Let's Talk About Catwoman's Meta

[CrimsonShadow]

You don't get it because you're not out here at tournaments playing short, offline sets with top players.

No, trust me I hear you 100% -- I just didn't want the thread to devolve into mudslinging. If it gets to the point where it's just firing heated shots over resume, we won't be able to discuss the gameplay issues in a logical/balanced way.

 

[xWildx]

Catwoman has Mileena syndrome. That's pretty much my stance on this.

 

[EMPEROR_THEO]

The ability to stuff wakeups isn't character-based, it's based on a wakeup's frames in which you can stuff it. Jokers ability to stuff wakeups is just as threatening as Catwomans, if he stuffs it at the correct frame(s).

 

[Vengeance135]

The ability to stuff wakeups isn't character-based, it's bissed on a wakeup's frames in which you can stuff it. Jokers ability to stuff wakeups is just as threatening as Catwomans, if he stuffs it at the correct frame(s).

Now besides teeth, what does Joker have that can consistently stuff wakeups? I might be missing something besides his otg. Btw Joker trying to wakeup on CW is legit a lost cause. Hell her B3 goes under and through his acid wakeup and all her strings either can stuff Jokers wakeups consistently or go under them lol

 

[KC H0oKsw0rds]

Well no one is really giving any specific topics so I'll share my experience with things I struggle with in the MU/tools game.
CW and wakeups.
When it comes down do it, she has 2 options if she has trait. Both have risks attached to them. You can wake up with trait but a player can make a hot read and neutral jump it all day. The way around this is to commit to a mb CD or CD on WU. I think other players should be testing us CW players at least once a match with a njk. Nothing gets to me more than a player that njs my wake up trait be cause it means they know my options when I'm on the ground and I have to consider doing something even more risky ie a CD. Also, most chars HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE with a njk, what is CW gonna do? D2 you? I have a 50 50 shot of getting up. If I trait, jump me and death, block a CD? It's death.

Once you get CW afraid to wake up you can start taking advantage of those superior footsie tools. GL, Sin, Aqua, Raven, SM can all knock you down back up to sweep distance and freely oki you and there's nothing you can do. F1 gets stuffed, d1s get WPed.

Walk speed
I get bodied mostly by people that understand they can out space CW by walk back and forcing her to dash up or commit to yolo j2s and b3s. Her dash is so slow I feel like chars like AM Sin and MMH can just throw out pokes whenever they want. Yes I know I can whiff punish with njk, b3 or CD but, this is yet another case of forcing CW to take a risk and commit. People get hit with one lucky b3/j2 and think WOW wtf?! CWs b3/j2 is broke af! When they could've just walked back a half second longer and boom free whiff punish.

Jb2 is gawdlike tho...

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Now besides teeth, what does Joker have that can consistently stuff wakeups? I might be missing something besides his otg. Btw Joker trying to wakeup on CW is legit a lost cause. Hell her B3 goes under and through his acid wakeup and all her strings either can stuff Jokers wakeups consistently or go under them lol

Stuffing wake ups is something universal.

 

[Shaazzyam]

Now besides teeth, what does Joker have that can consistently stuff wakeups? I might be missing something besides his otg. Btw Joker trying to wakeup on CW is legit a lost cause. Hell her B3 goes under and through his acid wakeup and all her strings either can stuff Jokers wakeups consistently or go under them lol

Technically anything, you would just have to hit them in their vulnerable frames.

Well no one is really giving any specific topics so I'll share my experience with things I struggle with in the MU/tools game.
CW and wakeups.
When it comes down do it, she has 2 options if she has trait. Both have risks attached to them. You can wake up with trait but a player can make a hot read and neutral jump it all day. The way around this is to commit to a mb CD or CD on WU. I think other players should be testing us CW players at least once a match with a njk. Nothing gets to me more than a player that njs my wake up trait be cause it means they know my options when I'm on the ground and I have to consider doing something even more risky ie a CD. Also, most chars HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE with a njk, what is CW gonna do? D2 you? I have a 50 50 shot of getting up. If I trait, jump me and death, block a CD? It's death.

Once you get CW afraid to wake up you can start taking advantage of those superior footsie tools. GL, Sin, Aqua, Raven, SM can all knock you down back up to sweep distance and freely oki you and there's nothing you can do. F1 gets stuffed, d1s get WPed.

