Match-Up Discussion - Kano Kano's Ruthless Matchup Discussion Thread

[LEGI0N47]

great, thanks for savin' me a little work. I actually kind of firmly believe at this point that Kano players are going to find commando immensely effective against rushdown characters, they better start practicing those DBF motions now .

I admittedly don't put enough time into him and always drop those when the heat is on in a match

 

[FlappyDaniel]

I hear ya man. I've been playing exclusively him since launch and still drop them relatively often often when I'm on the left side of the screen.... makes for some derpy accidental F4s.

 

[Youphemism]

great, thanks for savin' me a little work. I actually kind of firmly believe at this point that Kano players are going to find commando immensely effective against rushdown characters, they better start practicing those DBF motions now .

I only found it out because my friend and I were in practice, he was Commando Kano just high parrying and I did F13. The F1 whiffed and he parried the 3 to which I went "WHAT?! But that's a low!" lol.

 

[cyke_out]

I haven't looked at another variation since getting hooked on cyber, but getting my ass kicked by any version of scorpion played by someone with a modicum of skill is making me rethink either commando or cutthroat.

 

[ando1184]

I haven't looked at another variation since getting hooked on cyber, but getting my ass kicked by any version of scorpion played by someone with a modicum of skill is making me rethink either commando or cutthroat.

I suggest going commando, cyber and commando are my mains but against anyone with a teleport, Kano can blow up with high counter in commando. It stuffs it even on a late read and stops the crazy shenanigans they try to get from it. Against scorpion, it makes him zone more and as long as you have the life lead, you win that battle because he takes more risks than you. If you block a low demon 3/4 screen you can run and get a command grab off on em and a combo at halfscreen.

 

[kabelfritz]

I haven't looked at another variation since getting hooked on cyber, but getting my ass kicked by any version of scorpion played by someone with a modicum of skill is making me rethink either commando or cutthroat.

imo against scorpion you are best off with cyber, because of his punishment potential, the better projectile and footsie tools. youre not gonna oki pressure scorpion a lot anyway.

 

[Youphemism]

imo against scorpion you are best off with cyber, because of his punishment potential, the better projectile and footsie tools. youre not gonna oki pressure scorpion a lot anyway.

Eh? No chance, Cutthroat is better.

 

[Derocus]

imo against scorpion you are best off with cyber, because of his punishment potential, the better projectile and footsie tools. youre not gonna oki pressure scorpion a lot anyway.

@Youphemism is right. Cutthroat can punish way harder. Plus, you can pressure scorps' pretty damn hard when he's on the ground. A lot of the time, if you start doing a string while he's on the ground, he'll ex a teleport, get an armour hit, then miss you because you're string has moved you forward; away from scorpion.

 

[Zatoichi]

Any tips on the Outlaw Erron Black match up with Commando or Cybernetic Kano? I don't touch Cutthroat that much.

 

[kabelfritz]

Eh? No chance, Cutthroat is better.

cutthroat relies on oki pressure too with its mixups, which scorpion pretty much says "no" to. id rather have the better knives which can catch his teleports quite often and keep him at bay better in general. scorpion has a pretty hard time in the neutral as soon as you shut his specials down, and thats where your cyber b2 comes into play. you can think cutthroat is better, but i dont. id do cutthroat against chars like quan chi, who you have to punish as hard as possible AND have a bad wakeup game.

 

[Youphemism]

Any tips on the Outlaw Erron Black match up with Commando or Cybernetic Kano? I don't touch Cutthroat that much.

I'd say keep it in Cybernetic for that matchup, Outlaw Erron is rushdown so you want him away from you at all times. Any time you read an EX slide throw out EX knives so you break the armour and hit him and keep him at full screen. Otherwise just keep zoning as much as possible and try and anti-air/trip-guard what jumps you can (most likely with B1). If he gets in and starts his mixups pray to god you guess right. If he throws out sand or something like F13 into sand and you block it, 112 into full combo punish. Once he's in he's pretty broke so you just have to keep him out the whole time.

