General/Other - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn needs BUFFS

[TylorJockin]

I've learned to low chip into his Sun Throw. It makes him a hassle without really having much of a need for anything else to work with. I just wish it was easier to punish neutral jumps and jumping away.

F2 is excellent for catching both imo

 

[Klesk_1]

How anyone can say that SUN GOD variation doesn't need buffs? i don't know about the other two, i mean war god is bloody decent enough, sun god needs a lot of work, please help NRS this is by far my favourite character and variation, i only play ermac because he is more viable than kotal

 

[RYX]

How anyone can say that SUN GOD variation doesn't need buffs? i don't know about the other two, i mean war god is bloody decent enough, sun god needs a lot of work, please help NRS this is by far my favourite character and variation, i only play ermac because he is more viable than kotal

sun god doesn't need buffs

Spoiler

but i want them anyway

 

[Klesk_1]

sun god doesn't need buffs

Spoiler

but i want them anyway

how do you think this variation doesn't need work? has no proper mixup game, no vortex, no on hit tick throws, no low combo starters. His projectile is garbage, his parry doesn't parry projectiles, his uppercut is an embarrassment and anti air throw trades most of the time. He needs to get three correct throws before it reaches 'max damage' and with this, despite his ridiculous size, being emperor of outworld and a 'sun god' he hits barely past 40% with 1 meter... yet you have characters like devorah/ermac who hit 45% with 1 meter?

I have no idea how anyone can think he's remotely viable when you compare him to the rest of the cast.

 

[PND_Ketchup]

With respect, saying "I've been playing since day 1" doesn't mean a whole lot when the game is a month old.

I do agree that Kotal has some pretty tough matchups, plus he's probably the easiest character in the game to zone out IMO.

 

[RYX]

how do you think this variation doesn't need work? has no proper mixup game, no vortex, no on hit tick throws, no low combo starters. His projectile is garbage, his parry doesn't parry projectiles, his uppercut is an embarrassment and anti air throw trades most of the time. He needs to get three correct throws before it reaches 'max damage' and with this, despite his ridiculous size, being emperor of outworld and a 'sun god' he hits barely past 40% with 1 meter... yet you have characters like devorah/ermac who hit 45% with 1 meter?

I have no idea how anyone can think he's remotely viable when you compare him to the rest of the cast.

Kotal gets 44% for a bar, more if he uses blood offering

His projectile is strong as hell, stop using it as a fullscreen tool when it gives you massive frame advantage on block, his uppercut is fine in niche situations, he has some of the best whiff punishing in the game with his reach on normals and ability to convert off of all of them. landing 3 correct throws isn't hard off of tick throws and punishes. He can also burn them for up to half a bar or 12% health return and he can do it off a blockstring and be completely safe, something that neither of them can do. His parry is a read move for his spacing game and that's how it should stay; his EX is for frame gaps and fast wakeups and the only change it needs is to parry jumping normals because it's stupid that it doesn't

kotal is not remotely similar to either of those characters so comparing them by their damage is a moot point

 

[Mr Aquaman]

This is still a thing?

 

[Barrogh]

I kinda feel like Scorch in Sun God is not worth the bar and/or the hassle. Maybe I'm wrong though.

I just feel that instead of having 3 charge levels (last being attained by performing maximum damage throw) he should have 2 (so you will get the most out of Scorch or subsequent throws, but don't have to land 3rd throw to maximize scorch).

Not sure about amount of meter/life, but with 2 charges to obtain it shouldn't probably be stronger.

That scorch input is killing me though. For some reason the game reads first half of it as forward dash for crying out loud (I'm on buttons).

Some NRS decisions on controls are so bad I feel I'll never mess up anything in most FGs I play once I'll manage to train myself to input anything without errors in MKX, it's just sad.

 

[John Grizzly]

There are two things I wished would happen:

1) Consistent AA (Which he has now gotten with his d2 buffs)

Go into training and record the AI doing some jump in attacks. Give D+3 a try as your anti-air. It lowers his hitbox and you can full combo off that shit. There are a couple characters it's not too consistent on (Sub Zero, I guess) but it's a really good option.

 

[KeyserSoze]

how do you think this variation doesn't need work? has no proper mixup game, no vortex, no on hit tick throws, no low combo starters. His projectile is garbage, his parry doesn't parry projectiles, his uppercut is an embarrassment and anti air throw trades most of the time. He needs to get three correct throws before it reaches 'max damage' and with this, despite his ridiculous size, being emperor of outworld and a 'sun god' he hits barely past 40% with 1 meter... yet you have characters like devorah/ermac who hit 45% with 1 meter?

I have no idea how anyone can think he's remotely viable when you compare him to the rest of the cast.

