General/Other - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn General Discussion

[Fattius]

^As a grappler fo' life, I approve of this discussion. Still holding out hope that Tremor brings something to the table but in the meantime who is everyone leaning toward being the best grappler in the game currently? Sun God has its flaws but I'd looking to me like it might be the way to go if things don't change and Tremor doesn't end up bringing the pain. I like Wrestler Jax too but I don't really use him like a grappler at all...

I am really liking Sun God and some Lackey it feels like a tie between the two they both have their uses.

 

[RYX]

^As a grappler fo' life, I approve of this discussion. Still holding out hope that Tremor brings something to the table but in the meantime who is everyone leaning toward being the best grappler in the game currently? Sun God has its flaws but I'd looking to me like it might be the way to go if things don't change and Tremor doesn't end up bringing the pain. I like Wrestler Jax too but I don't really use him like a grappler at all...

As a true grappler probably Commando Kano. Much better momentum and counter-aggression with superior parries

Sun God has the highest damage output but the worst pressure in comparison to Lackey Torr and the above. should consider Goro as well, if 'grappler' means anyone who likes using their command grab often. strong 50/50s off of anything that can tick throw between command grab and punchwalk

 

[Shonuff]

Im seeing a LOT of people saying they whiff Kotals Sun Choke grab and you shouldn't be whiffing. If you are your doing it wrong.

I connect 90% of my chokes via ticks, its disgusting how effective this is and I get a lot of hate for it online, I don't try gimmicks, I count frames. That's how you use the move. Crouch jab then activate the grab as they recover, if they do anything that either has no armor or start up frames is too long, you get the grab. Always. This is not to say its in escapable. Like Zangief, if he tick throws you with his pile driver in street fighter you can predict it and jump.

But that's the thing, its about mind games, you have to learn to condition your opponent to do stupid stuff. If they start learning, adapt to their fear. He has a anti-air command grab which would counter a jump. You can also use his Parry if you think they might retaliate with a fast attack then punish them, or use armor. He has all kinds of answers for different things but trying to yolo it by combing puts you at a greater risk.

 

[Hellbringer]

Im seeing a LOT of people saying they whiff Kotals Sun Choke grab and you shouldn't be whiffing. If you are your doing it wrong.

I connect 90% of my chokes via ticks, its disgusting how effective this is and I get a lot of hate for it online, I don't try gimmicks, I count frames. That's how you use the move. Crouch jab then activate the grab as they recover, if they do anything that either has no armor or start up frames is too long, you get the grab. Always. This is not to say its in escapable. Like Zangief, if he tick throws you with his pile driver in street fighter you can predict it and jump.

But that's the thing, its about mind games, you have to learn to condition your opponent to do stupid stuff. If they start learning, adapt to their fear. He has a anti-air command grab which would counter a jump. You can also use his Parry if you think they might retaliate with a fast attack then punish them, or use armor. He has all kinds of answers for different things but trying to yolo it by combing puts you at a greater risk.

This guy here has it right.

 

[countrypistol]

Throw immunity always has been and always will be dumb as fuck. The ONLY throw immunity that should exist is teching the damned throw.

I'm so glad I stumbled across this. I keep having problems with Kano and Jason whiffing throws at point blank range on standing/stand blocking/crouch blocking opponents, I was beginning to wonder if I understood what throws were actually for! Thought I'd check Kotal to see if he has this issue, what with him having a different input, and lo and behold he does. Does anybody know if this is deliberate (not being able to throw opponents during certain recovery frames, throws whiffing on standing opponents within throw range, etc), or a bug?

As for the teching, I don't mind the neutral crouch defence as it takes balls/a solid read/blind luck to pull it off. Other than that I agree, and would like to add that teching should not require a DIRECTIONAL INPUT!

 

[countrypistol]

Im seeing a LOT of people saying they whiff Kotals Sun Choke grab and you shouldn't be whiffing. If you are your doing it wrong.