 

[Youphemism]

cutthroat relies on oki pressure too with its mixups, which scorpion pretty much says "no" to. id rather have the better knives which can catch his teleports quite often and keep him at bay better in general. scorpion has a pretty hard time in the neutral as soon as you shut his specials down, and thats where your cyber b2 comes into play. you can think cutthroat is better, but i dont. id do cutthroat against chars like quan chi, who you have to punish as hard as possible AND have a bad wakeup game.

What do you mean "scorpion pretty much says "no" to" oki? If he doesn't have armour you can mix up however you want, and if he does have armour then both takedown and teleport at least are both punishable. The type of knives make no difference because Scorpion can still teleport for full combo so zoning him is going to be pretty useless. Scorpion has a hard time in the neutral?! Which Scorpions have you been playing? He does fine in the neutral. You want to do as much damage as possible to him when you can open him up and you need the mixups which is why you want Cutthroat. I would use Cutthroat against Quan too, just because you get hit by Scorpion's armoured wakeups (at least from what I can assume from what you're saying about his knockdown game because his other wakeups are shit and you should be beating them out every time) doesn't mean Cutthroat isn't the best option.

Think about it, why use a zoner against a counter-zoner? It makes no sense.

 

[kabelfritz]

What do you mean "scorpion pretty much says "no" to" oki? If he doesn't have armour you can mix up however you want, and if he does have armour then both takedown and teleport at least are both punishable. The type of knives make no difference because Scorpion can still teleport for full combo so zoning him is going to be pretty useless. Scorpion has a hard time in the neutral?! Which Scorpions have you been playing? He does fine in the neutral. You want to do as much damage as possible to him when you can open him up and you need the mixups which is why you want Cutthroat. I would use Cutthroat against Quan too, just because you get hit by Scorpion's armoured wakeups (at least from what I can assume from what you're saying about his knockdown game because his other wakeups are shit and you should be beating them out every time) doesn't mean Cutthroat isn't the best option.

Think about it, why use a zoner against a counter-zoner? It makes no sense.

1. scorpions wakeups are not necessary unsafe, he can cancel teleport. and you might be caught in a vortex with one wrong guess on his wakeup. too risky for my taste. also i have experienced quite a couple times that my attacks on his wakeup whiff on his NORMAL wakeup teleport and scissor kick, i think because the teleport moves away from you so fast and the scissor kick might go under a lot of stuff.
2. lets talk about inferno scorpions neutral. you can fuzzy guard his demon minions, they are basically useless in the neutral for anything other than checking you. his footsie tools are not so good, he doesnt have fast advancing normals (even in ninjitsu his strongest footsie tools are punishable), nothing like cyber kanos b2. the only good thing he can do is teleport cancel. but if he doesnt have full stamina he has to take risks to get in.
3. this is where your knives come into play. as soon as he realizes he doesnt get in for free, you can keep him in check a bit. of course you cant mindlessly spam, but you get a couple more options. and with a lifelead he cannot simply duck on the other end of the screen.
4. in addition to all of that, cyber still punishes for 35%

 

[Youphemism]

1. scorpions wakeups are not necessary unsafe, he can cancel teleport. and you might be caught in a vortex with one wrong guess on his wakeup. too risky for my taste. also i have experienced quite a couple times that my attacks on his wakeup whiff on his NORMAL wakeup teleport and scissor kick, i think because the teleport moves away from you so fast and the scissor kick might go under a lot of stuff.
2. lets talk about inferno scorpions neutral. you can fuzzy guard his demon minions, they are basically useless in the neutral for anything other than checking you. his footsie tools are not so good, he doesnt have fast advancing normals (even in ninjitsu his strongest footsie tools are punishable), nothing like cyber kanos b2. the only good thing he can do is teleport cancel. but if he doesnt have full stamina he has to take risks to get in.
3. this is where your knives come into play. as soon as he realizes he doesnt get in for free, you can keep him in check a bit. of course you cant mindlessly spam, but you get a couple more options. and with a lifelead he cannot simply duck on the other end of the screen.
4. in addition to all of that, cyber still punishes for 35%

