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Let's Talk About Catwoman's Meta

Ra Helios

Ra Helios

Omnipotent God-like Selina Kyle Player
EMPEROR_SunFire said:
She is definitely a good character, but there are a shit ton of other characters better than her match up and tool wise tbh... I think she is definitely a low tier character THAT can compete... But someone needs to be bottom tier and Catwoman is worse than a lot of characters (being low tier in this game doesn't make a character bad)... Also F1 is not a "super" footsie tool TBH, but it's one of her better tools... Idk about her match ups but from what I know... bane, Aquaman, Sinestro and Lex beat her baad...
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She is high mid and very difficult to win with. Basically you have to outsmart other players with her. Yes she does have flaws but as a CatWoman main. She is high mid tier.

She has one of the best best corner that can lead to tone of mix up options, cross up and damage up to 40% and more. It's great especially when catwoman is probably one of the best character to push people in the corner easily.

Her midscreen game can lead to 46% all the way up to 54% with 1 meter.

Her bj2 is really good for people that jumping towards you with a j1,j2 or j3.

Her hkd game is pretty good as well but sometimes it is a guessing game for catwoman players because characters with invisible wake ups can easily punish her.

Her mobility speed is terrible so what I do is build meter by doing fake Catdash.

Her b3 is the best b3 in the game. Go under certain characters move and punish them. Smashing mb b3 is a good way to punish people.

F3 f3 is a amazing tool for unclashable damage.

I'm not sure if it me as a player but CatWoman has a Huge combat factor. Which make this character really good

This character has a lot of gimmicks so I use that to my advantage.

I don't downplay my character. I find tech and gimmicks to make my character better. If I lose learn from it and play smarter. Bad Mu I depend on a lot of gimmicks.



I mean, its really up to the player to use her at her highest peak and use her tools to out smart players because again she is hard to win with. At the highest level she is high mid


People just sleeping on her. I mean 16bit myself and starcharger are the only catwoman players that plays her at the highest level of play. Me and star charger plays online and 16bit is only representing her. If it wasn't for my personal belief I would show people why she is mid high tier and what she can really do.


I personal think catwoman is good in the tournament scene by going to first to 3 or 2 in my opinion
 
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Ra Helios

Ra Helios

Omnipotent God-like Selina Kyle Player
CrimsonShadow said:
I don't expect him to tell everyone how to beat his character (I definitely wouldn't if it were me). But for anyone else that has insights into the situation, it'd be great to start discussing things in detail instead of generalities.

There's too much "Well she's just bad and loses matchups" and not enough "Here's specifically what people need to be doing against her to render her tools ineffective, but aren't".
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That's true. Don't like doing that
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
This is exactly why I was devastated to not come to EVO. Look at how you people are acting when a great player plays a character than noone thnks to do their homework on.

Catwoman, IMO, is mid tier and is pretty viable outside of some matchups. Just like Joker.

Main reason I wanted to come is because I knew this community would never consider such a "low tier" character a threat, granting me an easy as hell acceptable placing by not actually studying the matchup.

Bit is a great player using a character who is good but has some glaring faults. Despite those faults, it's exactly what Slips said about Scorpion back in 2012; "Scorpion may be low tier but he has 50-50s, very few character can be as shitty as him yet always able to turn it around if you guess right on 50-50s." Obviously paraphrased but you get the point.
 
astronout

astronout

see you at the top.
Bit's MU Chart
My personal changes

The Flash: 5-5
Nightwing: 4-6
Batman: 5-5
Cyborg: 6-4
Green Arrow: 5-5
Superman: 5-5
Martian Manhunter: 4-6
Raven: 5-5
Aquaman: 3-7
Wonder Woman: 4-6
Zatanna: 5-5
Hawkgirl: 5-5
Shazam: 5-5
Green Lantern: 4-6
Batgirl: 4-6
Lobo: 5-5
Joker: 5-5
Harley Quinn: 4-6
Solomon Grundy: 5-5
Zod: 4-6
Lex Luthor: 3-7
Deathstroke: 4-6
Scorpion: 6-4
Ares: 6-4
Killer Frost: 4-6
Doomsday: 4-6
Sinestro: 3-7
Black Adam: 5-5
Bane: 3-7
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Winning: 3
Losing: 14
Even: 12

Catwoman has 14 losing matchups which is why she is mid tier at best
What makes her strong in the tournament scene is that she does relatively well against those who are considered to be in the top 10.
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
AVN PTH jonnitti said:
i feel like the term meta is severely misused i the title. however, after being here for a while, i realized that nrs community has different definitions for terms that have been defined by previous fighting game players for 20+ years.
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The definition of metagame here is no different than it's been for the last 20 years. Maybe you're misunderstanding what the thread is about.

You can see my definition here: http://testyourmight.com/threads/what-does-metagame-mean-to-you.42532/#post-1334048
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Btw just to clarify again, this thread isn't about tier placement. More about how her matches play out in practice, the decisions people make against her; and whether there is something people have all missed in terms of approach to fighting her vs. her being a more effective tournament character than she gets credit for.

