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Let's Talk About Catwoman's Meta

Captain Oxygen

The end of one combo is the beginning of another
dude i try to punish catdash but like it's gotta be plus or something because i can't punish it wtfffff catwoman is so brok- good very good mhmm
 
I simple answear to your question is that catwoman is a great character. She has the tools to keep up but other characters have BETTER tools.

Because they have better tools she's considered shit because she needs to work harder.

I don't consider her top nor bottom but right dap in the middle. She wasn't giving nonsense movesets or has a shit moveset (minus the walk speed) she really is a well rounded character IMO. Just other characters have better tools
 

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
If people want to see the blueprint for how to beat catwoman, watch my set with 16Bit from wcw.
 

RM NoBrows

Supah hawt fiyah
Heres what I notice that people still aren't doing.

GUYS f112 f11 b12 and b12d3 are - on block. POKE OUT! the only one that's plus is f1. I can yolo cancel into an evade to be counter pokes but lbsh

I know its hard. But back dashing afterj2 kills mme. Practice it.

B3 is - on block. Find ways to take advantage of it. Be careful though. If I have meter. Her armor on mb f3 comes out faster than any other f3/b3.

Stay outside of her b3 range. And the only thing she can do is low whip (unsafe) catdash(unsafe) j2( semi unsafe, depends on who makes the right reads). This makes sinestro so hard.

When people start taking advantage of it it's going to be hard for selina.

What's good about her.
Her 50/50 is arguably one of the best. I know I said this was bad. But her staggers are viable but to an extent.

Her oki is pretty good.

Zoning doesn't really bother her.

Jump back 2 and b3 can be pretty broke if you don't know.



But the things about those good tools is that they exploitable

But like any character if you take advantage of their weakness it will make it hard for them.
They are negative on block but it's still not punishable. If they try to poke after that, block their poke and it leaves you at advantage for a poke. If her poke hits them, it gives her a free 50/50 minx up against most of the cast, except NW and skunquaman
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
@CrimsonShadow
Catwoman is a bad character. She is not bottom 5, but could definitely be as low as bottom 10. Her primary problem is her terrible mobility. Because she has a bad walk speed (one of the worst in the game) she is forced take risks with dash ins, jumps, and cat dash. Her primary tool to get in, jp 2, does not lead to a mixup because most characters can walk out of the low if they just hold back. So she is stuck with staying committed to F1 with no mixup. Her footsies have to be REALLY on point in order for her to get mixups and in a lot of cases she can only get them when the opponent is cornered or knocked down. Characters with good wakeups further hurt her games because SHE is forced to guess. Her other tool to close distance, B3, is negative on block and EXTREMELY negative on whiff.

Bit is doing well both because his footsies are very strong and because people are terrified of Catwoman. Look into her before you start talking about how good she is.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Look into her before you start talking about how good she is.
Hey Wound -- that's actually of the point of this thread. Notice I didn't say "Catwoman is an amazing character"; I only listed the things that are happening in tournament, item by item according to what's actually getting her the damage. Then I asked for open opinions on how people can reduce her to the lower-level threat she's supposed to be.

In any case, thanks for the insights.. Based on what you say, it seems like one of the primary issues is that people aren't correctly responding to her jump-ins in the meta. For example, after having almost every d2 and even some of his Sword Flips stuffed by j1 and j2, Hippo never switched to using armored b3 against CW's jump-ins. I don't know if it's because he wanted to conserve meter for something else, but getting stuffed out of every AA for full combo is probably what ultimately cost him the set.

As far as mixups in the neutral.. It seems they are constantly overrated in Injustice. For example the primary justification for AM not being absolute top some months ago was that he has "no mixups". In reality, some of the dominant characters are strong because they control space in a game where movement is unsafe. So if you have to move, a normal like f1 that both attacks and moves CW forward is a problem for characters that are attempting to move into the space where they can attack her. Once Bit is in your face even after a blocked f1, he's free to stagger strings, check you with d1 into a possible full combo if you attempt to hit a button or move, armored f3 even when she's slightly negative, etc.