1. Not necessarily unsafe? Seriously?! Teleport still has recovery, at which point YOU'RE at advantage so that's not a good enough excuse. You possibly being in vortex is not Cutthroat specific so you're going to need to come up with a better reason than that.
2. No, let's not talk about Inferno Scorpion's neutral, let's talk about KANO and the matchup and what tools he has that can counter Inferno Scorpion's... We're discussing which of Kano's variations is best for Inferno Scorpion, not what all of Kano's variations can do. So again, useless to discuss because this is more about what's best for Kano than Scorpion.
3. And Kano's knives in any variation can keep him in check, so what? You don't get "a couple more options", your knives just turn mid without EX. With a lifelead if you throw out a knife he's going to teleport and you will get vortexed so don't pretend that Cyber Kano just shuts him down any better than Cutthroat or Commando do.
4. In addition to all of that? You made three points which aren't even about which variation Kano has the best options for certain situations so no "addition" and no "all of that".
Cutthroat punishes harder than Cybernetic too so this point is ALSO not helping your case lol.

You want to be in on Inferno Scorpion. You want to be pressuring him and mixing HIM up so he can't do the same to you. Cutthroat not only allows you to buff up your damage but also gives you a safe hit confirmable overhead to mix him up with. There is no reason Cybernetic is better than Cutthroat in this matchup and you've told me nothing to convince me otherwise so far. You're going to need to come up with better reasons I'm afraid.
Everyone else in the thread seems to agree with me, why don't you? Have you tried Cutthroat in the Scorpion matchup?

 

[kabelfritz]

1. Not necessarily unsafe? Seriously?! Teleport still has recovery, at which point YOU'RE at advantage so that's not a good enough excuse. You possibly being in vortex is not Cutthroat specific so you're going to need to come up with a better reason than that.
2. You can fuzzy guard his demons? In one frame? Even so that's STILL not specific to any of Kano's variations so it's a useless point to discuss also. We're discussing which of Kano's variations is best for Inferno Scorpion, not what all of Kano's variations can do.
His footsie tools don't matter because he can just use DB1 to keep you in check from half screen. So again, useless to discuss because this is about Kano not Scorpion.
3. And Kano's knives in any variation can keep him in check, so what? You don't get "a couple more options", your knives just turn mid without EX. With a lifelead if you throw out a knife he's going to teleport and you will get vortexed so don't pretend that Cyber Kano just shuts him down any better than Cutthroat or Commando.
4. In addition to all of that? You made three points which aren't even about which variation Kano has the best options for certain situations so no "addition" and no "all of that".

You want to be in on Inferno Scorpion. You want to be pressuring him and mixing HIM up so he can't do the same to you. Cutthroat not only allows you to buff up your damage but also gives you a safe hit confirmable overhead to mix him up with. There is no reason Cybernetic is better than Cutthroat in this matchup and you've told me nothing to convince me otherwise so far. You're going to need to come up with better reasons I'm afraid.

1. you still gotta read the teleport when you go for oki pressure, and if he cancels it you better make sure your recovery is done in time. and in this discussion it is very cutthroat specific because thats the one youre going for oki pressure with, while i wouldnt do it that agressively with cyber.
2. yes you can fuzzy guard demons, i dont know here you got that one frame thing from, its super-easy and works every time. and yes his footsie tools do matter, i dont see the relation to db1 checks. their functionality is shut down already. also it does matter what all variations of kano can do, because you can unfold the one variations potential better than the other's on top of how kanos allround mechanics work this specific matchup.
3. mid knives keep him in check better than high knives. are you gonna argue about that? about the teleport thing, obviously youre not gonna throw out knives mindlessly when he waits for a punish.
4. my point is that i prefer the better zoning options over better oki options in this match, after all of kanos "allround" options are played out.