I connect 90% of my chokes via ticks, its disgusting how effective this is and I get a lot of hate for it online, I don't try gimmicks, I count frames. That's how you use the move. Crouch jab then activate the grab as they recover, if they do anything that either has no armor or start up frames is too long, you get the grab. Always. This is not to say its in escapable. Like Zangief, if he tick throws you with his pile driver in street fighter you can predict it and jump.

But that's the thing, its about mind games, you have to learn to condition your opponent to do stupid stuff. If they start learning, adapt to their fear. He has a anti-air command grab which would counter a jump. You can also use his Parry if you think they might retaliate with a fast attack then punish them, or use armor. He has all kinds of answers for different things but trying to yolo it by combing puts you at a greater risk.

I get that you can't throw opponents in hit stun/block stun, but I've noticed instances where I've whiffed point blank on stand blocking opponents who are not in hit stun/block stun. Is there something I'm missing here?

 

[Qwark28]

1) None of those threads was what I was looking for.
2) Have you played grapplers in other games? None of those tick grabs are good with the exception of b1 getting the best mileage.
3) lol what are these situations you're talking about? Besides on the opponents wake up he doesn't have them. In neutral the only way a good opponent is going to fear command grab is b1 ...except if they decide not to block, then Kotal get punished for it. What grappler gets punished because his opponent wants to press buttons? It should be the reverse.
4) I'll say it again since it seems like only shark tank got what I was saying. Sun God isn't a bad character, but he doesn't fit the "grappler archetype". He's just a man with a command grab.

I have played a lot of different games, NRS/Capcom/Namco etc. This is the way strings work in NRS games.

Let me get this straight, you just pick up Kotal Kahn, come here and start the people who have been playing him for quite some time how his tick grabs aren't good because you don't know how to use them and that the setups I use against offline competition, one of it's players who recently went to the ESL fan choice tournaments, are bad and not worth doing? You're telling me you would press buttons after I've hit you with a D4 and am threatening to F2 you for half your lifebar? After a poke up close on hit? After your poke is blocked or your negative string is? It's obvious you don't get the character and need to invest a lot of time into him.

You seem to congest the concept of a grappler to SF and I don't understand why you'd ask me if I play other fighting games since Tekken also has the same command grab ideology other than the fact Kotal has "mini combos" of 19% from L3 sun choke and someone like King has 80% command grab combos with multiple small windows to tech.

And honestly, what the fuck is a "true" grappler? Zangief? Because grapplers are different in NRS games, Capcom games, Namco games, IG games, Guilty Gear series etc.

There is no "model" of a grappler besides having a command grab and certain frame data to enforce it. It's easy to see though which character were just given a command grab and told not to play far from the sidewalk. Sun god is not such a character and Kano @RYX certainly isn't, IDK how you even came to that conclusion. If we're talking SF terms then nothing that can't churn butter in between links is a "true" grappler.

 

[Qwark28]

Im seeing a LOT of people saying they whiff Kotals Sun Choke grab and you shouldn't be whiffing. If you are your doing it wrong.

I connect 90% of my chokes via ticks, its disgusting how effective this is and I get a lot of hate for it online, I don't try gimmicks, I count frames. That's how you use the move. Crouch jab then activate the grab as they recover, if they do anything that either has no armor or start up frames is too long, you get the grab. Always. This is not to say its in escapable. Like Zangief, if he tick throws you with his pile driver in street fighter you can predict it and jump.

But that's the thing, its about mind games, you have to learn to condition your opponent to do stupid stuff. If they start learning, adapt to their fear. He has a anti-air command grab which would counter a jump. You can also use his Parry if you think they might retaliate with a fast attack then punish them, or use armor. He has all kinds of answers for different things but trying to yolo it by combing puts you at a greater risk.

Fighting games aren't for everyone.

 

[RYX]

i think you have enough advantage off of every level of choke to safely cast scorch

i need to get in the habit of using it more, but i love this 19% command grab :[

 

[SEV]

Finally started using Sun God over the past week and I really haven't used Scorch once because I don't want to lose the bonus damage on the command grab. I'll either lose the first round and feel like I need that bonus damage to help win the second to see the third, or I win the first round and I feel like I might as well keep level 3 to try to close it out in the second round.

