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Kotal Kahn General Discussion

Literally don't even know who you are. I'm guessing you've been posting inaccurate stuff before, sorry for calling out the fact that the stuff that gets you killed in high lvl play is not meaty but them respecting your options in the 60+ frames they have to interrupt you.

If you're wavedashing up to someone and doing d3, f3 would've worked just the same + antiaired and gave you even more frame adv. Unless you're talking about up close, which isn't what he asked. He asked about command grab oki.

And if someone is eating your hop 3 overhead, they'd eat command grab as well.

Btw, hop 3 might be 9 frames in the movelist, but there are 5 pre-jump frames and at least 1 frame in the air before you actually do the move +1 more for the first active. 16 overall.
Anyone who has an opinion that differs from yours is deemed "inaccurate" despite you having been proven wrong before. So again overlook the word meaty and focus on the fact that options were presented.

D3 just as F3 are both low options to create conditioning. Just as raw command grabs, d1 tic throws, and eventually d1 Kahn cut to get those who jump to avoid command grab are also options that can be done AFTER command grab as was asked about.

Doesn't a genius to figure out doing the exact same thing every time will get you no where. Even a gimmick can catch a high level player off guard from time to time. I've done plenty
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Anyone who has an opinion that differs from yours is deemed "inaccurate" despite you having been proven wrong before. So again overlook the word meaty and focus on the fact that options were presented.

D3 just as F3 are both low options to create conditioning. Just as raw command grabs, d1 tic throws, and eventually d1 Kahn cut to get those who jump to avoid command grab are also options that can be done AFTER command grab as was asked about.

Doesn't a genius to figure out doing the exact same thing every time will get you no where. Even a gimmick can catch a high level player off guard from time to time. I've done plenty
Congrats, I've been wrong before. Everyone has. So you throw around "overlook my mistakes and listen to me" while you're doing the same behaviour that you're condemning.

D1 kahn cut can occasionally work, but if you make a read that someone is jumping, why would you ever commit to a -21 yolo special instead of waiting and antiairing properly, which btw nets you more damage?

It's these kind of gimmicks with no real thought or optimisation behind them that makes people like you terrible advice givers compared to people who have been playing high lvl competition since the beginning.

Anyway, good hypocrisy, catch you around.
 
Congrats, I've been wrong before. Everyone has. So you throw around "overlook my mistakes and listen to me" while you're doing the same behaviour that you're condemning.

D1 kahn cut can occasionally work, but if you make a read that someone is jumping, why would you ever commit to a -21 yolo special instead of waiting and antiairing properly, which btw nets you more damage?

It's these kind of gimmicks with no real thought or optimisation behind them that makes people like you terrible advice givers compared to people who have been playing high lvl competition since the beginning.

Anyway, good hypocrisy, catch you around.
Well pat yourself on the back and give yourself a cookie. The mistake I made in my original response was use the word meaty which was your whole retorted response. Of which I came back and clarified right after. But yet again here you come making more assumptions but didnt address any of the options I stated to the poster after ending with command grab.

Speaking of assumptions where the Hell do you pull your numbers from? - - - "Commit to a yolo -21 special" as you say. Please...once again do a fact check before you spew nonsense to fit your rhetoric as the move is -13. Let me "assume" purposely for the sake of argument that you dont do S12 into tick throw command grab. Especially since whiffing that alone has 40+ frames of recovery (46 to be precise). By that logic a yolo D1 or S12 into Kahn cut must be a low level thought process.

As previously mentioned everything I've stated has been centered around conditioning. It's what I do. If everyone plays a character the exact same, there would be no development.

But keep doing you son. We can only hope to be the player you are
 

DixieFlatline78

My God is the Sun
Well tools you use after someone is conditioned to expect something probably shouldnt be factored into Okizeme is the thing. If someone's asking for oki suggestions, they usually wanna know what's guaranteed offense after a move. Oki in general isnt super strong in MK11 since delayed wakeup doesnt have one specific set timing, and that's where things like what you suggested become effective. But to say wavedash command grab is part of command grab oki implies that you can more or less loop command grabs, which could get a new player blown up if someone knows they can challenge it.

Like I see what you're saying, but it's not really the same as oki
 
Some other changes I'd like to see:

  • 2 becomes a mid.
  • 221 is launcher everywhere on the screen instead of corner only
  • Ground Cat has adjusted projectile immunity that starts up faster.
  • Ground Cat becomes a base move, adjust totemic void by adding meter totem.
  • F122 adjusted so that the second hit is also an overhead instead of just the last hit.
  • Far Sun beam becomes a base move, basically MKX Sun beam with all ranges in one move, adjust Ascension void by adding the disc break move for synergy with uppercut/corner moves.
  • Sun beam gets reduced recovery.
  • Sun disc gains armor when under sunlight.
  • Disc throw amplify (the one where he throws delays the throw) becomes a base move, adjust Buluc void by adding the other Sun disc amplify.
  • lastly, the Disc amplify where he reflects the sun, becomes a few frames faster than regular disc.
But he will probably become broken if even some of those happen.
 