as final statement, i start disliking your way of discussing, its pretty agressive and doesnt really pay attention to detail, i guess im outta here

 

[Youphemism]

1. you still gotta read the teleport when you go for oki pressure, and if he cancels it you better make sure your recovery is done in time. and in this discussion it is very cutthroat specific because thats the one youre going for oki pressure with, while i wouldnt do it that agressively with cyber.
2. yes you can fuzzy guard demons, i dont know here you got that one frame thing from, its super-easy and works every time. and yes his footsie tools do matter, i dont see the relation to db1 checks. their functionality is shut down already. also it does matter what all variations of kano can do, because you can unfold the one variations potential better than the other's on top of how kanos allround mechanics work this specific matchup.
3. mid knives keep him in check better than high knives. are you gonna argue about that? about the teleport thing, obviously youre not gonna throw out knives mindlessly when he waits for a punish.
4. my point is that i prefer the better zoning options over better oki options in this match, after all of kanos "allround" options are played out.

as final statement, i start disliking your way of discussing, its pretty agressive and doesnt really pay attention to detail, i guess im outta here

1. No you don't, if he does normal teleport you can stuff it that's my point lol.
2. I got the one frame thing from the frame data. Low minion is 27 frames, overhead is 28. My point was Scorpion's DB1 can be used to check the opponent on the ground or at any distance because it hits them from behind so it can cover a range his best footsie tools might not. His D4 has good range though too so I don't see him struggling to be honest. I don't get what you mean about the unfolding thing...
3. No they don't, knives are knives. He still has to respect the knives in any variation, they just become mids in Cyber. It's not about throwing them out mindlessly obviously but Scorpion can still teleport and full combo punish you no matter what variation you're in. So full screen is not necessarily going to be better for you and the damage from one knife isn't going to frighten him enough to respect them or come in.
4. It's fine to have a preference, but it might not be your most optimal option. For example I liked playing the Wonder Woman vs Catwoman matchup in Injustice, but that doesn't mean she was my best choice for it. Someone like Martian obviously was.

When you look at Inferno Scorpion what do you have? Vortex but bad wakeups, zoning tools but average footsies. You want to take advantage of his weaknesses and that means you want to be in on him so he can't do what he wants to you. Best damage? Cutthroat. Best mixups/oki? Cutthroat. I don't see what Cyber has over the other two in this matchup since he's reliant on zoning for this matchup. Yes he has B2 in Cybernetic for footsies but why would Scorpion play footsies in Inferno?
Sorry if I came off the wrong way, I'm not trying to be aggressive about it I'm just trying to explain what the other Kanos already do/see/feel

@SaltShaker @Derocus @General M2Dave @Zatoichi @Decay @RM I$AAC anyone else want to provide any input?

 

[SaltShaker]

1. No you don't, if he does normal teleport you can stuff it that's my point lol.
2. I got the one frame thing from the frame data. Low minion is 27 frames, overhead is 28. My point was Scorpion's DB1 can be used to check the opponent on the ground or at any distance because it hits them from behind so it can cover a range his best footsie tools might not. His D4 has good range though too so I don't see him struggling to be honest. I don't get what you mean about the unfolding thing...
3. No they don't, knives are knives. He still has to respect the knives in any variation, they just become mids in Cyber. It's not about throwing them out mindlessly obviously but Scorpion can still teleport and full combo punish you no matter what variation you're in. So full screen is not necessarily going to be better for you and the damage from one knife isn't going to frighten him enough to respect them or come in.
4. It's fine to have a preference, but it might not be your most optimal option. For example I liked playing the Wonder Woman vs Catwoman matchup in Injustice, but that doesn't mean she was my best choice for it. Someone like Martian obviously was.