1) He does have a low combo starter, it's just not safe or optimal. (F34, Ex-Sunstone)

(In the corner, F34 leads to an easy 45% combo)

2) His projectile is no where near garbage. It gives him overwhelming plus frames on block and It is also the single most damaging projectile attack in the game. You can't spam it like a traditional, fast, mid-hitting projectile, but it is still a very solid move overall.

3) You are correct: His parry doesn't work on projectiles . . . So? Why would it? A lot of parries don't work on projectiles.

4) His uppercut is an embarrassment? Not even remotely close. It's a very solid AA tool and it does 14% damage. I use it all the time.

5) His anti-air throw is very mediocre as an actual ant-air tool, but it's his primary means for extending his combos, so it has a consistent, meaningful utility. Also, you want to see a completely useless anti-air throw? Pick up Jason.

6) Between standard pressure, tick throws, and whiff-punishing, landing three command grabs is pretty easy.

7) Out of all of the things to plausibly complain about in Kotal's game, damage is simply NOT one of them, lol. He does PLENTY of damage. Sun God easily breaks 40% for 1 bar, and much more with Blood Offering. Personally, I think his raw Sun Choke could use a slight damage boost for all three levels, but his overall damage is pretty damn good.

 

[Klesk_1]

Kotal gets 44% for a bar, more if he uses blood offering

His projectile is strong as hell, stop using it as a fullscreen tool when it gives you massive frame advantage on block, his uppercut is fine in niche situations, he has some of the best whiff punishing in the game with his reach on normals and ability to convert off of all of them. landing 3 correct throws isn't hard off of tick throws and punishes. He can also burn them for up to half a bar or 12% health return and he can do it off a blockstring and be completely safe, something that neither of them can do. His parry is a read move for his spacing game and that's how it should stay; his EX is for frame gaps and fast wakeups and the only change it needs is to parry jumping normals because it's stupid that it doesn't

kotal is not remotely similar to either of those characters so comparing them by their damage is a moot point

My point about his projectile it's totally unsafe against any teleport character, and a lot of projectile characters, you can get hit out of it because the start up animation is so ridiculous. Sure you can use it mid combo, in the corner and in a few other situations but it doesn't compare to people like jasons so it's pretty useless IMOI.Greaaat so it gives me plus frames, after using about 100 to get it going? just doesn't have the pay off. Scorch is absolutely not worth it, not given the fact that every bnb combo after that has significantly less damage.

My point about the damage is two fold, given the sort of character he is portrayed as in the story, his damage doesn't match up with his persona. Thats why i made the point about ermac and devorah. It's not a moot point by any means, you're just choosing to ignore it because you have nothing to counter it. The fact is, you look at pretty much any other fighting game, even injustice, Bane, Grundy, they hit like a ton. Zangief in sfiv, sentinel in mvc3 i could go on. The fact he manages a 44% with 1 bar is just medicore - WHEN COMPARED WITH THE REST OF THE CAST. He does ok damage, but he doesn't do loads of damage which is what i've come to expect of characters portrayed in this manner. i suppose this is just another moot point.

Now then, with respect to all of you, i've played pretty much every grappler in most fighting games i can think of and the reason they have the damage is because they get so heavily zoned. This is where this variation in particular really struggles, by the time you get in, you can only land the 44%, which is no better than most of the cast so if you look at it from this basic perspective, you're already at a disadvantage. - WHEN COMPARED WITH THE REST OF THE CAST.

The other points i made, about his parry for example are just ways i think he could be slightly more viable, if he could reflect projectiles for example it might help with the zoning thing. If he a couple of openers or mixups (like he does in war god) it would make him more viable.

What astounds me is the amount of people trying to make out he is fine, when he clearly is nowhere near as good as a lot of the cast (sun god var) and a little help wouldn't hurt other character, it would just mean he would be played a little more as he wouldn't have so many bad MU''s. It's hardly a sin to want a guy like this to be a bit more viable and yet you try and condem my post for pointing out some clear flaws in this variation, which is funny because you play the same variation and are just happy sitting there accepting the fact he so mediocre. Listen if you're happy how he is then fine, i'm just saying my 2p because i absolutely loved the character design but essentially he can't keep up with the rest of the case (in this variation).

Thing is i look at jason, block and hit tick throws, AA, safe option, mixups, teleports, high damage for no meter and i think to myself, well NRS clearly know how to make a grappler a bit more viable, what happened with sun god then?

/rant over.

 

[DarksydeDash]

If he does get buffs, it would be cool to see the sun ray track the opponent/Kotal. Guaranteed healing and Dot would is always nice. However this would only be in the sun god variation because.. SUN ray xP

 

[TheRealOnlyGoonie]

Everyone thats saying he does not need buffs is probably playing war god.