Aside from the vortex, that's one of the things that also makes Sinestro dangerous -- his control of space and ability to hit you out of movement (and of course, even more so when traited) becomes the "mixup".

In any case, thanks again; I welcome any and all discussion, as it's interesting to me and it's the reason I opened this thread. Not to make accusations, just to learn.
 
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cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
Hey Wound -- that's actually of the point of this thread. Notice I didn't say "Catwoman is an amazing character"; I only listed the things that are happening in tournament, item by item according to what's actually getting her the damage. Then I asked for open opinions on how people can reduce her to the lower-level threat she's supposed to be.

In any case, thanks for the insights.. Based on what you say, it seems like one of the primary issues is that people aren't correctly responding to her jump-ins in the meta. For example, after having almost every d2 and even some of his Sword Flips stuffed by j1 and j2, Hippo never switched to using armored b3 against CW's jump-ins. I don't know if it's because he wanted to conserve meter for something else, but getting stuffed out of every AA for full combo is probably what ultimately cost him the set.

As far as mixups in the neutral.. It seems they are constantly overrated in Injustice. For example the primary justification for AM not being absolute top some months ago was that he has "no mixups". In reality, some of the dominant characters are strong because they control space in a game where movement is unsafe. So if you have to move, a normal like f1 that both attacks and moves CW forward is a problem for characters that are attempting to move into the space where they can attack her. Once Bit is in your face even after a blocked f1, he's free to stagger strings, check you with d1 into a possible full combo if you attempt to hit a button or move, armored f3 even when she's slightly negative, etc.

Aside from the vortex, that's one of the things that also seems to make Sinestro dangerous -- his control of space and ability to hit you out of movement (and of course, even more so when traited) becomes the "mixup".

In any case, thanks again; I welcome any and all discussion, as it's interesting to me and it's the reason I opened this thread. Not to make accusations, just to learn.
The difference is that most characters are forced to approach Sinestro on his terms. Catwoman has to approach most MUs on the other side of that coin; her opponent runs away and she has to get in. B12 is used to check movement. Catwoman's F1 does not get her anything against most characters on block (most walk out of a D1) so it doesn't really get her in or check movement. She has no way of getting in without taking big risks.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
The difference is that most characters are forced to approach Sinestro on his terms. Catwoman has to approach most MUs on the other side of that coin; her opponent runs away and she has to get in. B12 is used to check movement. Catwoman's F1 does not get her anything against most characters on block (most walk out of a D1) so it doesn't really get her in or check movement. She has no way of getting in without taking big risks.
Ok.

So that's definitely true of getting in past zoning. And maybe getting past some of the better/rangier footsie tools as well. But once she's in footsie range of a lot of characters, they have to safely "get in" to a range where they can hit her.. And when CW is crouching and waiting to d1~interrupt for full combo plus a mixup on wakeup, or waiting to f1 at a range where you can't easily reach her with a normal, it's still a problem for a lot of characters (or at least it has been, in almost every recent tournament to this point).

F1 might not get her anything, but it's also not very negative and having to respect d1~claws and armored f3 means you can't always immediately pressure her afterwards.
 

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
NetherRealm Studios
The way her jump 1 was beating DS d+2 is only with specific spacing and timing. She can do the same thing to similar d+2 like Flash's d+2. Most of the downwards pointy jump 1's can do this. To beat it he has multiple options but the best is preemptive jump 1. Hippo wasn't challenging me in that air battle.

This thread is a strawman. Who is calling Catwoman horrible or Dan Hibiki(except me when I'm salty). My consistent stance is that she is...ok. That group of bottom 10 characters like her, Hawkgirl, Green Arrow, Grundy, Nightwing and Shazam are all viable to place top 8. I don't know how many times I have to say that shitters in this game are not the same as MK.