When you look at Inferno Scorpion what do you have? Vortex but bad wakeups, zoning tools but average footsies. You want to take advantage of his weaknesses and that means you want to be in on him so he can't do what he wants to you. Best damage? Cutthroat. Best mixups/oki? Cutthroat. I don't see what Cyber has over the other two in this matchup since he's reliant on zoning for this matchup. Yes he has B2 in Cybernetic for footsies but why would Scorpion play footsies in Inferno?
Sorry if I came off the wrong way, I'm not trying to be aggressive about it I'm just trying to explain what the other Kanos already do/see/feel

@SaltShaker @Derocus @General M2Dave @Zatoichi @Decay @RM I$AAC anyone else want to provide any input?

Getting killed at work right now so I can't go into too much detail, but I pretty much agree 100%.

For the beast that Cyber Kano is, one of the upper level variations in the game, there are two MU's that I always have to switch variations to do well. One of them is vs Scorpion. MU feels like trash for Cyber but is very manageable for Cutthroat.

Cutthroat's overall toolset is much more equipped to deal with Scorpion than Cyber. Rarely I say that, but for sure in this MU.

 

[Decay]

He's right about fuzzy blocking the demons. The low comes it faster and it's easy to fuzzy the demons. No mix up at all

 

[I$AAC]

1. No you don't, if he does normal teleport you can stuff it that's my point lol.
2. I got the one frame thing from the frame data. Low minion is 27 frames, overhead is 28. My point was Scorpion's DB1 can be used to check the opponent on the ground or at any distance because it hits them from behind so it can cover a range his best footsie tools might not. His D4 has good range though too so I don't see him struggling to be honest. I don't get what you mean about the unfolding thing...
3. No they don't, knives are knives. He still has to respect the knives in any variation, they just become mids in Cyber. It's not about throwing them out mindlessly obviously but Scorpion can still teleport and full combo punish you no matter what variation you're in. So full screen is not necessarily going to be better for you and the damage from one knife isn't going to frighten him enough to respect them or come in.
4. It's fine to have a preference, but it might not be your most optimal option. For example I liked playing the Wonder Woman vs Catwoman matchup in Injustice, but that doesn't mean she was my best choice for it. Someone like Martian obviously was.

When you look at Inferno Scorpion what do you have? Vortex but bad wakeups, zoning tools but average footsies. You want to take advantage of his weaknesses and that means you want to be in on him so he can't do what he wants to you. Best damage? Cutthroat. Best mixups/oki? Cutthroat. I don't see what Cyber has over the other two in this matchup since he's reliant on zoning for this matchup. Yes he has B2 in Cybernetic for footsies but why would Scorpion play footsies in Inferno?
Sorry if I came off the wrong way, I'm not trying to be aggressive about it I'm just trying to explain what the other Kanos already do/see/feel

@SaltShaker @Derocus @General M2Dave @Zatoichi @Decay @RM I$AAC anyone else want to provide any input?

I just played this match last night against a scorp and barely lost. I used cyber and I can tell you that it was an uphill battle for me. I found myself having to rush and chase a lead. If I play this match again I would go cutthroat or even commando over cybernetic.

 

[kabelfritz]

He's right about fuzzy blocking the demons. The low comes it faster and it's easy to fuzzy the demons. No mix up at all

thank you. this changes the pace of the match so much, that you dont have to try to knock and keep scorpion down at any cost. just stay fullscreen and punish what he does.

