General/Other - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn General Discussion

[Belial]

114 2nd hit will at certain ranges wiff on people releasing block ducking and even ducking normally. I sort of abuse that string so people learned to.
1~Cgrab will also wiff after 1 at certain ranges
So I dont think 1~Cgrab is a good idea really.
Also recovery is so terrible that its punishable on wiff even if people do not know MU at all.

 

[Qwark28]

114 2nd hit will at certain ranges wiff on people releasing block ducking and even ducking normally. I sort of abuse that string so people learned to.
1~Cgrab will also wiff after 1 at certain ranges
So I dont think 1~Cgrab is a good idea really.
Also recovery is so terrible that its punishable on wiff even if people do not know MU at all.

Off of jump ins it never whiffs.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

@ETC AdmiralAugustus, I get you. Sun god doesn't feel as viable as you'd like, because he's not, except as perhaps a counter pick or a way to exploit an opponent's lack of knowledge, so you offered up a reasonable buff. Unlike B1, F1 doesn't whiff and it travels further, so it would give you more consistent options as a SG player. Plus, it's frames are already in line to be tick throw, so it's actually a bit surprising it isn't.

Now, will the devs ever see this thread or decide to revisit SG? Hard to say. They have so many variations to balance, and they've already given SG some love, so if they do, it will likely be awhile.

As for people arguing just to argue on this site, yes, that does seem to happen rather often, which is unfortunate, as it devolves threads, making people less likely to check them or participate. True, when you post something as hypothetical as you have, people are bound to have various opinions, as opposed to the response you'd get if you offered up tech or discussed a recent trend, like Mr. Aquaman's use of D4 cancels into AA Grab to pressure his opponent. However, where else are you going to have this conversation? Most people you know likely wouldn't have a clue what meant, so, understandably, you come here. Should you need to defend your opinion? Of course. But at the end of the day, this thread exists because we all like Kotal and want to get better with him, so let's use it for that purpose, with some hypotheticals thrown in for the fun/hope of it.

Speaking of, there were two strong Kotal's playing at The Commonwealth yesterday: Mr Aquaman and Kush, but both lost to Quans (i.e. Aquaman to REO and Kush to Michaelangelo). Obviously, they both lost to another player as well, but I believe Quan to be one of Kotal's worst match ups, so I thought it would be useful to discuss. You can see Aqua vs. REO at 2:44:00 and Kush vs. Michaelangelo at 7:19:00 (7:20:50 with Kotal):

http://www.twitch.tv/digitalprosports/v/5880691

What do you think they could have done better? I know Kush only recently picked up War God (I played his Sun God at Combo Breaker), but Aqua has been running WG the whole time, and he did noticeably better than Kush in the Quan match. What was the difference?

Interested to hear your thoughts.

 

[RYX]

NRS needs to stop balancing Sun and Blood God around War God's existence. That's the first step to getting things we've actually asked for (nobody asked for faster recovery on totems/scorch, we wanted Blood Totem fixed and better normals)

This happens to a lot of characters and it makes the point of variations almost redundant

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

If NRS is gonna make Sun God a grappler variation of Kotal, they need to make him as scary as a grappler should be. I feel he is almost there, and just needs a few tweaks to actually be a threat to a variety of the cast and a contender in high level play. In my opinion, he needs more ticks. Plain and simple.

If he's gonna have that incredibly atrocious whiff recovery, he needs more avenues to "tick off". In my eyes, NRS should either leave his "ticks" as is, and buff the recovery, or leave the recovery and add more tick throw options. Why is that such a huge problem?

@RYX I think you're right. War God is it's own monster, but in the highest level of play, it seems to be the only monster. NRS should buff around what SG and BG need, not WG.

@Jeffrey Wolf I do not understand why it doesn't tick in the first place as well. Also, I haven't played against many Quan's, but I know exploiting armor in his gaps is a great place to start. B3,2 xx EX Rune is interruptable before the EX Rune. And after the EX Rune you are able to armor through the following mixup (B2, B32)

This makes it hard for BG because BG, if I'm not mistaken, has no armored reversals.

@Qwark28 I think you need to stop arguing with people just because it didn't come from you. You can be a very abrasive person and I don't think it contributes to discussion, but more-so take away from it. Trust me, I joined this site back in 2011 when you did. We're OGs. Your suggestion of B1 > D1, B12 > combo was great, but that actually wasn't what I was saying I ultimately wanted. I wanted another threat outside of B1, and you told me to use B1 > D1? Alright. I want a fast advancing normal with good range that I could tick from. That's all. Not an answer on what to do if they block B1. You then proceeded to say, "If you want to play a less narrow feeling character, play Kano". Well fuck me for wanting to have a character I love become better. My bad, Lord Qwark. (And I do play Kano already) Again, bud, this is only for Sun God. Don't go nuts shoving words in my mouth that this is the only buff I want for Kotal.

 

[Shark Tank]

I'm not against more ticks for kotal. Lyme disease is mostly moot in 2015

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

@ETC AdmiralAugustus, thank you for the info about Quan's interrupts. I knew the first, but not the second.

