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Kotal Kahn General Discussion

Wetdoba

All too easy...
Nobody is OSing anyone. The argument was that if you know the matchup and you're aware of his setups, you can punish the unblockable 90% of the time. You comparing someone who hasn't played vs kotal or knows his setups as proof against those arguments is literally the opposite of logic.
Or maybe he used it in the correct 10% of scenarios? He knows when it is and is not a legitimate threat and will reserve it only for those situations. He is not one to over extend and just throw something out
 
F24 quake got punished, but then F243 hit several times and F2 quake won a round.
Watch it aggain , only reason that F243 hit is cuz he used only F24 . He never finished the string and when he did it hit on last one . That first F24 quake was done to check if jackal knew how to punish it , and thus was never repeated aggain. F2 quake won a round but so would F243, he just hit confirmed with F2 and finished with quake (maybe cuz he was afraid of the flawless ).
It's not a goto but it serves a purpose.
I agree , but the situation u presented wasnt the one .
 

trufenix

bye felicia
Nobody is OSing anyone. The argument was that if you know the matchup and you're aware of his setups, you can punish the unblockable 90% of the time. You comparing someone who hasn't played vs kotal or knows his setups as proof against those arguments is literally the opposite of logic.
You'd really rather believe Pillow is the only person in his pool who bothered to learn MUs outside of top tier?
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
You'd really rather believe Pillow is the only person in his pool who bothered to learn MUs outside of top tier?
Yes, I definitely believe a person playing a low tier character will be much more prepared than someone playing a top tier character, not only because you're not gonna get caught off guard by the top tier chars since they're your main labbing material but also because the nature of a low tier is to know your opponent's character better than they know yours. Just by the nature of tiers and fighting game casts, that has always been the case.

I 100% believe pillow has wider ( not neccesarily better ) matchup experience.
 
Y'all cray cray. Every comment Sparks controversy for us lol. Let's just sit back some and enjoy watching Kotal get represented. Win or lose good or bad, it is good to see that he can make it out of pools in the current meta.

He is also just hype to watch because of the large swings and sunlight is still one of the most satsifying round enders to see lol.

Also, post up your PSN if you guys are really playing Kotal I want to learn what you have to offer.
 
Reactions: JTC
So I was thinking about possible buffs that wouldn't vault him into braindead. Aside from hit box stuff etc. Also something that could be easy to implement for both variations.

What if his Kahn cut and sword cut had a late amplify that made them safe on block. No combo additional just like -4 or something.

This would allow some more stagger plays without having to make the hard reads like from b22 or f3 etc. Maybe it's too much still. I feel pretty good about kotal still, but I feel the match ups are hard on good block players that are willing to wait out a string.
 
So I was thinking about possible buffs that wouldn't vault him into braindead. Aside from hit box stuff etc. Also something that could be easy to implement for both variations.

What if his Kahn cut and sword cut had a late amplify that made them safe on block. No combo additional just like -4 or something.

This would allow some more stagger plays without having to make the hard reads like from b22 or f3 etc. Maybe it's too much still. I feel pretty good about kotal still, but I feel the match ups are hard on good block players that are willing to wait out a string.
They could of done some kind of Tusk armor mechanic from Killer instinct. If u dont know what that is , let me explain .Tusk cant cancel his sword attacks but there are a couple of frames where he kinda has a perry mechanic.So if u hit him during those frames u get punished (only like 14%-15% , not full combo).
 
Sounds complex to implement but that would be very kotal Kahn lol.

Or what if kotal Kahn spawned a totem when you amp panther on hit lol. I'm just being stupid now.
 
Or what if air panther amped would finish like regular one with bite to the neck. In my oppinion tusk and KK have too much of a similarity to be called coincidence. Even skull spliter and quake are nearly same move . 1 thing i would acutaly like for kotal to take from tusk is a stagger on sword hits, but real stagger , from which they cant poke out of .(also totem spawn when he FBs)
 
Problem is that IT FEELS LIKE HE LACKS SOMETHING. Like he had a mechanic that was cut out and there is that empty space. Like quake is nice , and sword attacks are also gr8 but they feel like they lack smtng .
 

chief713

Vertebral Subluxationist
At this point, I'd like to see QoL frame changes sort of similar to how they approached him in MKX.

Make F243 safe - F2 and F24 are both -7 so there's no real stagger game there, just very unsafe quake and D1 disrespect gimmicks. No reason for a non-cancelable low damage ender to be full combo punishable. And if F243 has to stay unsafe, then make F2 or F24 -2 or -3 so Kotal has a real stagger.

Take the gap out of B223 - B2 is a high and -16 on block, B22 is -15. With the gap in B223, the string is fully unsafe and really only useful as a whiff punish. Taking out the gap won't even change that because you can still flawless block the last hit, but at least that takes some kind of work.

Make F3 14f - I know ppl want F1 mid but I think this is more fair. You can't hit confirm F3 into a combo but it does have more range than F1. So after a D1 on hit, F3 becomes a decent check into low damage with F34 or a combo off of an unsafe, hard commit to F3 DF2

Make F12 plus on hit - No explanation really needed. Why tf should you be minus after hitting someone with an 11f high?

Make 4 mid - It's single hit and doesn't combo into or from anything. On block, though, it has amazing pushback. As a mid, it wouldn't have any kind of incredible offensive power, but would be something that can be used to get space back in close-mid range situations.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
At this point, I'd like to see QoL frame changes sort of similar to how they approached him in MKX.

Make F243 safe - F2 and F24 are both -7 so there's no real stagger game there, just very unsafe quake and D1 disrespect gimmicks. No reason for a non-cancelable low damage ender to be full combo punishable. And if F243 has to stay unsafe, then make F2 or F24 -2 or -3 so Kotal has a real stagger.

Take the gap out of B223 - B2 is a high and -16 on block, B22 is -15. With the gap in B223, the string is fully unsafe and really only useful as a whiff punish. Taking out the gap won't even change that because you can still flawless block the last hit, but at least that takes some kind of work.

Make F3 14f - I know ppl want F1 mid but I think this is more fair. You can't hit confirm F3 into a combo but it does have more range than F1. So after a D1 on hit, F3 becomes a decent check into low damage with F34 or a combo off of an unsafe, hard commit to F3 DF2

Make F12 plus on hit - No explanation really needed. Why tf should you be minus after hitting someone with an 11f high?

Make 4 mid - It's single hit and doesn't combo into or from anything. On block, though, it has amazing pushback. As a mid, it wouldn't have any kind of incredible offensive power, but would be something that can be used to get space back in close-mid range situations.
F24 does have a stagger game and I'd rather 3 was unsafe. You can mix opponents up with FB, kahn cut for opponents who push buttons right after, unblockable or command grab for those who don't. I just think there's no point in making 3 safe.

Agreed, lets us get away with b22 parry on block as a gimmick, instead of 7f jab chars just doing their 11xspecial cancel anyway.

F3 was a tick throw at the start of the game but was bugged. 200% sure we're getting it back, so I don't think they're gonna make it any faster. F3 is already a great check for a D1 on hit, this was recent discussion in the discord. D1 into command grab is your best "mid", F3 will catch jumpers airborne for a 230 dmg combo and will still beat low pokes that aren't frame perfect 6f ones.

Agreed on the rest.
 

chief713

Vertebral Subluxationist
F24 does have a stagger game and I'd rather 3 was unsafe. You can mix opponents up with FB, kahn cut for opponents who push buttons right after, unblockable or command grab for those who don't. I just think there's no point in making 3 safe.

Agreed, lets us get away with b22 parry on block as a gimmick, instead of 7f jab chars just doing their 11xspecial cancel anyway.

F3 was a tick throw at the start of the game but was bugged. 200% sure we're getting it back, so I don't think they're gonna make it any faster. F3 is already a great check for a D1 on hit, this was recent discussion in the discord. D1 into command grab is your best "mid", F3 will catch jumpers airborne for a 230 dmg combo and will still beat low pokes that aren't frame perfect 6f ones.

Agreed on the rest.
That's a good point on F3, it probably doesn't need the speed. And if F3 tick was the ONLY buff we got period, I probably wouldn't even be mad.
 

ChoseDeath

Seriously Casual Player.
Premium Supporter
I saved a few matches I'm going to upload for y'all to critique sometime soon. I went on a 5 ranked winning streak and was super pleased with myself, lol. I'm not very good, so you'll have plenty to tell me I did wrong!
 

ChoseDeath

Seriously Casual Player.
Premium Supporter
Also, my picture was a Kitana player that rage quit, and by God, @Qwark28 was right. Someone quitting or switching off Sonya or Erron vs Kotal is even better than winning!
 

DrFolmer

AKA Uncle Kano
Starting to have Kotal as a secondary. But fuck his combos are hard to do online, and the gazillion recovery on every normal means he dies
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
Need some help with Kotal. Does he get anything off his D1 besides throw? S2 doesn’t seem to reach? Is there a use for S4? I know it’s a high but it’s still relatively fast and reaches far too and only -1 on block. Is it a good tool?
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
Also is the cat enter any good? Seems they can just breakway punish very easily off the move itself, especially in the corner. I know it does more damage and puts kotal at F2 range, but doesn’t the sword enter also do that without amplify in midscreen?
 

Malec

Noob
After 2 months now, here are the adjustments I think Kotal Kahn needs and are fair to ask, that wouldn't make him op

S1 and D1 increased hitbox, the range on both is to stubby and that makes poking/conter poking and his basic punishment a pain in the ass

F1 recovery on hit and block needs to be improved a lot, I would like to use F1 to extend combos or to stagger, but the recovery makes it impossible

God Ray recovery also needs to be improved

Range on command throw should be increased, add a couple of tick throw (F1 or F3 and S3) possibilities and let me chose sides, at least on the amped version

F2 needs more active frames