Kustom Variation Math: Refuting Popular Claims

[DarkSado]

Here we go with the weak ass BALANCE argument again....

1) NRS already proved through the beta that Custom variations had a great balance for each character by giving risks and slots to moves. Risks as in taking out one of each character's main move for the custom move. And with some taking more than 1 slot, it became more strategic to what to add. Playing the beta and stress test proved that plan was genius and it worked beautifully!

2) Countpicking....Ummm have you played online yet? PEOPLE ALREADY COUNTERPICK LIKE CRAZY! People are gonna do that shit anyways regardless w/ customs or not. Thats just how ppl play NRS games apparently.

Point blank....this current system we have is already stale as fuck w/ these whack ass tournament variations. Customs will bring so much more depth in learning each character and making EVERYBODY viable. If you want to keep these tournament variations, then be prepared for a game that will burn out before its 2 year mark. We're ONLY in week 3 and im just about burned out w/ these current variations my damn self. Just keeping it all the way live.

No it didn’t it was just everyone using the same moves like misery blade it was a beautiful failure lol.

 

[Ram]

...What will be the rules if someone wins a match, will they be able to change their variation?....

Don't really know how to answer your other questions, but for this one, I think it makes most sense to keep it as it has been: winner can't change anything, loser can change variation loadout or switch to another character

 

[Zoidberg747]

I think you've confused me with someone else. Can you quote where I bitch about dropping our game for a new title? I'm the one who always said it was a natural part of the release cycle of NRS games.

And by 'always' I mean at least 6-7 continuous years, from the end of MK9 through now.

Google search says otherwise

Honestly I see this from the reverse perspective. When the developer stops support for your game, then you find out what your community is really made of, rather than the temporary hype that comes from a new character.

Melee, Marvel 3, etc. have all shown this. If you truly care about your scene you will make it happen, patches or no. And if not, then no amount of developer support can truly save your scene (Killer Instinct, MVCI, etc).

I think you don’t find out how strong a scene really is until they have to support themselves. And I don’t think we’re doing a great job of this since MKX came out. There was this mentality of “We don’t have to do anything anymore, because NRS is going to take care of the scene and sponsors will take care of the players”. We haven’t really recovered from this yet.

I think it’d be good to take a second look at how we can promote our own scene regardless of what the developer does.

I think people are trying to kill the scene. That's the only explanation I can think of for how we can go from talking about how hype of a tournament EVO was, and how amazing all the matches were, and the storylines, to someone saying the game is dead 3 weeks later.

All I know is that nearly every tournament has had amazing sets, a ton of nailbiters and close comebacks, and some highly memorable finishes -- I've almost never watched an INJ2 tournament and been bored (maybe in the brief Deadshot vs. Deadshot period, but that was it). Entrants are still good and newer players are rising to the top (like Rewind). So imo we should stop trying to kill it and just embrace our scene and have fun.

P.S. We should also stop making comparisons to Mortal Kombat. MK is a 20-year-old famous gaming franchise which many people played in their childhood. It will always have more entrants and a bit more attention, but that doesn't mean that Injustice isn't also doing well for what it is.

Not only do you always argue that it's the fault of the community that NRS games die, you even praised MVC3 and the fact that its community stuck to it for so long. None of this is even bad and I agree the community is part of the problem, but you've been saying similar things since Inj 1. I just think it a bit ironic that you are now shitting on MVC3 when you were praising it's community during IJ2, which is now dead while UMVC3 is still kickin at side tournaments.

Edit: I didn't mean for all of this to come off so aggressive so I changed the wording.

 

[JBeezYBabY]

Ironic considering you constantly bitch about NRS players dropping the old title for the new one when Umvc3 is still being run in tournaments over MVCI like 7 years later. I dislike the everyone's broke philosophy, but UMVC3 proves that people will still play those types of games for a very long time. If you go to any tournament that doesn't have UMVC3 as a main game there is a side tournament for it. Can't say the same about Injustice 2, which was supposedly the most balanced NRS game yet.

My problem with Kustom Variations right now is logistics. There is currently no way to create kustom variations on the character select screen so every match would have to have people going back to the menu which could add up with all the NRS button check shenanigans. Plus there have to be rules in place to prevent stalling or trying to create a variation for 10 minutes off the cuff. Will there be a time limit? How will that be enforced over 7-8 different setups? What will be the rules if someone wins a match, will they be able to change their variation? With the UMVC3 example the characters were still all on the character select screen and the team building system was quick and easy, kustom variations are not. That is the biggest obstacle to kustom variations, not balance.

