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Let's Talk About Catwoman's Meta

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Despite tier arguments, I think it's awesome that we have a game where almost every character is top 8 viable. Whether Catwoman is top 5 or bottom 5 doesn't matter, a good player can still do well with her and that's tight.
(Just off the bat, if you were worried, this isn't a "Catwoman is top 10 thread -- I'm not going to exaggerate here).

So, Bit is likely going to kill me, but I'm going to reopen the "is Catwoman a bad character" discussion. Putting aside the sheer matchup counts (since depending on a how a game is balanced, even a character with more losing matchups can still technically not be "a shitter" if the distance is workable), I want to actually discuss Catwoman's meta and get into specifics. In tournament matches I am observing the following:

-A superb footsie tool, overhead and whiff punisher in f1
-A tricky oki game, with f1, b1, and armored f3, alongside the ability to stuff numerous wakeups
-A b3 with superb range that goes under a good deal of other character' footsie tools
-A backdash that also goes under several other moves
-A solid longer-range check in Cat Dash -- it may be unsafe when used/spaced incorrectly, but it still keeps opponents honest when used judiciously and sparingly
-Air normals that have hitboxes that take priority over a lot of things in the game; how many times were people's AA's or air-to-airs stuffed by j1 and j2 for full combo at WCW?
-Although she doesn't have a litany of useful wakeups, her trait does it's job well enough when needed
-The ability to make strings (relatively) safe with Cat Claws
-Solid damage
-Decent enough unclashable damage when need be for closing out matches

So my serious question is, other than the obvious matchups like AM and Bane, if you just look at her ability to compete with other characters in this game in neutral/oki/damage, what is it that makes her "a shitter"?

Yes, when you count matchups she's not going to be on top of the heap, but does her description as a "terrible character" (which conjures images of SF4 Dan) draw attention away from her ability to compete with other characters in the cast at a high level, in terms of the meta?

Put another way, is it possible that should could lose a fair amount of matchups, but not by a significant enough degree to keep her from being viable as a tournament character when played with solid fundamentals?

And for educational purposes, what specifically is it that players of all other characters are not doing, that renders her tools completely useless and makes her appear to be the bottom feeder that she is made out to be? If everyone is just terrible at the matchup, then what can players of the rest of the cast do in order to render her more ineffective? I want to get more specific than "she has bad matchups" and "well, play her yourself in tournament if you think she's not worthless".

Anyway, I'm curious to see what everyone thinks about her meta, at this point in the game's life cycle.

Also don't shoot me Steve -- and congratulations.
 
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EMPRESS_SunFire

Regina George of discord
She is definitely a good character, but there are a shit ton of other characters better than her match up and tool wise tbh... I think she is definitely a low tier character THAT can compete... But someone needs to be bottom tier and Catwoman is worse than a lot of characters (being low tier in this game doesn't make a character bad)... Also F1 is not a "super" footsie tool TBH, but it's one of her better tools... Idk about her match ups but from what I know... bane, Aquaman, Sinestro and Lex beat her baad...
 

YOMI Trepound380

Tranquil Anarchy
(Just off the bat, if you were worried, this isn't a "Catwoman is top 10 thread -- I'm not going to exaggerate here).

So, Bit is likely going to kill me, but I'm going to reopen the "is Catwoman a bad character" discussion. Putting aside the sheer matchup counts (since depending on a how a game is balanced, even a character with more losing matchups can still technically not be "a shitter" if the distance is workable), I want to actually discuss Catwoman's meta and get into specifics. In tournament matches I am observing the following:

-A superb footsie tool, overhead and punisher in f1
-A tricky oki game, with f1, b1, and armored f3, alongside the ability to stuff numerous wakeups
-A b3 with superb range that goes under a good deal of other character' footsie tools
-A backdash that also goes under several other moves
-A solid longer-range check in Cat Dash -- it may be unsafe when used/spaced incorrectly, but it still keeps opponents honest
-Air normals that have hitboxes that take priority over a lot of things in the game; how many times were people's AA's or air-to-airs stuffed by j1 and j2 for full combo at WCW?
-Although she doesn't have a litany of useful wakeups, her trait does it's job well enough when needed
-The ability to make strings (relatively) safe with Cat Claws
-Solid damage
-Decent enough unclashable damage when need be for closing out matches

So my serious question is, other than the obvious matchups like AM and Bane, if you just look at her ability to compete with other characters in this game in neutral/oki/damage, what is it that makes her "a shitter"?