The top players who understand how her footsies work give me problems and are the basis for my opinions on her matchups. Real talk...Wound Cowboy's Black Adam is significantly better in the matchup than any Black Adam main. Guys like PPJ and Saucy Jack can pick up a character and do better against me than a main for that character. I'm sorry Superman players can't lab the b+3 vs. f+2 meta or figure out how to whiff punish a b+3 when it's been posted about and played on stream. There's a million examples of this. The majority of the community is stuck on meta 1 against this character.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
The top players who understand how her footsies work give me problems and are the basis for my opinions on her matchups. Real talk...Wound Cowboy's Black Adam is significantly better in the matchup than any Black Adam main. Guys like PPJ and Saucy Jack can pick up a character and do better against me than a main for that character. I'm sorry Superman players can't lab the b+3 vs. f+2 meta or figure out how to whiff punish a b+3 when it's been posted about and played on stream. There's a million examples of this. The majority of the community is stuck on meta 1 against this character.
I hear you, and that was definitely the intention behind starting this thread.
 

juicepouch

blink-182 enthusiast
I often see CW players complaining that her walkspeed is what makes her so difficult to win with in her bad MUs. Does that mean that if she got a buffed walk speed she would become broken, or simply high tier?
 

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
NetherRealm Studios
I often see CW players complaining that her walkspeed is what makes her so difficult to win with in her bad MUs. Does that mean that if she got a buffed walk speed she would become broken, or simply high tier?

It wouldn't make her broken. She is very complete though, so a few buffs would have her go way up in the tier list.

She could do a lot better with her walk speed if Low Whip wasn't so crappy. By design that is her tool to stop people from walking back and it's ass. I actually don't mind her walk speed without context. I would be fine with it if her compensation tools were a bit better.
 

Rodrigue

Spongerod
It wouldn't make her broken. She is very complete though, so a few buffs would have her go way up in the tier list.

She could do a lot better with her walk speed if Low Whip wasn't so crappy. By design that is her tool to stop people from walking back and it's ass. I actually don't mind her walk speed without context. I would be fine with it if her compensation tools were a bit better.
I'd trade all that for a decent wake-up or armor on wake-up catdash. That would make her broken imo.
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
Ok.

So that's definitely true of getting in past zoning. And maybe getting past some of the better/rangier footsie tools as well. But once she's in footsie range of a lot of characters, they have to safely "get in" to a range where they can hit her.. And when CW is crouching and waiting to d1~interrupt for full combo plus a mixup on wakeup, or waiting to f1 at a range where you can't easily reach her with a normal, it's still a problem for a lot of characters (or at least it has been, in almost every recent tournament to this point).

F1 might not get her anything, but it's also not very negative and having to respect d1~claws and armored f3 means you can't always immediately pressure her afterwards.
But you don't have to respect her D1: it's not in range after F1 is blocked because they walk back. It is true that against characters who have to approach her, she does pretty well (Flash, Wonder Woman, Scorpion), but the reality is that she does not get to dictate space agaisnt most of the cast because she has to chase them down.
 

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
NetherRealm Studios
I'd trade all that for a decent wake-up or armor on wake-up catdash. That would make her broken imo.

Fully invincible wakeup would be huge because it'd probably turn many of her 4-6 into 5-5. She would still lose the bad footsies matches like Aqua and Sinestro though.
 

Rodrigue

Spongerod
Fully invincible wakeup would be huge because it'd probably turn many of her 4-6 into 5-5. She would still lose the bad footsies matches like Aqua and Sinestro though.
Aqua, Sinestro and Bane are her only really tough MUs, almost impossible tbh. Other 6-4s are really not as bad as they seem, even Doomsday and Lex.
 

Ecodus

I ain't got time to bleed.
Fully invincible wakeup would be huge because it'd probably turn many of her 4-6 into 5-5. She would still lose the bad footsies matches like Aqua and Sinestro though.
Id take low whip to be like Lobo's on block over having, lets say catdash, be fully invincible.
 

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
NetherRealm Studios
Aqua, Sinestro and Bane are her only really tough MUs, almost impossible tbh. Other 6-4s are really not as bad as they seem, even Doomsday and Lex.

The problem is when you have a bunch of these 4-6 and beat almost no one you're going to have a relatively poor MU chart and be in the bottom 10 conversation.
 

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
NetherRealm Studios
Id take low whip to be like Lobo's on block over having, lets say catdash, be fully invincible.

I think I would too. It's close though. What would be a better buff...improved low whip vs. fully invincible wakeup is a common topic at Tony's. :coffee: