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Kotal Kahn General Discussion

Error404

Noob
Idk . Considering all of the mobility and range Kotal has , the cat moves seem almost meaningless. But whatever floats your boat I guess
 
You totally can parry and duck and wavedash to get closer, because Kotal just needs two steps and a 19f window to close the gap... Totemic just gives you a shortcut. Totemic can also cool down the projectile spam just by existing, letting you get in through the usual methods, if the opponent doesn't want to get too predictable about their shots.

Also, Kotal drags his toes, so you're not jumping over anything reliably (unless you use j1 going up to get your toes up early, but then you're a sitting duck coming down). Totemic lets you do that but still threaten with divekick (or switch angles vs stuff like Geras sandtrap).

It's an extra toolset, in exchange for losing some damage.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Totemic gets in for free against cetrion, that's about the 1 matchup it's favored in, although ascension does just as well.

Other matchups are purely ascension favored.

Cat moves arent useless at all btw, having a safe divekick with a good arc is good, makes air to airs better, whiff punishing while airborne, etc. Ground cat also does something like 4% chip alone.
 
Not being the best one doesn't automatically make everything else 'hot garbage'.

Totemic's tools aren't worth doing 70% of the damage of Ascension if you don't care which one you're using, but if you like having a divekick and proper sunlight, it's viable.
 

Ram

Buluc Chabtan
So...let's talk about Kotal's changes:
  • Kotal Kahn - Heavy Blade (Back Kick) now starts up 1 frame faster, can now be 2in1 cancelled, and has a different hit reaction
  • Kotal Kahn - Yeyecame Disk now causes 5 more frames of blockstun and has more pushback when normal blocked
 

Ram

Buluc Chabtan
Some things I've seen + some other ideas:
  • max range s4xxSword --> this may be safe against most of the cast
  • ending combos in s4xxSun --> is this safe?
  • anti-air s4xxCat --> does this connect?
  • s4xxSundisc
  • f3xxSundisc
 
4 has 36 frames of recovery, and whiffs over crouch-blockers (except Kotal/Shao/Geras). So you cannot safely use it, unless you jail into it with a 1f link from d3... but it's worth the practise for Buluc, because even a blocked 4 gets you a free dmg totem.

It's alright as antiair - comes out faster and safer than B22, for less reward. Cancel into defensive totem if Buluc, or DF2 saw for immeadiate damage, or sunlight vs people who aren't chargers like Shao/Yass Queen/etc.

You can go for B22 into 4, which has the least hit advantage, but still enough to pop out a defense totem... but B22 34 gets you the same, with more damage done.

None of the options is safe enough to summon 2 offensive totems vs everyone, but it would still likely work out. I should probably check vs people that aren't Yass Queen levels of mobile.
 
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I like S4 as a "leave a hitbox out" move. And being able to get an easier totem off those reads is good now with the cancel.

S4 into cut whiffs on hit at max distance btw. It's a good buff, but it was the disc toss buff that got me excited.

Blocked s4 giving free damage totem I totally did not know lol. Holy shit that sounds amazing- definitely gotta try that.
 

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
Thanks for the support @Ram! Definitely fun and a good learning experience.

As for standing 4 cancels, I'm really liking it when I know the opponent will breakaway.
 

Slymind

Noob
S4 was the last button that needed to be adressed, i feel Kotal Kahn's entire arsenal is now functional, every string and special. I still dream of Xolal Quake cancel though.
 

DixieFlatline78

Everyone Has A Path
What do you guys do after the command grab? Seems like Kotal has poor oki in that regard outside corner :l
F2 hits meaty, so usually I'll test how they wake up with that. If they use delayed wakeup I'll try out DB4, or I'll dash, block cancel that, and J1. Or I'll just dash up and do a mixup on them. Or sunlight.

You actually do get a decent situation after Command Grab, just not a good strike/throw.
 
What do you guys do after the command grab? Seems like Kotal has poor oki in that regard outside corner :l
Wave dash into meaty command grab or d1 tick into command grab. Mix it up into d3 (low) for those that dont block on wake up into short hop 3 (overhead). Non MB command grab leaves you at F2 range as mentioned previously.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
What do you guys do after the command grab? Seems like Kotal has poor oki in that regard outside corner :l
Wave dash into meaty command grab or d1 tick into command grab. Mix it up into d3 (low) for those that dont block on wake up into short hop 3 (overhead). Non MB command grab leaves you at F2 range as mentioned previously.
You can't meaty command grab, nor D1 or D3. Short hop is also a bad suggestion, they can press buttons way before you get to point blank and hop 3 is 20+ frames total to get out.

Command grab oki is F3 to catch anything other than wakeup attacks while still being safe vs rolls and U2. Antiairs for full combo conversion as well. Then you mix that with jump ins and wavedash command grab.

Otherwise, F2 to hit perfectly meaty.
 
You can't meaty command grab, nor D1 or D3. Short hop is also a bad suggestion, they can press buttons way before you get to point blank and hop 3 is 20+ frames total to get out.

Command grab oki is F3 to catch anything other than wakeup attacks while still being safe vs rolls and U2. Antiairs for full combo conversion as well. Then you mix that with jump ins and wavedash command grab.

Otherwise, F2 to hit perfectly meaty.
Everytime I make a post for something you may or may not do, you come for me. So let me restate this without using the word "meaty" since that is what you're focused on. Keep in mind, the question that was asked are what "options" to follow up with.

If I end a string with a non MB command grab and "read" they will not wake up, but instead hold block or hold DOWN anticipating I'll go for a regular grab or start a HIGH string, I'll wave dash and command grab again.

Again -- disregarding the term "meaty" using D1 or D3, are options that setup conditioning especially D3 against non low blocking opponents. This is in term makes ops block low leading into short hop kick (over head) or yet another command grab. If you have not done this at all, do NOT discredit my successes especially those in the corner.

Btw hop 3 is not 20 frames either: its 9 frame startup (faster than short hop 1 or 2 at 12 frames), has 2 Active with 35 frames of recovery. Hit advantage on D3 is 13 so both short hop overhead attacks ate viable whether you use them or not.
 
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Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Everytime I make a post for something you may or may not do, you come for me. So let me restate this without using the word "meaty" since that is what you're focused on. Keep in mind, the question that was asked are what "options" to follow up with.

If I end a string with a non MB command grab and "read" they will not wake up, but instead hold block or hold DOWN anticipating I'll go for a regular grab or start a HIGH string, I'll wave dash and command grab again.

Again -- disregarding the term "meaty" using D1 or D3, are options that setup conditioning especially D3 against non low blocking opponents. This is in term makes ops block low leading into short hop kick (over head) or yet another command grab. If you have not done this at all, do NOT discredit my successes especially those in the corner.

Btw hop 3 is not 20 frames either: its 9 frame startup (faster than short hop 1 or 2 at 12 frames), has 2 Active with 35 frames of recovery. Hit advantage on D3 is 13 so both short hop overhead attacks ate viable whether you use them or not.
Literally don't even know who you are. I'm guessing you've been posting inaccurate stuff before, sorry for calling out the fact that the stuff that gets you killed in high lvl play is not meaty but them respecting your options in the 60+ frames they have to interrupt you.

If you're wavedashing up to someone and doing d3, f3 would've worked just the same + antiaired and gave you even more frame adv. Unless you're talking about up close, which isn't what he asked. He asked about command grab oki.

And if someone is eating your hop 3 overhead, they'd eat command grab as well.

Btw, hop 3 might be 9 frames in the movelist, but there are 5 pre-jump frames and at least 1 frame in the air before you actually do the move +1 more for the first active. 16 overall.