1. No you don't, if he does normal teleport you can stuff it that's my point lol.
2. I got the one frame thing from the frame data. Low minion is 27 frames, overhead is 28. My point was Scorpion's DB1 can be used to check the opponent on the ground or at any distance because it hits them from behind so it can cover a range his best footsie tools might not. His D4 has good range though too so I don't see him struggling to be honest. I don't get what you mean about the unfolding thing...
3. No they don't, knives are knives. He still has to respect the knives in any variation, they just become mids in Cyber. It's not about throwing them out mindlessly obviously but Scorpion can still teleport and full combo punish you no matter what variation you're in. So full screen is not necessarily going to be better for you and the damage from one knife isn't going to frighten him enough to respect them or come in.
4. It's fine to have a preference, but it might not be your most optimal option. For example I liked playing the Wonder Woman vs Catwoman matchup in Injustice, but that doesn't mean she was my best choice for it. Someone like Martian obviously was.
When you look at Inferno Scorpion what do you have? Vortex but bad wakeups, zoning tools but average footsies. You want to take advantage of his weaknesses and that means you want to be in on him so he can't do what he wants to you. Best damage? Cutthroat. Best mixups/oki? Cutthroat. I don't see what Cyber has over the other two in this matchup since he's reliant on zoning for this matchup. Yes he has B2 in Cybernetic for footsies but why would Scorpion play footsies in Inferno?
Sorry if I came off the wrong way, I'm not trying to be aggressive about it I'm just trying to explain what the other Kanos already do/see/feel
@SaltShaker @Derocus @General M2Dave @Zatoichi @Decay @RM I$AAC anyone else want to provide any input?

thats fair, im just explaining my view too . in the end all of this will just help. but before we continue to get into detail, have you tried to fuzzy block his minions on reaction to the startup animation? because that changes so much, like i said above in my reponse to decay.

 

[LEGI0N47]

I can appreciate what you're both saying. Enjoyed the discussion. I'm still not sure what I want to do in the scorp MU if I'm honest. I think it's annoying and just sucks in general.

Outside of oki and mix ups what do you think makes Cutthroat so much better? Is it the long reaching ex blade slice, damage? Just trying to get a handle on where you guys are coming from outside of the rushdown or am I missing it and that is the point?

 

[FlappyDaniel]

I play the scorpion matchup very defensive and reactionary and have never really had problems with it. Maybe you just need to change mindset? I rarely attempt to even Oki scorp unless I have momentum in the favor and he's close to the corner or unless he has no option to wakeup armor. I'll just stand back, throw a few staggered knives to try and bait out the teleport and react, if he's patient then I'll slowly advance past his demon calls and block chain attempts until I get close, once you get close they will get flustered and be more likely to teleport, so I keep that in the back of my mind and, when you're looking for his teleport it's fairly simple to react to it.

 

[LEGI0N47]

I play the scorpion matchup very defensive and reactionary and have never really had problems with it. Maybe you just need to change mindset? I rarely attempt to even Oki scorp unless I have momentum in the favor and he's close to the corner or unless he has no option to wakeup armor. I'll just stand back, throw a few staggered knives to try and bait out the teleport and react, if he's patient then I'll slowly advance past his demon calls and block chain attempts until I get close, once you get close they will get flustered and be more likely to teleport, so I keep that in the back of my mind and, when you're looking for his teleport it's fairly simple to react to it.

I think we all play it everyday if we play online at all lol.

I rarely get to come across one that doesn't play like you describe though. which if it is a friend of yours I don't mean to pick at but kinda sounds like your everyday basic scorp, fish for spears and tele's with demon spam sprinkled in. Any variation can beat those guys IMO. I'm genuinely curious to see how the different variations play out against a well rounded scorp player who does more than special moves and tries to mix you up and play neutral with the added threat of tele's etc.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

Yeah I am definitely generalizing for online, I have yet to play more then 1 set with a good scorpion. It is definitely more difficult but the idea is generally the same (in commando at least), play defensive, majority high blocks since low demon and trip are the main issues low. Can D4 his teleport as well and low profile it and interrupt him when he appears on your side. His neutral game is fairly transparent but can still be pretty tricky. I'll weigh in after more games with scorp, I should get a good number tonight, there's a local tourny and I know there's at least 2 scorp players goin'. I'll keep my eye open for tendencies.

 

[I$AAC]

I'm sorry if this was mentioned earlier, but how do you guys handle the Cassie MU. I've got blown up by one the past 2 weeks at ranbats