As for Sun God ticks, if you truly want to be competitive with him, you'll need to learn the option select, as that will make his grab recovery much less of a problem.

 

[RYX]

@ETC AdmiralAugustus

to be fair Blood God still has parry (try not to laugh), though with the frame advantage Quan has it might need to be EX parry. Depending how slow Quan B2 recovers he could maybe blow it up, but Quan can just keep doing B32~EX rune and not care because Kotal can't parry anything that hits multiple times without spending a shit ton of meter.

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

@ETC AdmiralAugustus, thank you for the info about Quan's interrupts. I knew the first, but not the second.

As for Sun God ticks, if you truly want to be competitive with him, you'll need to learn the option select, as that will make his grab recovery much less of a problem.

Oh yeah, for sure. I option select a lot off B1, but I feel B1 is the best standing normal to tick off, and it's very narrow. By adding F1 you will add so much more in the threat department. Assuming these option selects won't be patched out, you can have a great one off F1 xx Sun Choke on block and F1, B2 on hit. With the great range and speed, it would be a huge threat.

Glad I could help with Quan. Double check me on those interrupts, but I have been blown up by EX Shocker with Raiden before trying to do B3,2 after EX Rune - and this was in the corner on what I felt the first frame possible. EX Rune is what, +14?

@ETC AdmiralAugustus

to be fair Blood God still has parry (try not to laugh), though with the frame advantage Quan has it might need to be EX parry. Depending how slow Quan B2 recovers he could maybe blow it up, but Quan can just keep doing B32~EX rune and not care because Kotal can't parry anything that hits multiple times without spending a shit ton of meter.

I'm trying...

But for real, Blood God seems like a horrible matchup against Quan, and it truly is a bummer that this variation doesn't have something more reliable than EX Parry.

 

[RYX]

I'm trying...

But for real, Blood God seems like a horrible matchup against Quan, and it truly is a bummer that this variation doesn't have something more reliable than EX Parry.

Blood God is really miserable vs anyone who can stop him from ever getting a totem out. If he ever can manage it, Obsidian is pretty much the only one I'd ever use, maybe Crystal if you read they're going to do something desperate, but you definitely want to stop him from chipping/eating your health bar with his vortex.

Definitely his most lacking variation, but still semi usable.

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

Blood God is really miserable vs anyone who can stop him from ever getting a totem out. If he ever can manage it, Obsidian is pretty much the only one I'd ever use, maybe Crystal if you read they're going to do something desperate, but you definitely want to stop him from chipping/eating your health bar with his vortex.

Definitely his most lacking variation, but still semi usable.

Agreed, all of his variations seem great, but BG does seem the weakest. Has the list for normals and strings on block expanded since the totem recovery buff? Or is it still 114 and 4?

 

[RYX]

Agreed, all of his variations seem great, but BG does seem the weakest. Has the list for normals and strings on block expanded since the totem recovery buff? Or is it still 114 and 4?

Pretty much yeah, everything else is still punishable.

I think Blood God should've had a command grab. Doesn't make any sense that he wouldn't Blood Sacrifice the opponent for some cutting action. That could be his new variation specific parry though.

 

[Qwark28]

If NRS is gonna make Sun God a grappler variation of Kotal, they need to make him as scary as a grappler should be. I feel he is almost there, and just needs a few tweaks to actually be a threat to a variety of the cast and a contender in high level play. In my opinion, he needs more ticks. Plain and simple.

If he's gonna have that incredibly atrocious whiff recovery, he needs more avenues to "tick off". In my eyes, NRS should either leave his "ticks" as is, and buff the recovery, or leave the recovery and add more tick throw options. Why is that such a huge problem?

@RYX I think you're right. War God is it's own monster, but in the highest level of play, it seems to be the only monster. NRS should buff around what SG and BG need, not WG.

@Jeffrey Wolf I do not understand why it doesn't tick in the first place as well. Also, I haven't played against many Quan's, but I know exploiting armor in his gaps is a great place to start. B3,2 xx EX Rune is interruptable before the EX Rune. And after the EX Rune you are able to armor through the following mixup (B2, B32)

This makes it hard for BG because BG, if I'm not mistaken, has no armored reversals.

@Qwark28 I think you need to stop arguing with people just because it didn't come from you. You can be a very abrasive person and I don't think it contributes to discussion, but more-so take away from it. Trust me, I joined this site back in 2011 when you did. We're OGs. Your suggestion of B1 > D1, B12 > combo was great, but that actually wasn't what I was saying I ultimately wanted. I wanted another threat outside of B1, and you told me to use B1 > D1? Alright. I want a fast advancing normal with good range that I could tick from. That's all. Not an answer on what to do if they block B1. You then proceeded to say, "If you want to play a less narrow feeling character, play Kano". Well fuck me for wanting to have a character I love become better. My bad, Lord Qwark. (And I do play Kano already) Again, bud, this is only for Sun God. Don't go nuts shoving words in my mouth that this is the only buff I want for Kotal.

I don't think you're understanding my point but I also want you to know I'm not saying what I say in an aggressive manner.

