea who u r and ill always stick by what i said that you can hit confirm and counter poke pokes in mk9 and same rules apply in this game too. perhaps ya shudnt bring old arguments into a new game. im not looking for a war but you obviously think im a scrub who dont know what hes on about but i dnt care . play me and then comment :) thanks . keep this to liu and refrain from insulting me for nothing
Take your own advice. I said nothing to or about u since that conversation so that comment was unnecessary so call me whatever you want for responding but i meant every word so to save this from going any further, lets just drop it.

Thanks
 
You actually can escape liu pretty easily it u have meter. Ex tele away is probably his best option.
I meant when playing as Liu Kang, sorry.

Um.... you do realize Cassie can punish Scorpion's D1 with relative ease right? lol
That wasn't my point at all. My point was that she can spam her pokes and I am forced to backdash or something because I can't counter poke her with Liu. At least not easily if it all.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
The only thing kang needs adjusted is the amount of stamina used for every cancel.

Tanya loses 1 bar of stamina for every tele cancel she does. If they increase the amount of stamina used for both run and dash cancels, the problem is only short lived and they have to be creative/spend more meter to stay plus.

Your welcome TYM
 

Arzumis

Kombatant
The only thing kang needs adjusted is the amount of stamina used for every cancel.

Tanya loses 1 bar of stamina for every tele cancel she does. If they increase the amount of stamina used for both run and dash cancels, the problem is only short lived and they have to be creative/spend more meter to stay plus.

Your welcome TYM
If they increase the amount of stamina it takes for cancels then Heavy Weapons Jax would be fucked because he runs and cancels in his midscreen combos nearly using all his stamnina already
 
The only thing kang needs adjusted is the amount of stamina used for every cancel.

Tanya loses 1 bar of stamina for every tele cancel she does. If they increase the amount of stamina used for both run and dash cancels, the problem is only short lived and they have to be creative/spend more meter to stay plus.

Your welcome TYM
If dash cancels cost the same amount of stamina as run cancels, would that be a step in the right direction?
I think that would be overkill. It's just the advantage that needs to be stuffed. There would be unforseen consequences all over the place--across the board. Not with just Liu
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Well, I don't think any discussions on what MK9 did right or wrong is even warranted on this topic. MK9 did ALOT of things wrong. You could delete Kabal from the game, it would still be fucked.

I think what matters is that we see this LK situation for what it is, a breakdown in character design, not a breakdown in game design.
You drew first blood sir.

For the record, I was essentially agreeing that there's nothing inherently wrong with cancellable special moves under as long as there's a mechanical ideology behind them. But that's a whole bunch of semantics that apply to all sorts of things FGC wide.

Im talking about blocking the mb flying kick into bicycle kick. Scorpion can escape that very easily with mb teleport away...if he has meter.
I know what you're talking about, and if you're referring to how fast the teleport leaves the screen, the regular teleport does that anyway. But in that situation you would still have to respect Kang's option to snuff you out before you leave the screen with F12 instead (which is also plus on block if FBRC'd).

If dash cancels cost the same amount of stamina as run cancels, would that be a step in the right direction?
IMO no. It would absolutely wreck A-List Cage's conversion toolset. As long as it doesn't ruin things for the other variations there's no reason why we shouldn't just regulate Dragon's Fire head on.

What exactly is this string on block by the way? standing
At least +4, and that was from an imperfect cancel when I tested it.

There's a reason we don't see lui kang in top 8. Lets take a deep breath everyone
When the apologists of this character forum are people like @Genei Jin and @Enexemander , yep, that's probably a good reason.
 
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Wrubez

The Flow Instructor
Again, get rid of dash cancel's if LK must be touched. Leave run cancels alone.

Also wouldn't mind seeing proper damage scaling for run cancel combos. This isn't just for LK.

It should be rewarding to be able to do something like

F44 xx fbc xx f44 xx fbf4(ex), njp, run, b34, f213 xx fbf4, uppercut

Shit is tough to pull off and takes hella practice but does almost no additional damage whatsoever. You can get the same amount of damage by forgoing the fbc and just doing f44 xx fbf4 etc etc...

It's looks cool as hell right now but isn't very practical. Same can be said for scorpion's fbc combos.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Again, get rid of dash cancel's if LK must be touched. Leave run cancels alone.

Also wouldn't mind seeing proper damage scaling for run cancel combos. This isn't just for LK.