 

[RYX]

My point about his projectile it's totally unsafe against any teleport character, and a lot of projectile characters, you can get hit out of it because the start up animation is so ridiculous. Sure you can use it mid combo, in the corner and in a few other situations but it doesn't compare to people like jasons so it's pretty useless IMOI.Greaaat so it gives me plus frames, after using about 100 to get it going? just doesn't have the pay off. Scorch is absolutely not worth it, not given the fact that every bnb combo after that has significantly less damage.

My point about the damage is two fold, given the sort of character he is portrayed as in the story, his damage doesn't match up with his persona. Thats why i made the point about ermac and devorah. It's not a moot point by any means, you're just choosing to ignore it because you have nothing to counter it. The fact is, you look at pretty much any other fighting game, even injustice, Bane, Grundy, they hit like a ton. Zangief in sfiv, sentinel in mvc3 i could go on. The fact he manages a 44% with 1 bar is just medicore - WHEN COMPARED WITH THE REST OF THE CAST. He does ok damage, but he doesn't do loads of damage which is what i've come to expect of characters portrayed in this manner. i suppose this is just another moot point.

Now then, with respect to all of you, i've played pretty much every grappler in most fighting games i can think of and the reason they have the damage is because they get so heavily zoned. This is where this variation in particular really struggles, by the time you get in, you can only land the 44%, which is no better than most of the cast so if you look at it from this basic perspective, you're already at a disadvantage. - WHEN COMPARED WITH THE REST OF THE CAST.

The other points i made, about his parry for example are just ways i think he could be slightly more viable, if he could reflect projectiles for example it might help with the zoning thing. If he a couple of openers or mixups (like he does in war god) it would make him more viable.

What astounds me is the amount of people trying to make out he is fine, when he clearly is nowhere near as good as a lot of the cast (sun god var) and a little help wouldn't hurt other character, it would just mean he would be played a little more as he wouldn't have so many bad MU''s. It's hardly a sin to want a guy like this to be a bit more viable and yet you try and condem my post for pointing out some clear flaws in this variation, which is funny because you play the same variation and are just happy sitting there accepting the fact he so mediocre. Listen if you're happy how he is then fine, i'm just saying my 2p because i absolutely loved the character design but essentially he can't keep up with the rest of the case (in this variation).

Thing is i look at jason, block and hit tick throws, AA, safe option, mixups, teleports, high damage for no meter and i think to myself, well NRS clearly know how to make a grappler a bit more viable, what happened with sun god then?

/rant over.

first of all his command grab serves a different utility than damage. you're still ignoring the fact that he nearly gets a full bar from 114~scorch if you've taken up all of its levels. Could it do more damage as his variation specific grab? sure. Should it do more when you burn meter for it other than just armor? Absolutely.

the fact that you don't appreciate the immense frame advantage and insist on using it at any point where it can be teleported is mind boggling. Stop using it as a zoning tool, it's a blockstring ender.

If parry could reflect projectiles he'd be stupidly broken, and if he had mixups like war god then War God would be completely redundant and useless.

yes, his damage is a moot point and so is the argument about grapplers. nobody that you mentioned has the ability for instant meter/health gain and they especially can't do it with absolutely zero risk. When they can do that, then you can talk.

Kotal Kahn has D.3 for an AA and he can convert it to up to 40% for a bar. Kotal Kahn has safe options. Kotal Kahn has mix-ups in every variation that isn't Blood God and no numbers buff is going to change that because his strings don't inherently offer mix-ups anyway (and for good reason.)

If you want to play Jason, then play Jason. Don't try and force Kotal to be the exact same character because you either want that or someone who's so overpowered they can do 70% combos for a bar. If you want to break 50% then spend another bar. His damage is fine. His set-ups are fine. His trade-offs are acceptable.

He's fine.

 

[D4G]

This thread is just a Bunch of people who have never played the character seriously spouting a bunch of BS. I'll take my leave now.

#Buff K.K

 

[Klesk_1]

first of all his command grab serves a different utility than damage. you're still ignoring the fact that he nearly gets a full bar from 114~scorch if you've taken up all of its levels. Could it do more damage as his variation specific grab? sure. Should it do more when you burn meter for it other than just armor? Absolutely.

the fact that you don't appreciate the immense frame advantage and insist on using it at any point where it can be teleported is mind boggling. Stop using it as a zoning tool, it's a blockstring ender.

If parry could reflect projectiles he'd be stupidly broken, and if he had mixups like war god then War God would be completely redundant and useless.

yes, his damage is a moot point and so is the argument about grapplers. nobody that you mentioned has the ability for instant meter/health gain and they especially can't do it with absolutely zero risk. When they can do that, then you can talk.