Do you guys basically only cash out in hairy situations to make sure you can have 2 bars to break if needed?

 

[sinosleep]

I'm so glad I stumbled across this. I keep having problems with Kano and Jason whiffing throws at point blank range on standing/stand blocking/crouch blocking opponents, I was beginning to wonder if I understood what throws were actually for! Thought I'd check Kotal to see if he has this issue, what with him having a different input, and lo and behold he does. Does anybody know if this is deliberate (not being able to throw opponents during certain recovery frames, throws whiffing on standing opponents within throw range, etc), or a bug?

As for the teching, I don't mind the neutral crouch defence as it takes balls/a solid read/blind luck to pull it off. Other than that I agree, and would like to add that teching should not require a DIRECTIONAL INPUT!

I was mostly a Tekken junkie until Injustice came out so I can't really speak for NRS as far as MK9 went, but throw immunity sure as shit was an intentional thing in Injustice. They actually had patch notes about removing throw immunity from projectile moves in one of the injustice patches. So while I know it was DEFINITELY a thing in Injustice and it appears to be a thing in MKX, I still don't want to to just consider it an NRS thing.

I mean, there's no such thing as jab or poke immunity right? You either have to block or armor. I don't see why throws should be any different. You either tech it or you beat it it out with a fast frame move. Throw immunity shouldn't be a thing.

 

[Shark Tank]

I think John E is grapplericst. At least it seems to less prevalent.

 

[PoweredbyProtein]

I have played a lot of different games, NRS/Capcom/Namco etc. This is the way strings work in NRS games.

Let me get this straight, you just pick up Kotal Kahn, come here and start the people who have been playing him for quite some time how his tick grabs aren't good because you don't know how to use them and that the setups I use against offline competition, one of it's players who recently went to the ESL fan choice tournaments, are bad and not worth doing? You're telling me you would press buttons after I've hit you with a D4 and am threatening to F2 you for half your lifebar? After a poke up close on hit? After your poke is blocked or your negative string is? It's obvious you don't get the character and need to invest a lot of time into him.

*Sigh* Once again I never said he's bad. It's that barely any of them put the opponent in a situation to fear command grab and get punished for it. The few that do are made less effective by the fact that if they hit and Kotal committed to command grab he's at a disadvantage. I'm not saying a good player will be mashing while knowing the risks, but going for a tick grab in situation where the opponent didn't happen to block gets you punished. I've seen this happen to the Sun Gods that place in tournaments and I'm sure you've seen it to. It's set up so that's it's possible to get punished for landing a hit. What is that?
Also, where did I say it wasn't worth doing? Don't put words into my mouth.

You seem to congest the concept of a grappler to SF and I don't understand why you'd ask me if I play other fighting games since Tekken also has the same command grab ideology other than the fact Kotal has "mini combos" of 19% from L3 sun choke and someone like King has 80% command grab combos with multiple small windows to tech.

I'm actually mainly a player of airdashers, but ok. Also, did you just say the ideology of grapplers in Tekken is the same as those in 2D fighters? Damn, you're losing credibility fast.

And honestly, what the fuck is a "true" grappler? Zangief? Because grapplers are different in NRS games, Capcom games, Namco games, IG games, Guilty Gear series etc.

A character of the grappler archetype makes the opponent fear command grab and then punishes them for trying to escape it. All 2D grapplers follow this with the exception of Mortal Kombat. I don't even know why Namco is in this discussion when it's a 3D fighter and grapplers in that game are their own thing.

There is no "model" of a grappler besides having a command grab and certain frame data to enforce it. It's easy to see though which character were just given a command grab and told not to play far from the sidewalk. Sun god is not such a character and Kano @RYX certainly isn't, IDK how you even came to that conclusion. If we're talking SF terms then nothing that can't churn butter in between links is a "true" grappler.