Yes, when you count matchups she's not going to be on top of the heap, but does her description as a "terrible character" (which conjures images of SF4 Dan) draw attention away from her ability to compete with other characters in the cast at a high level, in terms of the meta?

Put another way, is it possible that should could lose a fair amount of matchups, but not by a significant enough degree to keep her from being viable as a tournament character when played with solid fundamentals?

And for educational purposes, what specifically is it that players of all other characters are not doing, that renders her tools completely useless and makes her appear to be the bottom feeder that she is made out to be? If it's true that everyone is just terrible at the matchup, then what can players of the rest of the cast do in order to render her more ineffective? I want to get more specific than "she has bad matchups" and "well, play her yourself in tournament if you think she's not worthless".

Anyway, I'm curious to see what everyone thinks about her meta, at this point in the game's life cycle.

Also don't shoot me Bit -- and congratulations.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
She is definitely a good character, but there are a shit ton of other characters better than her match up and tool wise tbh... I think she is definitely a low tier character THAT can compete... But someone needs to be bottom tier and Catwoman is worse than a lot of characters (being low tier in this game doesn't make a character bad)... Also F1 is not a "super" footsie tool TBH, but it's one of her better tools... Idk about her match ups but from what I know... bane, Aquaman, Sinestro and Lex beat her baad...
I'm not arguing about her tier placement here -- I just wanted to talk about the specifics of her meta. It's plausible that everyone is playing the matchup incorrectly; but if so, it seems like we should be talking about what specifically players of other characters should be doing better.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Honestly I think she's a good character, in the Joker MU anyway lol.

I think what I comes down to is the lack of experience most people have against her. I'm fortunate enough to have quite a few CW players to play on PSN, one being @KH StarCharger, who knows this character insanely well and imo is thee best CW I have ever played. That being said, I know the Joker/CW MU inside and out and I can't really say much about her other then what she can and can't do vs Joker and vice versa. Her J1 and B3 is Gotlike though for real.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Cant wait for a Certain Phenomenal selina kyle player to post :rolleyes:
I don't expect him to tell everyone how to beat his character (I definitely wouldn't if it were me). But for anyone else that has insights into the situation, it'd be great to start discussing things in detail instead of generalities.

There's too much "Well she's just bad and loses matchups" and not enough "Here's specifically what people need to be doing against her to render her tools ineffective, but aren't".
 
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Laos_boy

Meow Hoes
ok.
catwoman. she is another good character in a broken game. she does has great tools. but there are better. and since most of her tool set is footsie based it can be hard for her to play her game. and a footsie character with ass walk speed cmon!
Characters i say that have better mid ranged tools.
Sinestro: b12 and his walk back. in addition to his zoning
Bane: d2, d1, armor. in addition to his KD game
Aquaman: b1 and b2. and j2
Wowo: b2 and b1. in addition to her KD game 50/50
killer Frost: slide. in addition to a meterless vortex and jb2 doesnt work to well unless spaced perfectly
Deathstroke: low gunshots and j3. in addition to d2 and KD game

these are just somethings. ill post most later
 

EMPRESS_SunFire

Regina George of discord
I'm not arguing about her tier placement here -- I just wanted to talk about the specifics of her meta. It's plausible that everyone is playing the matchup incorrectly; but if so, it seems like we should be talking about what specifically players of other characters should be doing better.
Ohh idk about that then... 16 Bit and other Catwoman players are the only ones who can talk about that... And If I remember well, 16 Bit already posted what makes her bad and what people is doing wrong.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
A big part of catwoman's footsies that you didn't mention is her god awful walk speed.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but Bit seems to get around it by spending half the match in the air, covering himself with the jumping hitboxes, and the rest of the match either pressuring to close distance or crouched waiting for you to move. f1 and b3 are safe and control/cover a lot of space, so even without the walkspeed it seems like you still have to be wary of moving around in the space her hitboxes occupy.