Kotal Kahn has D.3 for an AA and he can convert it to up to 40% for a bar. Kotal Kahn has safe options. Kotal Kahn has mix-ups in every variation that isn't Blood God and no numbers buff is going to change that because his strings don't inherently offer mix-ups anyway (and for good reason.)

If you want to play Jason, then play Jason. Don't try and force Kotal to be the exact same character because you either want that or someone who's so overpowered they can do 70% combos for a bar. If you want to break 50% then spend another bar. His damage is fine. His set-ups are fine. His trade-offs are acceptable.

He's fine.

i'd love to see you play this guy, maybe you're right and i don't know anything, got any videos of this high level sun god variation?

AND to be clear, in one part of your reply you say he could do wtih more dmg on ex grab and then at the end you say he's fine? i'm not entirely sure where you're coming from, are you confused?

 

[RYX]

i'd love to see you play this guy, maybe you're right and i don't know anything, got any videos of this high level sun god variation?

AND to be clear, in one part of your reply you say he could do wtih more dmg on ex grab and then at the end you say he's fine? i'm not entirely sure where you're coming from, are you confused?

are you? i didn't think it was that difficult to understand

'can do with' is not equal to 'needs'

 

[Second Saint]

i'd love to see you play this guy, maybe you're right and i don't know anything, got any videos of this high level sun god variation?

AND to be clear, in one part of your reply you say he could do wtih more dmg on ex grab and then at the end you say he's fine? i'm not entirely sure where you're coming from, are you confused?

Not to try and speak for RYX, but there's a difference between a character being fine and a character being perfect. It's the difference between want and need. Many people are of the opinion that Kotal doesn't need anything, but that doesn't mean there is nothing he wouldn't benefit from.

 

[LiangHuBBB]

has anyone ever pulled off a 100% combo in an online match?
if so can anyone link me to it?

 

[Vagrant]

With respect, saying "I've been playing since day 1" doesn't mean a whole lot when the game is a month old..

Thank you.

 

[kenzokukien]

Not to try and speak for RYX, but there's a difference between a character being fine and a character being perfect. It's the difference between want and need. Many people are of the opinion that Kotal doesn't need anything, but that doesn't mean there is nothing he wouldn't benefit from.

Wouldn't you want characters to be perfect though? Not in the sense of over-powering but more of "I can see why this move has this many frames of startup/recovery" or "this character is dealing the right amount of damage considering his playstyle". Why settle for characters being just "fine".

 

[xInfra Deadx]

I'm glad I dropped this character because I knew something like this was going to happen.

 

[Second Saint]

Wouldn't you want characters to be perfect though? Not in the sense of over-powering but more of "I can see why this move has this many frames of startup/recovery" or "this character is dealing the right amount of damage considering his playstyle". Why settle for characters being just "fine".

Because realistically, not all characters are going to be done equally well. There are plenty of design choices I disagree with, but since there is not going to be a complete overhaul of the game to bring all 78 (with more to come) variations into parity, bringing potential upheaval to whatever balance we currently have, I'll live with the fact that there are tiers in this fighting game, just like every other fighting game. Not to mention that seeking perfection is something of a fool's errand. There will always be something you can make just one little tweak to that will make things just a little bit better.

Kotal is lucky in that he has one variation that is actually very good. Other characters do not have that. They need buffs. I want buffs for Kotal. I want better recovery on sun ray, better base damage on Sun Choke, and anti zoning tools in one of Kotal's variations. That doesn't mean I require these things. Sun God is adequate. It could be better, but I don't think it needs to be at this point in time.

 

[Matador Fiend]

*you're

Thank you captain obvious. Now here's a tip, if you're going to be a smartass, learn to spell.

Any vids of your Kotal? I remember you beasted with Noob when everyone was saying he was ass

 

[Klesk_1]

are you? i didn't think it was that difficult to understand

'can do with' is not equal to 'needs'

Sooooo in summary what you're saying is he 'can do with' some buffs hahahahaah after all your whining, you just agreed with me? LOLZ

It's a shame you have no videos of your superior khan though, seriously? i'd really like to see how you get on with other MU's you must have tech i'm not seeing, please show us all?

I honestly see no wrong in wanting a below average variation improved on. It clearly has some problems which wouldn't take a lot of work to impove on, even if it were minor thing, recovery frames on certain moves, or for example his parry 'absorbing projectiles' to help with the zoning MU. Frankly at this point i'd take anything, EX grab damage would be good, i.e. make it worth using outside of random wakeup. Or what about making his overhead not a hard knockdown?