Once again, it's to make the opponent fear command grab and punish them for trying to escape it. Unib, Kof, P4U, BB, GG, BF, MB, SF, SG, Aquapazza, Arcana Hearts, VS, JJBA, Garou, etc. etc. etc. all follow this model... with the exception of MK. I'm sure you can figure out what that means, smart guy.

 

[Qwark28]

*Sigh* Once again I never said he's bad. It's that barely any of them put the opponent in a situation to fear command grab and get punished for it. The few that do are made less effective by the fact that if they hit and Kotal committed to command grab he's at a disadvantage. I'm not saying a good player will be mashing while knowing the risks, but going for a tick grab in situation where the opponent didn't happen to block gets you punished. I've seen this happen to the Sun Gods that place in tournaments and I'm sure you've seen it to. It's set up so that's it's possible to get punished for landing a hit. What is that?
Also, where did I say it wasn't worth doing? Don't put words into my mouth.


I'm actually mainly a player of airdashers, but ok. Also, did you just say the ideology of grapplers in Tekken is the same as those in 2D fighters? Damn, you're losing credibility fast.


A character of the grappler archetype makes the opponent fear command grab and then punishes them for trying to escape it. All 2D grapplers follow this with the exception of Mortal Kombat. I don't even know why Namco is in this discussion when it's a 3D fighter and grapplers in that game are their own thing.


Once again, it's to make the opponent fear command grab and punish them for trying to escape it. Unib, Kof, P4U, BB, GG, BF, MB, SF, SG, Aquapazza, Arcana Hearts, VS, JJBA, Garou, etc. etc. etc. all follow this model... with the exception of MK. I'm sure you can figure out what that means, smart guy.

Because there is nothing to fear about a long range 19% command grab that can be done from normals almost too fast to react or ones that reach far. I know you didn't understand it the first time but I said I have no problem doing everything you just described in my offline scene, where Nivek just went to the US and there are a lot more players just like him here. A read is needed to do a command grab, this should be nothing new and if you can't condition someone with the normals of Kotal then you're beyond hopeless.

I haven't seen sun gods in tournaments, barely any more than 1 and their level of play wasn't high whatsoever.

"None of those tick grabs are good" You should read what you write or have the capacity to understand implications. Read it a second and third time, think about what has already been said and don't let emotions make your post come off as a 10 year old's drunken meth-induced hallucinations in text form.

I just compared the combo aspect of king's throws with kotal's, where did you see a "general" 2d fighter comparison? Don't read whatever you conjure up. You come in here stating faults about a character you have no idea about and haven't played for more than a few hours overall while experienced players tell you it's not a problem and he that he has the toolset to make such a system on whiff/hit/block work and instead you cling to your inexperienced opinion.

 

[PoweredbyProtein]

Because there is nothing to fear about a long range 19% command grab that can be done from normals almost too fast to react or ones that reach far. I know you didn't understand it the first time but I said I have no problem doing everything you just described in my offline scene, where Nivek just went to the US and there are a lot more players just like him here. A read is needed to do a command grab, this should be nothing new and if you can't condition someone with the normals of Kotal then you're beyond hopeless.

I don't think you can read and comprehend very well can you? It isn't that command grab is terrible. It's that Sun God doesn't have a lot of tools that put you in a situation to have to worry about it, and due to the nature of how strings work it's possible for him to get punished for landing a hit. I also like how you assume I can't land command grab and make stories in your head to suit your purposes. My only point is that he is lacking as a character of the "grappler archetype".
How are your Jimmies so rustled from a statement with no malice? Hell, it was even originally a question.

I haven't seen sun gods in tournaments, barely any more than 1 and their level of play wasn't high whatsoever.

Yet Sun God is perfectly fine as a grappler, that's why you haven't seen anyone particularly high level with him. Btw, for the brief stint of Pr Balrog playing this game he played sun god and attended a few locals. Never got 1st place and he had instances where he was punished for landing a hit. Wait, are you going to tell me Pr Balrog can't condition his opponents next?

"None of those tick grabs are good" You should read what you write or have the capacity to understand implications. Read it a second and third time, think about what has already been said and don't let emotions make your post come off as a 10 year old's drunken meth-induced hallucinations in text form.