As an example, Hippo was trying to counteract this by contesting the airspace with AA, and more often then not he just ended up being stuffed for full combo. Aside from that specific MU (and the quirks of DS's d2 animation), it seems to happen a lot.
 
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xKhaoTik

Kitana Kahn
Idk. It just doesn't make sense to me how a character can be so "bad", yet Bit makes her look so awesome lol. I can't comment on the matter because I dont use her, but Bit and Astro constantly say she isn't that good, so I have to respect it. I definitely don't think she's as good as Ra makes her out to be.


She's definitely the best shitter in the game :DOGE
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Catwoman i way better than everyone thinks, and that's how 16 Bit keeps placing. 16 Bit and his skype illuminati are just match up cops and downplay the shit out of the character to get Bit low tier hero props and TYM is full of sheep who go along with it
Hahahahahahahaha yoooooo went guns blazing. Like I said, idk how she runs in other MUs, but in the Joker MU she dominates and I can give you hella reasons. Some Examples: small hurtbox, B3 and her J1 and 2
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Idk. It just doesn't make sense to me how a character can be so "bad, yet Bit makes her look so awesome lol. I can't comment on the matter because I dont use her, but Bit and Astro constantly say she isn't that good, so I have to respect it. I definitely don't think she's as good as Ra makes her out to be.


She's definitely the best shitter in the game :DOGE
I respect comment for real.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Catwoman is way better than everyone thinks, and that's how 16 Bit keeps placing. 16 Bit and his skype illuminati are just match up cops and downplay the shit out of the character to get Bit low tier hero props and TYM is full of sheep who go along with it
This is kind of the exaggerating I'm talking about. Clearly bit is also a great player and it's silly to try to take that completely away from him. He's already proven it in more than one game. So I don't want the thread to go down this road.

But it also seems like there are some things about CW's meta that aren't really being fleshed out. I'm trying to avoid going to extremes so that we can just discuss the details.

Edit: Sunfire and TB I love you guys, but let's keep this on topic.
 
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NoobHunter420

Scrub God Lord
that bitch is broken under the current tournament meta.
most majors will have a shit ton of martians,zods,batmans,black adams other top characters.
she happens to do well with the top characters that the majority of the people use.
not many people go even with martian and zod.
her only true problem is aquaman.
the opposite happens with raven, she is shit under the current tournament meta.
doomsdays in every fucking pool....smh
 

Shaazzyam

undefeated online evo champion
I don't think you're going to get a real answer.

Just more of "Well, uh, I can't say since I don't play the character. But 16bit."
 

4x4lo8o

Noob
This is kind of sets at aggerating I'm talking about. Clearly bit is also a great player and it's silly to try to take that completely away from him. He's already proven it in more than one game. So I don't want the thread to go down this road.

But it also seems like there are some things about CW's meta that aren't really being fleshed out. I'm trying to avoid going to extremes so that we can just discuss the details.

Edit: Sunfire and TB I love you guys, but let's keep this on topic.

You don't get it because you're not out here at tournaments playing short, offline sets with top players. Catwomans air game is fucked and she has 50/50s that are ridiculous to deal with. For a lot characters the game is over if she touches you once. It's bullshit. Losing to Catwoman in tournament is the worst feeling in the world because all she has to do to win is guess right a couple of times. This bullshit about how 16 Bit is constantly working overtime needs to stop.
16 Bit is good, but he's doing much better than he would be if he were using a real mid tier character like Superman, who doesn't have mix ups
 

Shaazzyam

undefeated online evo champion
You don't get it because you're not out here at tournaments playing short, offline sets with top players. Catwomans air game is fucked and she has 50/50s that are ridiculous to deal with. For a lot characters the game is over if she touches you once. It's bullshit. Losing to Catwoman in tournament is the worst feeling in the world because all she has to do to win is guess right a couple of times. This bullshit about how 16 Bit is constantly working overtime needs to stop.
16 Bit is good, but he's doing much better than he would be if he were using a real mid tier character like Superman, who doesn't have mix ups
There's no reason to be so facetious. I doubt Crimson is implying that Catwoman is top tier material here.

Edit: I can't tell if you're trolling