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

Pretty much yeah, everything else is still punishable.

I think Blood God should've had a command grab. Doesn't make any sense that he wouldn't Blood Sacrifice the opponent for some cutting action. That could be his new variation specific parry though.

Make parry a Blood Sacrifice parry that takes life. EX has armor and pops up for a combo (A man can dream!!!!)

I don't think you're understanding my point but I also want you to know I'm not saying what I say in an aggressive manner.

Alright, well please tell me your point.

 

[Qwark28]

Make parry a Blood Sacrifice parry that takes life. EX has armor and pops up for a combo (A man can dream!!!!)



Alright, well please tell me your point.

My point is that B1

Can be tick thrown into
You can make a read and catch backdashes
You can low profile after
You can D1 to interrupt buttons and anti air jumps at the same time while you convert to 35%+ with a bar
Can be continued into B122

F1 would be the exact same thing but unsafe incase you end with B2.

What more do you want?

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

My point is that B1

Can be tick thrown into
You can make a read and catch backdashes
You can low profile after
You can D1 to interrupt buttons and anti air jumps at the same time while you convert to 35%+ with a bar
Can be continued into B122

F1 would be the exact same thing but unsafe incase you end with B2.

What more do you want?

Great options. I want more range, and it wouldn't be unsafe with an option select.

 

[Qwark28]

Great options. I want more range, and it wouldn't be unsafe with an option select.

Neither is B122.

And we come to what I originally said, he doesn't need it. He would be better off with a million different changes because range on his tick throws became of any concern. Like actually choosing where a L3 choke sends your opponent.

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

Neither is B122.

And we come to what I originally said, he doesn't need it. He would be better off with a million different changes because range on his tick throws became of any concern. Like actually choosing where a L3 choke sends your opponent.

Qwark, I'm done lol. Agree to disagree. Sorry for even mentioning anything in this thread.

 

[Qwark28]

Footage of a small tournament we had.

http://www.twitch.tv/zaelock/b/666868758

@ casuals before it, I start playing 29 mins in http://www.twitch.tv/zaelock/b/666816560

 

[Belial]

NRS needs to stop balancing Sun and Blood God around War God's existence. That's the first step to getting things we've actually asked for (nobody asked for faster recovery on totems/scorch, we wanted Blood Totem fixed and better normals)

This happens to a lot of characters and it makes the point of variations almost redundant

I fear NRS has some grand design in mind thats why they try to force their vision of the character upon us instead of making it actually playable.
These characters just do not have the tools to be good, in these cases the only way to balance character is to break it. He has to completely dominate one aspect of the game to make up for him lacking in other aspects.

If you really want to enforce totem/throw game instead actually giving KK proper tools you would have to break totem and throw. i.e give totem 3x time duration or make throw deal 25% etc. That way the character will be broken and that would make him playable despite his flaws.
You cannot possible ty to "balance" character without adressing his fundamental weaknesses. It never worked in previous FGs it will not work now.

 

[KeyserSoze]

I fear NRS has some grand design in mind thats why they try to force their vision of the character upon us instead of making it actually playable.
.

Although I personally believe that, following the latest patch, Blood God is considerably better than he is being given credit for in this forum, I also definitely have noticed your point about NRS being stubbornly tied to an overall character design. NRS very rarely patches characters in ways that would alter their fundamental play styles . . . even if it means failing to balance the character.

A classic, quintessential example of this is them buffing Joker's (ill-conceived, hopelessly designed) parry months and months after it was beyond obvious to every Joker main in the world (myself included) that his parry was a lost cause. It's almost as if their number 1 goal was to encourage people to use his trait at all costs, instead of making him more competitively viable (which, by the way, merely making his F2 an overhead and his gunshot a mid, would have accomplished)

 

[Lanqu]

Playing SG or BG KK feels like all or nothing. I cant remember games where opponent and me are close with our lifebars. Almost each time match ends with great HP advantage or disadvantage. I think that is drawback of disbalance. Exceptional damage without any tools leads to sudden death or sudden win. Its defenitely not what the competitive play is focused on.

 

[RYX]

Kotal's b2 is so awful, ugh. Doesn't even low crush like the animation might suggest; if you get hit by anything, the game registers you as standing, so you can get full combo'd on the start-up through the entire thing.

IMO to better balance out War God's massive gains, he should lose more than just the parry. Take away Sun Ray and Blood Offering to give you better incentive to choose other variations, with small recovery improvements to make them more appealing to use in general.

 

[Qwark28]

Kotal's b2 is so awful, ugh. Doesn't even low crush like the animation might suggest; if you get hit by anything, the game registers you as standing, so you can get full combo'd on the start-up through the entire thing.

IMO to better balance out War God's massive gains, he should lose more than just the parry. Take away Sun Ray and Blood Offering to give you better incentive to choose other variations, with small recovery improvements to make them more appealing to use in general.

I use B2 to low crush mileena's roll, low wakeups, pokes etc. It definitely avoids lows.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

B2 is odd, as I've experienced both scenarios you two mention (@RYX & @Qwark28). However, it definitely seems to lean toward the suck side of things.