It should be rewarding to be able to do something like

F44 xx fbc xx f44 xx fbf4(ex), njp, run, b34, f213 xx fbf4, uppercut

Shit is tough to pull off and takes hella practice but does almost no additional damage whatsoever. You can get the same amount of damage by forgoing the fbc and just doing f44 xx fbf4 etc etc...

It's looks cool as hell right now but isn't very practical. Same can be said for scorpion's fbc combos.
Appreciate the flattery, but the only link I find impractically difficult with Hellfire Scorpion right now is off of F4 FBRC, a normal that's not even a staple part of Scorpion's game. This is not good justification.

Damage scaling from special cancel links all depends on the damage of the normal/string you used beforehand, by the way. The run cancels on hit come into play for conversion purposes, not extra damage. Generally you will only do more damage if you did 7% or more to start with.

For example, do F12xxFBRC into the 113 BNB and then start it with 112xxFBRC instead, you'll see what I mean.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
I don't think its fair to point the blame at "special cancels" in general. MKX has a billion others that are totally harmless. Even if Kabal lost his he would still be broken tier, and so would all the other characters who didn't rely on them to be broken.
True that's why I said not all of them like in Ermac's case(yes I do use him but he also doesn't have one in eithe r MK 9 or MK X since it's so slow) I'm just saying that if the game was made without those moves or option to cancel out the fireballs, this would not even be an issue. Oh he'd still be good, but not nearly as bad. He wouldn't be able to keep that instant block cancel dash pressure if that wasn't in the game(ability to dash cancel) well in MK 9 it was all Kabal, KL, Kenshi etc in this regard MK X is more balanced, I just hate things that are broken in general be it a glitch, cancel block string etc whatever. NRS has to know about this though, so we'll see if they plan on patching it or not.
 

EMPR_MURK

Warrior
You drew first blood sir.

For the record, I was essentially agreeing that there's nothing inherently wrong with cancellable special moves under as long as there's a mechanical ideology behind them. But that's a whole bunch of semantics that apply to all sorts of things FGC wide.


I know what you're talking about, and if you're referring to how fast the teleport leaves the screen, the regular teleport does that anyway. But in that situation you would still have to respect Kang's option to snuff you out before you leave the screen with F12 instead (which is also plus on block if FBRC'd).


IMO no. It would absolutely wreck A-List Cage's conversion toolset. As long as it doesn't ruin things for the other variations there's no reason why we shouldn't just regulate Dragon's Fire head on.


At least +4, and that was from an imperfect cancel when I tested it.


When the apologists of this character forum are people like @Genei Jin and @Enexemander , yep, that's probably a good reason.
F21 fbrc is one the most exploited fake cancels liu has. The scorpion player can easily react to that and full combo punish. Its really a give n go situation but if scorpion has meter, on paper, he is in the winning situation.
 

Sage Leviathan

I'm platinum mad!
@STRYKIE
Yeah, thought it'd be a bad idea. Maybe just edit the frame data on that particular fireball? Dualist and Flame Fist really profit from f213's cancel advantage.

...also, did you just quote me without orange text? u wan fite me irl dude?
 

Wrubez

The Flow Instructor
Appreciate the flattery, but the only link I find impractically difficult with Hellfire Scorpion right now is off of F4 FBRC, a normal that's not even a staple part of Scorpion's game. This is not good justification.

Damage scaling from special cancel links all depends on the damage of the normal/string you used beforehand, by the way. The run cancels on hit come into play for conversion purposes, not extra damage. Generally you will only do more damage if you did 7% or more to start with.

For example, do F12xxFBRC into the 113 BNB and then start it with 112xxFBRC instead, you'll see what I mean.
For Scorpion I was mainly referring to something like 21 xx fbc xx 214 etc etc does pretty much the same damage as his 214 xx tele BnB. Does that fall under the less than 7 rule I guess? Honest question.

And I think I had someone like Raiden in mind where his LRC's are key to high damage. For example don't you get higher damage with raiden's 214 xx ex shocker, NJP, run, b14 xx LRC, 214 xx superman than forgoing the run cancel and doing b14 superman?

I always thought it was a way to continue your combo into higher damage. What do you mean by more for conversion than damage? Couldn't I convert LK's f44 xx fbf4 BnB much easier than f44 xx fbc xx fbf4?