Couldn't care less about the tier list here or anyone's personal vendettas, just wanted to talk about the specifics of fighting her: decisions, strategy/overall approach, use of her tools vs. tactics to nullify them, etc.
 
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chemist4hire

chemist4hire

I Got Guiled
Also, while catwoman's jump 2 is good, many people don't spend the meter to punish it or get out of the pressure it can lead too. If your anti air does not work against catwoman's jump 2, you should use a MB B/F 3 to absorb the hit and punish/backdash escape to reestablish the midrange. You do this enough, you will limit her options even further, making your reads much easier and increase your chance of winning. She is not a grappler, but you should approach her as one. Keep her out, stuff her attempts to get in and if you get close, get the hell out.
 
Phosferrax

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
When most are still not executing something as fundamental as their spacing properly against CW there really isn't point in asking this question. I'm sure 16 Bit would still say that people still don't do things against CW's antics that he is aware of.
 
Justice

Justice

Warrior
About the most apt description I can come up with is that Selina is the most honest character in a very dishonest game. Put her in a lot of other games and she'd be godlike.

The problem with Catwoman is that she's a pretty one-dimensional character that needs to play every matchup differently. The player must rely more on knowledge of game mechanics, matchup knowledge and player reads more than most of the cast.
 
HeroesNZ

HeroesNZ

Baconlord's Billionaire Sugar Daddy
In my opinion, a character with safe 50/50s into good damage, half-decent mid-range tools, a fullscreen launcher when MB'd that can also be used to bait things such as a MB B3 with the non-MB, a top 10 corner game, great unclashable damage, and great oki could never be low-tier. I'm deliberately leaving out the negative points because if you compare this with characters that are definitely low-tier such as Cyborg, you'd find that Catwoman's advantages are a lot more plentiful.

Qwark28 said:
This is exactly why I was devastated to not come to EVO. Look at how you people are acting when a great player plays a character than noone thnks to do their homework on.

Catwoman, IMO, is mid tier and is pretty viable outside of some matchups. Just like Joker.

Main reason I wanted to come is because I knew this community would never consider such a "low tier" character a threat, granting me an easy as hell acceptable placing by not actually studying the matchup.

Bit is a great player using a character who is good but has some glaring faults. Despite those faults, it's exactly what Slips said about Scorpion back in 2012; "Scorpion may be low tier but he has 50-50s, very few character can be as shitty as him yet always able to turn it around if you guess right on 50-50s." Obviously paraphrased but you get the point.
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I've never agreed with a comment so much in my entire life. Thank you, Based Qwark.
 
rev0lver

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
imo, catwoman's matchup chart itself isn't that good, but she has the tools to beat *most* of her bad matchups at a high level with the right reads on things like her mb b3 to get in. she's pretty good overall, but it doesn't mean she doesn't get outfootsied a lot and fucked by armor characters. it comes down to being able to make the right reads in mostly unfavorable situations, which is why 16bit finds success where others don't.
 
Laos_boy

Laos_boy

Meow Hoes
Heres what I notice that people still aren't doing.

GUYS f112 f11 b12 and b12d3 are - on block. POKE OUT! the only one that's plus is f1. I can yolo cancel into an evade to be counter pokes but lbsh

I know its hard. But back dashing afterj2 kills mme. Practice it.

B3 is - on block. Find ways to take advantage of it. Be careful though. If I have meter. Her armor on mb f3 comes out faster than any other f3/b3.

Stay outside of her b3 range. And the only thing she can do is low whip (unsafe) catdash(unsafe) j2( semi unsafe, depends on who makes the right reads). This makes sinestro so hard.

When people start taking advantage of it it's going to be hard for selina.

What's good about her.
Her 50/50 is arguably one of the best. I know I said this was bad. But her staggers are viable but to an extent.

Her oki is pretty good.

Zoning doesn't really bother her.

Jump back 2 and b3 can be pretty broke if you don't know.



But the things about those good tools is that they exploitable

But like any character if you take advantage of their weakness it will make it hard for them.
 
Laos_boy

Laos_boy

Meow Hoes
.
Ecodus said:
Imo, this is the biggest and most common misconception about fighting CW that exists in the current Meta.
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Okay I may have stated wrong. Using mb catdash is risky. You have to make the right read and so does your opponent. Getting around zoning. Isn't super hard but its not easy
 
Juffalo

Juffalo

Noob
As far as the metagame is concerned, any advantage she may gain by having some good matchups against the top tiers is balanced out by her 3-7s vs Bane and Aquaman.

Sinestro is a tough matchup but there are fewer serviceable (sorry, ForeverKing) pocket Sinestros than serviceable pocket Aquamen. Your chance of actually hitting a Sinestro in tournament has been pretty low throughout the games lifetime.

In before Ra Helios says Bane vs CW is a 6/4
 
Awkward Sloth

Awkward Sloth

Lamest Harley, still better sloth than Jer
Okay Catwoman is great and all but where's the Harley Meta thread? Isn't there a certain salty player doing amazing things with that character? Isn't that meta thread worthy?
 
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