Walk speed
I get bodied mostly by people that understand they can out space CW by walk back and forcing her to dash up or commit to yolo j2s and b3s. Her dash is so slow I feel like chars like AM Sin and MMH can just throw out pokes whenever they want. Yes I know I can whiff punish with njk, b3 or CD but, this is yet another case of forcing CW to take a risk and commit. People get hit with one lucky b3/j2 and think WOW wtf?! CWs b3/j2 is broke af! When they could've just walked back a half second longer and boom free whiff punish.

Jb2 is gawdlike tho...

Yeah, but...What if you just block on KD?

 

[KC H0oKsw0rds]

And just give up on wake ups altogether? Ok fine. Would you say that's advantageous or disadvantageous for CW? Were talking about what or what doesnt make CW a good char. We're also talking about what other players can do against CW to defeat her at the highest level. If blocking is so easy, why don't you give up your force palm and half screen hitbox safe over head teleport wake ups for a few games and see how you do against say flash?

 

[Vengeance135]

Stuffing wake ups is something universal.

The best way to stuff wakeups is with something fast and active. Jokers normals are, for the most part, terrible. He can just walk up to a character like catwoman and obliterate he wakeup with a string or normal. If he can please share this information because i've labbing over a year and the most I can do is stuff shitty wakeups like Aquamans lol my point to this is if Joker gets knocked down by Catwoman he has to guess right every time because wakeups aren't an option to him in the MU.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Crimsonshadow confirmed my hidey account!?

 

[PPJ]

that bitch is broken under the current tournament meta.
most majors will have a shit ton of martians,zods,batmans,black adams other top characters.
she happens to do well with the top characters that the majority of the people use.
not many people go even with martian and zod.
her only true problem is aquaman.
the opposite happens with raven, she is shit under the current tournament meta.
doomsdays in every fucking pool....smh

noooooooooooooo sir

 

[MisguidedAngel]

Is anything in the English language misused by nerds more than the prefix "meta"?

 

[THTB]

There's things players still don't do vs her jump ins, that would eventually drive Bit up a wall when he has to deal with everyone knowing, but other than that, she's not bad, just low tier. Outside of Bane and Aquaman, she does fine vs top tiers.

 

[DarksydeDash]

A little off topic but.. One of her most debated match ups is Superman. Many players of Selina, including Bit, say she loses 6-4 cause she gets zoned out. On, the other hand she has a terrifying threat in her MB cat dash and she can easily evade all versions of lasers on reaction even with Supe's trait active. The counter argument is the evade can be baited when in reality, you can easily react to a glowing beam traveling across the ground or hear Supes's grunts he makes for heat zaps, no excuses. Her b3 goes under every option off f23 breath pressure and her hitbox makes it near impossible to whiff punish. Combine this with her ability to stuff most wakeups like other characters and a frightening OKI game, she is definitely not "a shitter." I honestly think people downplay her too much and say she is a good character; Bit makes her look better than good.. Of course she has flaws, bad matchups but most non-top tiers do.

 

[RM NoBrows]

Her meta game IMO is middle of the road. I don't buy it when people say she's low tier, she's bad, etc. She has all the tools there to compete with most of the cast.

IMO, you have to have great patience and reaction times to be good with her. I think her game lies in her punishing her opponent and her HKD game.

Her b3 is among the best in the game. It makes a great deal of moves whiff, including a few overheads. It covers a good amount of space. Great for punishing jumps/dashes on read.

Her f3 is also very good tool. You can argue she has the best b3 and f3 duo for a character. MB f3 gets her out of a lot of sticky situations

Her f1 is a very good footsies tool. Great for punishing whiffs. In certain situations, it can be used to cross up opponents and reverse wakeups. Now if it wasn't an overhead like pre patch, I'd buy that she's not good.

Her j2 might be the best in the game. Great for hitting opponents out of interactables. Covers a great distance and can be used to stuff a lot of wakeups. In certain situations, it's completely safe. And she's the only character that I know of that can b3 after an air to air 2.

Cat dash, now this one is tricky. This is one of her moves that she cannot use alot. It's great for punishing zoning characters (other than sinestro and DS) on read. Good tool for punishing your opponent when they're down on health and trying to get in. Can be used to punish certain specials. It is very unsafe so use sparingly.

She does have a few match ups that are a major pain in the ass, but are still winnable with PATIENCE and punishing on read

 

[Shaazzyam]

And just give up on wake ups altogether? Ok fine. Would you say that's advantageous or disadvantageous for CW? Were talking about what or what doesnt make CW a good char. We're also talking about what other players can do against CW to defeat her at the highest level. If blocking is so easy, why don't you give up your force palm and half screen hitbox safe over head teleport wake ups for a few games and see how you do against say flash?