What Uncle JBeezY propose is this. Before each set, 2 opponents have 30 sec each to create their variations up to 2. That way, they can counter pick in the set if they want to. But if they dont create it in that time allotted then, they're stuck w/ the tournament variations. That will be more than enough time to set up 2 customs. If somebody wins a match, they're locked in w/ their character and variation. The loser will be able to choose either a new variation for their current character or choose a new character.

But if they did not add a custom to that character in the 30 sec they had, then again, they're stuck with the tournament variations. This can work

 

[Zoidberg747]

What Uncle JBeezY propose is this. Before each set, 2 opponents have 30 sec each to create their variations up to 2. That way, they can counter pick in the set if they want to. But if they dont create it in that time allotted then, they're stuck w/ the tournament variations. That will be more than enough time to set up 2 customs. If somebody wins a match, they're locked in w/ their character and variation. The loser will be able to choose either a new variation for their current character or choose a new character.

But if they did not add a custom to that character in the 30 sec they had, then again, they're stuck with the tournament variations. This can work

This could work at locals, but how would it work at majors? You have 10-15 setups going at one time, and there is almost never that many judges/referees around. If someone breaks the rule and a ref isn't there then what? Hard to prove someone took longer than 30 seconds. Not to mention TOs never even got the community to clear the bluetooth devices during MKX or IJ2, I highly doubt they'd be able to get everyone to follow even a clear rule on the variations.

I also don't think you realize how even adding 30 seconds to every match would affect a tournament. For reference going back to EVO 2016 for MKX, there were 54 pools with 29 matches each (roughly). If you add 30 seconds to every match in that tournament, pools alone would take THIRTEEN hours longer (obviously not everyone would take 30 seconds, but I guarantee that many would take more or not know the rules).

Just to be clear i'm not against kustom variations, but it is up to NRS to put in a fast and easy way to create them from the character select screen, otherwise they will make running MK11 a logistical nightmare.

 

[JBeezYBabY]

This could work at locals, but how would it work at majors? You have 10-15 setups going at one time, and there is almost never that many judges/referees around. If someone breaks the rule and a ref isn't there then what? Hard to prove someone took longer than 30 seconds. Not to mention TOs never even got the community to clear the bluetooth devices during MKX or IJ2, I highly doubt they'd be able to get everyone to follow even a clear rule on the variations.

I also don't think you realize how even adding 30 seconds to every match would affect a tournament. For reference going back to EVO 2016 for MKX, there were 54 pools with 29 matches each (roughly). If you add 30 seconds to every match in that tournament, pools alone would take THIRTEEN hours longer (obviously not everyone would take 30 seconds, but I guarantee that many would take more or not know the rules).

Just to be clear i'm not against kustom variations, but it is up to NRS to put in a fast and easy way to create them from the character select screen, otherwise they will make running MK11 a logistical nightmare.

I mean, people always need time to change their buttons anyways, so the same time applies. This is just giving a concrete time frame but it could be less than that because already know what their moves are going to be when going to a tournament.

More TOs will have to be involved to make sure things go smoothly but we're not children. If you can trust people simply going to the TO giving the scores on who won the match, why not have the same trust in setting up?

 

[magandi]

creating a team in 3vs3 games usually means you take a shell and add one character you like. i feel like this would happen to cv in mk11. would anyone play erron black without enhanced lnl?

 

[CorneliusBrutus]

What Uncle JBeezY propose is this. Before each set, 2 opponents have 30 sec each to create their variations up to 2. That way, they can counter pick in the set if they want to. But if they dont create it in that time allotted then, they're stuck w/ the tournament variations. That will be more than enough time to set up 2 customs. If somebody wins a match, they're locked in w/ their character and variation. The loser will be able to choose either a new variation for their current character or choose a new character.

But if they did not add a custom to that character in the 30 sec they had, then again, they're stuck with the tournament variations. This can work

I don't know much about fighting game tournaments, so maybe the logistics of this don't line up very well, but can't you have people submit variations ahead of time? Again, this is very similar to card games. Deck lists are submitted in writing ahead of time. Up to 3 per character, for up to 3 characters. Realistically I feel like 3 variants covers a lot of strategic possibilities. You can also just use the default tournament variants.

See Heathstone's Specialist format for reference.

 

[CorneliusBrutus]

creating a team in 3vs3 games usually means you take a shell and add one character you like. i feel like this would happen to cv in mk11. would anyone play erron black without enhanced lnl?