I explained what I was referring to in an earlier post. Go back and re read. On the DL. You know what a drunk 10 yeer old on meth would do. Start insulting someone because of a character conversation. A good sign your in the wrong is when you have to start flinging hate.

I just compared the combo aspect of king's throws with kotal's, where did you see a "general" 2d fighter comparison? Don't read whatever you conjure up. You come in here stating faults about a character you have no idea about and haven't played for more than a few hours overall while experienced players tell you it's not a problem and he that he has the toolset to make such a system on whiff/hit/block work and instead you cling to your inexperienced opinion.

You said that they have same "Ideology". Afterwards you did mention combos, so I'll chalk it up to an ill choice of words. Remember how I wasn't asking for combos or tick grabs, but situational tech? Now who would already know those things about a character? Perhaps someone that had had him for a sub since day 1 and it wasn't that now he was picking him up, but that rather he was was simply taking him more seriously and had run into the problem that made it so even one of the greatest FG players of all time, PR balrog, lost to players less skilled than him and had instances of being screwed by his own moveset. You have created a story of who I am to suit your purposes. Also by "inexperienced" I assume you meant as a Sun God player. If it as a general FG player I'm about to laugh at you.
Also take note of the fact that you're the only person here arguing with me about this. There are more people who see the faults with command grab than not, and people have agreed that Kotal doesn't fit the 2D grappler Model.
First you say there's no model for grapplers, and then I blow you up. Then I state the fault in it being a possibility to get punished for landing a hit and your response is. "Nah, fuck you". What's your angle here?

 

[Shark Tank]

Just to clear what I meant before here I don't necessarily say that Kotal isn't a "grappler" but you would have to define your definition of a grappler. People coming from 2d backgrounds usually say it's a character who utterly relies on throws for the majority of their damage, well I usually here that when I ask. In that instance yes Kotal doesn't fit that archetype. Most NRS archetypes aren't extreme to the sense in other games, rushdown characters have projectiles, command throws characters have high lows and actual combos,zoners have 50/50 combos etc. Kotal's more a grappler lite if anything. I means he's not that characteristically dissimilar to a character like Abel who has a command throw but Abel doesn't necessarily rely on it for the majority of his damage, because he has crossup setsups, high damage off of footsies conversions, etc. So would he be a "grappler", i mean tt is a little scary but not scary in the sense of an SPD and he doesn't rely on it nearly as other grappler characters. It's basically a mix-up supplement tool which is essentially what Sun God Choke is. It is indeed scary but even scarier is getting hit by f2, kinda like it's even scarier to get hit by Abel f.mk. When many people say Kotal's a grappler they're usually speaking in NRS terms, ie he's an NRS "grappler". Quarks comparison to King is not bad since this game on a 2d plane does use 3d concepts so it's unsurprising it doesn't work like traditional 2d games. I wouldn't mind NRS throws to be able to be linked grounded but then you have to ask is it still okay to juggle into them? I don't feel like you can't give up something to get that in return.

 

[Belial]

Im not sure what's the discussion is, b/c "grappler" is sort of vague definition and everyone has their own idea about it.
So its sort of idiotic, really, to force your fantasy on other people.
Why does it even matter if he's a grappler or not? A character is either good or not (within a metagame). It has nothing to do with his RPG-class or whatever grappler is.

 

[Shark Tank]

Im not sure what's the discussion is, b/c "grappler" is sort of vague definition and everyone has their own idea about it.
So its sort of idiotic, really, to force your fantasy on other people.
Why does it even matter if he's a grappler or not? A character is either good or not (within a metagame). It has nothing to do with his RPG-class or whatever grappler is.

If Kotal is any RPG class he's a sun Paladin

 

[PoweredbyProtein]

Im not sure what's the discussion is, b/c "grappler" is sort of vague definition and everyone has their own idea about it.
So its sort of idiotic, really, to force your fantasy on other people.
Why does it even matter if he's a grappler or not? A character is either good or not (within a metagame). It has nothing to do with his RPG-class or whatever grappler is.