You know plenty of characters can punish Martian's wakeup push? Wakeups aren't get out of jail free cards. Sometimes you just gotta block, breh

 

[Shaazzyam]

Well yes but a 33/33/33 is much better than a 50/50.

Stop trying to change the subject. We all know this thread is secretly about Crimson agreeing with me that NW-CW is 5-5. (In fact, if you consider NW's design just as a character, completely unrelated of CW's tools, you already kinda lost by picking him in any mu in general. NRS 10-0 NW. But that's neither here or there.)

Now, if you would just admit that I'm sure we could all move on from your illuminati downplaying or whatevs.

 

[DreadKnight1]

She's definitely nowhere near bottom 5, more along the lines of 15-25.

 

[coolwhip]

Is the question here about tools or match-ups? (I refuse to use the word meta because most have no idea what that even means) If it's the former, it's not really debatable. Catwoman HAS some of the "necessary" tools to be competitive in Injustice: great air game, jump ins, 50/50's, damage, oki, low hitbox, etc... I'm strictly mentioning her strengths here, because while she does have weaknesses, the tools she has are enough to compensate and make her competitive. Now if we're talking match-ups, it's a different issue, because then you HAVE to mention her weaknesses and how they sway certain match-ups. So it's easy to say F1 is a good footsie tool (it is), but in certain match-ups, you have to link that directly to her poor walk-speed in the footsie game (tools don't exist independent of each other and most are interrelated), and then it becomes a different issue.

Ultimately, here's the question to Catwoman downplayers: Do you deny that she has the tools to compete? I've honestly not seen anyone do that though, in fairness.

But, to the Catwoman up-players, how good do you think she is, based on her match-ups? Like for example, Wonder Chef will shit on Injustice and the amount of tournament viable characters (or lack thereof, in his estimation). He talks about how only a handful of characters have a chance...yet he really talks up Catwoman and criticizes the downplayers, which is fair enough. But, by that logic, wouldn't that make her among the best characters in Injustice? The ones who can actually compete? Since they are allegedly so few I mean. So that makes Catwoman...a top tier character? Yeah, I'll go ahead and call BS on that one.

So the question for the up-players is, please name how many characters is she better than (and hopefully some match-up evidence to support it). Because if there are 15 characters better than she is, then how good is she, really? Remember, it's all relative. As a character, you're compared to other characters in the game. It's not just about tools (which Catwoman possesses to an extent). Because it's really easy to make a thread with a similar OP naming pretty much most characters' tools in the game, and go "hey, how is he that bad?"

 

[Dizzy]

16 Bit is good, but he's doing much better than he would be if he were using a real mid tier character like Superman, who doesn't have mix ups

Yeah, there's no way that fool could win with a character based on space control with allegedly "no mixups".

 

[RM Jonnitti]

i feel like the term meta is severely misused i the title. however, after being here for a while, i realized that nrs community has different definitions for terms that have been defined by previous fighting game players for 20+ years.

 

[coolwhip]

Come on. Theo dropped Superman, KDZ's been telling us about the characters problems for ages, and Slayer makes no secret about how much he struggles in many match ups. Theo won't even counter pick Doomsday with Superman anymore, and even Dab and Slayer won't go all Superman.
Superman loses to the top tiers like Aquaman and MMH and even struggles with "low tier" characters with Catwoman.

It's over, the character's not top. All the evidence says so

10/10 for a pretty good troll job (especially your initial post in this thread). You can always tell a troll job's quality by whether it gets "likes" from those who actually agree with the post without realizing it's a troll job.

 

[chemist4hire]

Catwoman has bad walk speed and no good mid range options that are safe. If opponents keep her at mid range she is either forced to jump, dash or low whip, all of these options are punishable on reaction if the opponents stays at mid range or further. On knockdown, if she does not have trait, you can maul her as long as you don't lead with a jump in.

Most people who lose to cat woman lose because they try to get in when they shouldn't and then guess wrong on her HKD.

If you turtle cat woman and punish her attempts to get in via ground or sky, you win. Problem is most people don't like to turtle in this game.

 

[Phosferrax]

Listing what good tools she has doesn't make a difference; if you're trying to determine how good she is then you have to talk about her MU's, which are are mostly agreed upon in the CW forums.

 

[Phosferrax]

16 Bit is good, but he's doing much better than he would be if he were using a real mid tier character like Superman, who doesn't have mix ups

Hope this is a troll, or this is some of the stupidest shit I've read on TYM.