There would be a lot of "obvious" choices, BUT if a highly ranked player brought a variation WITHOUT Enhanced LnL, that would be a big talking point! People would be interested and excited by it in the same way they are when someone brings out a pocket character that's rarely used.

 

[Zoidberg747]

I mean, people always need time to change their buttons anyways, so the same time applies. This is just giving a concrete time frame but it could be less than that because already know what their moves are going to be when going to a tournament.

More TOs will have to be involved to make sure things go smoothly but we're not children. If you can trust people simply going to the TO giving the scores on who won the match, why not have the same trust in setting up?

But you don't need that much time because you can change your buttons on the character select screen, which you can't do with custom variations.

NRS players have always been notorious for having ridiculously long button checks where people combo each other (top players sometimes even pretend like they are playing a match only to restart to troll the stream). It is silly to assume everyone would follow any time limit on creating variations, which is my main point. There needs to be a way for it to be done quickly, having everyone have to back out to the main menu, go into the kustomize and change up the variations would take way too long and make majors run way too long.

I'm willing to be that regardless of the community's wishes most TOs are not going to allow kustom variations unless NRS implements a quicker way to create and change them. But I guess we'll see what happens.

 

[JBeezYBabY]

But you don't need that much time because you can change your buttons on the character select screen, which you can't do with custom variations.

NRS players have always been notorious for having ridiculously long button checks where people combo each other (top players sometimes even pretend like they are playing a match only to restart to troll the stream). It is silly to assume everyone would follow any time limit on creating variations, which is my main point. There needs to be a way for it to be done quickly, having everyone have to back out to the main menu, go into the kustomize and change up the variations would take way too long and make majors run way too long.

I'm willing to be that regardless of the community's wishes most TOs are not going to allow kustom variations unless NRS implements a quicker way to create and change them. But I guess we'll see what happens.

Until NRS changes their screen to make em more accessable, my proposal would be the only one i can think of. 30 sec may sound like alot but that time is used for setting up customs and buttons. Im just saying, anything to make Customs work, Im open to ideas because this needs to happen.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Google search says otherwise





Not only do you always argue that it's the fault of the community that NRS games die, you even praised MVC3 and the fact that its community stuck to it for so long. None of this is even bad and I agree the community is part of the problem, but you've been saying similar things since Inj 1. I just think it a bit ironic that you are now shitting on MVC3 when you were praising it's community during IJ2, which is now dead while UMVC3 is still kickin at side tournaments.

Edit: I didn't mean for all of this to come off so aggressive so I changed the wording.

You actually said the opposite of what I was saying.

You quoted 2 posts that have nothing to do with the release cycle or dropping a game after 2 years. Both posts apply to how we support a game during that game's natural lifecycle. How we appreciate and give life to our tournament scene.

https://testyourmight.com/threads/nrs-development-cycles-and-mk11-potential-lifespan.68942/page-4#post-2474919
https://testyourmight.com/threads/how-mortal-kombat-11s-custom-variations-will-work-in-competitive-play.68769/page-4#post-2465492
https://testyourmight.com/threads/is-ninjakiller-the-best-mortal-kombat-x-player-podcast-discussion.67471/#post-2405216
https://testyourmight.com/threads/combo-breaker-mkx-top-8-and-results.66979/#post-2393134
https://testyourmight.com/threads/does-injustice-have-to-die.51847/page-3#post-1713058
https://testyourmight.com/threads/evo-2018-lineup-announced.66532/post-2376003
https://testyourmight.com/threads/why-do-nrs-games-die.62917/post-2229749
https://testyourmight.com/threads/community-real-talk-thread-igau-and-mk9-players-please-read.43981/

If you want to stop cherrypicking posts, you can grab and quote the numerous posts above, made over multiple years (including 2-3 in the last couple weeks alone) stating that the games 'die' simply because we naturally move on to the next game when it comes out and are really just one community.

And regarding MVC3, that was my entire point -- that people stuck with it not because it was a great or balanced game, but because of a cult of personality and hype that carried them through it. And once that was gone, there's nothing left to sustain what they had, since they can't depend on the game. Thus the Marvel community is now deader than doorknobs, and doesn't look to be reviving itself any time soon.

 

[Zoidberg747]

You actually said the opposite of what I was saying.

You quoted 2 posts that have nothing to do with the release cycle or dropping a game after 2 years. Both posts apply to how we support a game during that game's natural lifecycle. How we appreciate and give life to our tournament scene.