I'm not trying to force my fantasy onto anyone. We can agree that most all 2D grapplers follow a certain model, no? In every game a played a grappler was like that, with the exception of Kotal Kahn. So I came into this thread asking a question. If there was something I wasn't getting, as I couldn't get Sun God to work for me as every other grappler before. The answer was simple, NRS has they're own style of grappler that is different from the norm. I was close minded and looked for Sun God to follow the concept the others follow. If it was only Shark Tank and you replying, this would have been over already and I'd be on my way. Then this Quark lunatic felt the need to get on his high horse and act like I'd insulted someone he cares about. Now I don't even know what we're arguing about.

 

[SEV]

I don't think you can read and comprehend very well can you? It isn't that command grab is terrible. It's that Sun God doesn't have a lot of tools that put you in a situation to have to worry about it, and due to the nature of how strings work it's possible for him to get punished for landing a hit.

I've been playing a lot of Sun God over the past week, and even with only that weeks worth of experience I can tell you what you said here just isn't true. He has ample situations where you are forced to worry about it.

 

[Qwark28]

I don't think you can read and comprehend very well can you? It isn't that command grab is terrible. It's that Sun God doesn't have a lot of tools that put you in a situation to have to worry about it, and due to the nature of how strings work it's possible for him to get punished for landing a hit. I also like how you assume I can't land command grab and make stories in your head to suit your purposes. My only point is that he is lacking as a character of the "grappler archetype".
How are your Jimmies so rustled from a statement with no malice? Hell, it was even originally a question.

Yet Sun God is perfectly fine as a grappler, that's why you haven't seen anyone particularly high level with him. Btw, for the brief stint of Pr Balrog playing this game he played sun god and attended a few locals. Never got 1st place and he had instances where he was punished for landing a hit. Wait, are you going to tell me Pr Balrog can't condition his opponents next?

I explained what I was referring to in an earlier post. Go back and re read. On the DL. You know what a drunk 10 yeer old on meth would do. Start insulting someone because of a character conversation. A good sign your in the wrong is when you have to start flinging hate.


You said that they have same "Ideology". Afterwards you did mention combos, so I'll chalk it up to an ill choice of words. Remember how I wasn't asking for combos or tick grabs, but situational tech? Now who would already know those things about a character? Perhaps someone that had had him for a sub since day 1 and it wasn't that now he was picking him up, but that rather he was was simply taking him more seriously and had run into the problem that made it so even one of the greatest FG players of all time, PR balrog, lost to players less skilled than him and had instances of being screwed by his own moveset. You have created a story of who I am to suit your purposes. Also by "inexperienced" I assume you meant as a Sun God player. If it as a general FG player I'm about to laugh at you.
Also take note of the fact that you're the only person here arguing with me about this. There are more people who see the faults with command grab than not, and people have agreed that Kotal doesn't fit the 2D grappler Model.
First you say there's no model for grapplers, and then I blow you up. Then I state the fault in it being a possibility to get punished for landing a hit and your response is. "Nah, fuck you". What's your angle here?

Re-read my post. You don't seem to grasp it, and get thicker skin if you consider that an insult upon your ancestors or something.

I'm done with this conversation, this is like replying to a youtube comment.

 

[Belial]

We can agree that most all 2D grapplers follow a certain model, no?

No. You dont seem to realize it, but every game is different, game devs dont have any sort of "grappler" in their heads. All game mechanics are different etc etc. To debate something we must first settle on terminology and then decide if its even worth debating.

The reality is this.
1)We do not know the definition of "grappler" (On top of my head I can think of "a character who relies on grab as a main way to deal damage" if so Sun God falls into that category)
2)There is completely NO PRACTICAL POINT in debating whether Sun God is a grappler or no.

Therefore we will not discuss this anymore.

 

[Stoneshotz]

So I was playing online this morning and I discovered this:

 

[KingKhrystopher]

Never truly liked him. He's whatever.

 

[Shark Tank]

Never truly liked him. He's whatever.

Thanks for the input heretic.