DixieFlatline78

My God is the Sun
Kotal doesn't need more buffs, he's already edging top 10.
Agreed. Hes prolly had the biggest glow up in the game. I dont see how anyone can deny how strong he is at this point. Normals, mobility, momentum, setups, mixups, damage potential, and he has variations that let him play any matchup. Hes probably the one character who legitimizes the variation system
 
Only thing Kotal should get is ground kitty getting projectile immunity faster (so it can actually do its job, instead of faceplanting into projectiles all the time). Doing it on prediction was alright, but now there's a much bigger punish window, so it just becomes a gamble vs most of the cast that's not in your favor.
 

DixieFlatline78

My God is the Sun
"he's already edging top 10"

What? Tell me he did NOT just say that?
He's only a couple spaces outside of it. Kotal is officially being slept on at this point. Watch Turkey in the Kolosseum, he's excellent. Qwark himself is very good too. He's been labbing this character for months, maybe even at launch. He definitely knows what he's talking about.
 
He's only a couple spaces outside of it. Kotal is officially being slept on at this point. Watch Turkey in the Kolosseum, he's excellent. Qwark himself is very good too. He's been labbing this character for months, maybe even at launch. He definitely knows what he's talking about.
Two people doing good with a character does not equate for that character all of a sudden being top 10 or "close" to it. He's not top 10 and as much as I would like for him to be top 10, he isn't better out half the cast to get that spot either.
 

DixieFlatline78

My God is the Sun
Two people doing good with a character does not equate for that character all of a sudden being top 10 or "close" to it. He's not top 10 and as much as I would like for him to be top 10, he isn't better out half the cast to get that spot either.
I agree that it's not but seeing what people that aren't seasoned tournament players with dozens of Top 8s do with a character can give you insight to a characters capability. He's not very orthodox, but he's very good at playing the game his way
 
Low high tier vs high mid tier, spot the difference... But let's play.

NRS pro scene is not large, Kotal being top 10 would still leave 9 characters ahead of him on the power curve to pick and have an easier time with, players already had months of practise on their top tiers once Kotal finally got buffed so why switch, and despite simple basics Kotal does have a high skill ceiling.

Can you see how this can well create a situation where he can have all the tools to be great, but you rarely see him? There are not a million Kotals out there to pick the world's best one player out of, there's a handful.
 
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Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I don't really respond to seasoned downplayers + shitposters, so I'm going to list a couple of tools so that people can come to their own conclusions.

1) Mid command grab that;

  • Buffs damage by 10%
  • Frametraps from pokes
  • Gives him good oki
  • Loops in corner
2) 2x krushing blow throws that give oki and loop into themselves

3) Every air normal outside of J2 is a top 5 air normal in its category

4) 19f longest reaching mid that's safe

5) 10f double advancing high string

6) +14 on hit D3 that low profiles and has a spear-like hitbox

7) Top 5 S1, antiairs chars like Dvorah and Jacqui

8) 17f advancing low that's +17 on hit, safe vs all wakeups except short delay

9) Very high corner damage

10) Has some of the easiest conversions in the game

11) Buluc straight up 7-3s some chars

12) Can get in on warlock shang and cetrion for free with a safe proj immune special

13) 1100 hp, he literally has the lifelead from round start


There's not a single aspect of this character that's bad, and he's the only char in the game outside of terminator that's offensively built + has command grab oki that fucks you over whether you block or not. He dominates footsies vs 99% of the cast and makes you squirm up close whether you're a defensive player or not.

And for people wondering "why don't we see kotals then?" Not a popular char + people are sheep and haven't realised how good he is, even after 50 buffs, + other chars play strike/throw better without needing to occasionally commit to command grabs.

Then again, MK9 cyrax never won shit until DJT, this community forgets very easily.
 
I need some guidance about the Kabal MU.

I feel like a literal sitting duck against Kabal, pressure and speed leave me helpless, that and the zoning.

Any tips? I play Buluc btw.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
@Qwark28

Who does kotal bully 7-3

How does he do against cage and frost out of curiosity
Any low damage or DOT character loses pretty badly. Once kotal gets a lifelead above a certain amount, those chars can do almost nothing to win.

he goes even with cage, beats frost. Cage used to beat him pre-patch when outtake was broken.
 

Wigy

There it is...
Any low damage or DOT character loses pretty badly. Once kotal gets a lifelead above a certain amount, those chars can do almost nothing to win.

he goes even with cage, beats frost. Cage used to beat him pre-patch when outtake was broken.
Any specific characters he bodies? Your description could mean a few characters

Anyone he does surprisingly well in?
 
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