If you want to stop cherrypicking posts, you can grab and quote the numerous posts I've made over multiple years stating that the games 'die' simply because we move on to the next game when it comes out and are really just one community.

And regarding MVC3, that was my entire point -- that people stuck with it not because it was a great or balanced game, but because of a cult of personality and hype that carried them through it. And once that was gone, there's nothing left to sustain what they had, since they can't depend on the game. Thus the Marvel community is now deader than doorknobs, and doesn't look to be reviving itself any time soon.

I feel like the first point is semantics so i'll just drop it.

My other main point though is that balance doesn't always matter in terms of longevity which is what some people are saying. Melee and UMVC3 both were largely unbalanced and had a cult following for many years (Melee survived over a decade with no patches and essentially 4 or 5 tournament viable characters). And I wouldn't say Marvel is dead as like I said there are plenty of UMVC3 side tournaments out there and most majors are still running MVCI even though some people don't like it. When looking at IJ2, an admittedly balanced game, we get to the crux of the issue which is that people will stick to games that are fun to play, regardless of whether they are balanced or not.

So if NRS really does want longevity for this game, kustom variations would be a way to achieve that. Would there be balance issues? Yes. But if people could create their characters to fit their playstyle they could arguably enjoy the game longer which might lead to the game not dying after a year and a half. So I disagree with your point that UMVC3 is a bad example because it was not balanced, as it not being balanced was a major reason why it lasted longer competitively than any NRS game ever did.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

My other main point though is that balance doesn't always matter in terms of longevity which is what some people are saying. Melee and UMVC3 both were largely unbalanced and had a cult following for many years (Melee survived over a decade with no patches and essentially 4 or 5 tournament viable characters). And I wouldn't say Marvel is dead as like I said there are plenty of UMVC3 side tournaments out there and most majors are still running MVCI even though some people don't like it. When looking at IJ2, an admittedly balanced game, we get to the crux of the issue which is that people will stick to games that are fun to play, regardless of whether they are balanced or not.

This is something I've always said. BUT you need a community that's based in it. There are two things that were going for Marvel 3 and Melee:

1. A culture of hero worship and hype (thus The Smash Bros doc, Yipes and the Chris G/Flocker/KBR etc)
2. They thought they were never going to get another one. Melee players realized they'd never have a game built that way again. When Capcom lost the Marvel license, most people assumed that was the end of MvC as well.

If you have those factors, you can sustain even through the most broken titles with community spirit.

In fact, WE had that spirit in MK9. It was a terribly broken game, but we sustained it through pure love. But we do not have that spirit now, and we know that. The current generation is much more entitled that we were in 2011 -- and having a reasonably balanced game is something that many people consider to be the threshold for staying interested competitively at all.

At this point we know that this community won't sustain hype for a game that's terribly broken. So it makes sense that, after having been yelled at for multiple years straight, the devs decide to play it safe in favor of competitive integrity first.

 

[Zoidberg747]

This is something I've always said. BUT you need a community that's based in it. There are two things that were going for Marvel 3 and Melee:

1. A culture of hero worship and hype (thus the Smash Bros, Yipes and the Chris G/Flocker/KBR etc)
2. They thought they were never going to get another one. Melee players realized they'd never have a game built that way again. When Capcom lost the Marvel license, most people assumed that was the end of MvC as well.

If you have those factors, you can sustain even through the most broken titles with community spirit.

In fact, WE had that spirit in MK9. It was a terribly broken game, but we sustained it through pure love. But we do not have that spirit now, and we know that. The current generation is much more entitled that we were in 2011 -- and having a reasonably balanced game is something that many people consider to be the threshold for staying interested competitively at all.

At this point we know that this community won't sustain hype for a game that's terribly broken. So it makes sense that, after having been yelled at for multiple years straight, the devs decide to play it safe in favor of competitive integrity first.

I think you're missing a huge factor in that Melee and UMVC3 were considered incredibly fun to play for those who played them. Sure Melee had the gods and their tournaments were hype but they still had locals and places where the top players never played. Almost every state has power rankings for players and almost none of the top ranked in those rankings could stand up to the gods. People loved to play melee because of the movement style and the creativity allowed by the game's engine.

Same thing for Marvel. Sure there was a ton of broken shit in that game, but a lot of people loved it. I haven't gone to a local gathering where there wasn't at least 2-3 setups of people running MVC3. The crazy combos, infinites etc. really hooked people and made them love the game. I don't buy that it being a Capcom game is the reason for its success. Street Fighter X Tekken was a Capcom game and it died almost as quickly as it began.

Besides, even with this game being safe you still have people complaining about balance. People will always complain about balance due to salt and other things. The key is whether or not the game is fun enough to look past the frustrating aspects.

 

[trufenix]

You wrote the word math so I got excited for actual analysis, then you said U/MvC3 was both balanced and long lasting.

Absolutely nope.

 

[dribirut]

We should never, ever, use UMvC3 as an argument for game balance.

That game was as broken and wildly unbalanced as it gets. If it wasn't a Capcom game it'd have died far sooner than it did. As soon as there was a sequel, that community completely went bust.

We already had a game in this community that was balanced like that (IGAU) and we know exactly what happens when that takes place. The Marvel 2/3 method of balance ("Ehh it's broke, who cares") absolutely will not work for us.

By making this thread you're ironically helping the argument of the people you were trying to argue against.

It’s unbelievable how much of a party pooper you are sometimes man haha Jesus

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I think you're missing a huge factor in that Melee and UMVC3 were considered incredibly fun to play for those who played them. Sure Melee had the gods and their tournaments were hype but they still had locals and places where the top players never played. Almost every state has power rankings for players and almost none of the top ranked in those rankings could stand up to the gods. People loved to play melee because of the movement style and the creativity allowed by the game's engine.

Melee nearly died altogether competitively before it was revived. Same game. What made the difference was that the community knew they probably wouldn't get another, so the channeled their love for it and brought it back.

Likewise MK11's fate will be determined by people's commitment to the community as a whole, not solely by whether people think it's fun (even though the consensus is that it's really fun to play).

 

[dribirut]

Melee nearly died altogether competitively before it was revived. Same game. What made the difference was that the community knew they probably wouldn't get another, so the channeled their love for it and brought it back.

Crimson I triple doggy dare you to say one cricicism of mk11.. just one. Bet you can’t do it

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Crimson I triple doggy dare you to say one cricicism of mk11.. just one. Bet you can’t do it

I posted two recently. I don't like the free Fatal Blow mechanic as-is, and I think some of the Krushing Blows are ridiculous (like Sonya getting 30% for landing the second ring when you block the first, make a read and get hit by the Amp).

I don't have a problem being honest about what I do and don't like.

 

[Xelz]

We should never, ever, use UMvC3 as an argument for game balance.

That game was as broken and wildly unbalanced as it gets. If it wasn't a Capcom game it'd have died far sooner than it did. As soon as there was a sequel, that community completely went bust.

We already had a game in this community that was balanced like that (IGAU) and we know exactly what happens when that takes place. The Marvel 2/3 method of balance ("Ehh it's broke, who cares") absolutely will not work for us.

By making this thread you're ironically helping the argument of the people you were trying to argue against.

Nah, UMvC3 did so well because it was fun as hell. If the Capcom name meant so much then MvC:I wouldn't have died so fast.

UMvC3 maintained a strong competitive following despite its balance issues. So you actually countered your own argument - game balance doesn't matter that much for a fighting game's longevity and tournament relevancy. What matters is skill depth, strategic depth, and that elusive fun factor. Sacrificing either of those in the name of perfect balance means another short lifespan.

And before anyone repeats the old "NRS games have a short lifespan because of their 2-year release cycle" argument, no, that's wrong. SFxT didn't kill SF4. SCVI didn't usurp Tekken 7. Melee outlasted Brawl.

Meanwhile, I2 was dying before MK11 released. Heck, it was dying before MK11 was announced. If NRS made a game fun and deep enough, it would last beyond the next release and at least 4 years until the next in-franchise title.

MK11 is fun, but the preset variations sap its strategic depth. Custom variations could give MK11 the endurance it needs to become a FGC mainstay.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Nah, UMvC3 did so well because it was fun as hell. If the Capcom name meant so much then MvC:I wouldn't have died so fast.

UMvC3 maintained a strong competitive following despite its balance issues. So you actually countered your own argument - game balance doesn't matter that much for a fighting game's longevity and tournament relevancy. What matters is skill depth, strategic depth, and that elusive fun factor. Sacrificing either of those in the name of perfect balance means another short lifespan.

And before anyone repeats the old "NRS games have a short lifespan because of their 2-year release cycle" argument, no, that's wrong. SFxT didn't kill SF4. SCVI didn't usurp Tekken 7. Melee outlasted Brawl.

Meanwhile, I2 was dying before MK11 released. Heck, it was dying before MK11 was announced. If NRS made a game fun and deep enough, it would last beyond the next release and at least 4 years until the next in-franchise title.

MK11 is fun, but the preset variations sap its strategic depth. Custom variations could give MK11 the endurance it needs to become a FGC mainstay.

Addressed this already:

This is something I've always said. BUT you need a community that's based in it. There are two things that were going for Marvel 3 and Melee:

1. A culture of hero worship and hype (thus The Smash Bros doc, Yipes and the Chris G/Flocker/KBR etc)
2. They thought they were never going to get another one. Melee players realized they'd never have a game built that way again. When Capcom lost the Marvel license, most people assumed that was the end of MvC as well.

If you have those factors, you can sustain even through the most broken titles with community spirit.

In fact, WE had that spirit in MK9. It was a terribly broken game, but we sustained it through pure love. But we do not have that spirit now, and we know that. The current generation is much more entitled that we were in 2011 -- and having a reasonably balanced game is something that many people consider to be the threshold for staying interested competitively at all.

At this point we know that this community won't sustain hype for a game that's terribly broken. So it makes sense that, after having been yelled at for multiple years straight, the devs decide to play it safe in favor of competitive integrity first.

There are plenty of other fun games that haven't been given a chance at that level because they're not in Capcom's wheelhouse.

Just like Smash benefits from being full of popular Nintendo characters, etc. It's never just the game. It's the community's passion around it that usually elevates some games over others.

Loyalty to Mortal Kombat and Injustice are at different levels for similar reasons.

 

[Xelz]

Addressed this already:

There are plenty of other fun games that haven't been given a chance at that level because they're not in Capcom's wheelhouse.

Just like Smash benefits from being full of popular Nintendo characters, etc. It's never just the game. It's the community's passion around it that usually elevates some games over others.

Loyalty to Mortal Kombat and Injustice are at different levels for similar reasons.

Before nostalgia and hero worship, those games became popular in the first place because they were fun, balance be damned. And players wouldn't have kept playing them if they weren't enjoying the game to begin with despite balance issues. Besides, the MvC community was only loyal as long as they had a good game - MvC:I barely saw daylight before the MvC community dropped it.

Games can be less balanced but stoke more passion, loyalty, and lure more new players than a more balanced yet less-fun game. You said it yourself, MK9 had worse balance but more passion. Better balance does not necessarily generate a better tournament community. The correlation - or lack thereof - is constantly there in your own examples.

Even outside of the FGC there are plenty of games with balance problems but higher fun factors that crushed their in-class competition. Call of Duty when they introduced loadouts, Overwatch, LoL, etc. And if you want to see a truly entitled gaming community, look no further than those titles, which coincidentally maintained or continue to maintain a large following and top-tier competitive scene. So no, a toxic or entitled or fickle community doesn't cause a good game to die young. Better games maintain competitive relevancy for longer, and better doesn't always mean more balanced.

More balance is better than less balance, no doubt about it. But more balance at the expense of fun and depth can make a game worse.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Games can be less balanced but stoke more passion, loyalty, and lure more new players than a more balanced yet less-fun game. You said it yourself, MK9 had worse balance but more passion. Better balance does not necessarily generate a better tournament community. The correlation - or lack thereof - is constantly there in your own examples.

The point that I was making about MK9 was that we actually don't have that mentality any longer. And that it's actually far more rare nowdays in the FGC as a whole. People on the whole have become far more entitled than they used to be.

In the mid 2000s you were happy just to have a game. There was no guarantee of continued support, balance, or anything like that. The plus side is that developers are now communicating more than they ever have, and supporting games more than they ever have. The downside is that it leads to people using their opinion of developer support as an excuse to conditionally support their community.

Aside from that, I don't think you can ignore the boosters these games have. Like, even if Fighting EX Layer is super fun to play, it's just never going to become a Marvel or a Smash Bros. Fun is a necessary ingredient, but most of these games become huge and stayed huge because of the companies and communities that back them.

There are various other games that are super fun to play, and will never break 1000 players at a tournament because they're not aligned with the big-name scenes.

 

[Scheme Kahn't]

► mfw these "custom balance" threads / debates are all actually about people wanting what they were promised -- customisation, and the unfettered use thereof
► mfw none of this is about actually about the mythical balance that only the pro-est of "I'll play with my own scat for cash" pros care about -- rather, the "balance" meme is being used to gild disgruntled consumer rants, to make them more palatable to / less dismissable by said "pros"

Spoiler