Match-Up Discussion - Kano Kano's Ruthless Matchup Discussion Thread

[Jowabunga]

It's super early but who would you put above him and why?

 

[MsMiharo]

It's super early but who would you put above him and why?

A BUNCH of characters including Cutthroat. Commando struggles in some matchups where opponents keep him out.

 

[villainous monk]

I was thinking of the same thing a few days ago but I spent most of the weekend finding out. In all honesty he's not that bad. Hes in there. Running with the pack but not top tier. It's the balancing I want more then some stupid tier list that I have zero F's to give.

I find csz gives cyber and cmd a really hard time.

Sektor as well but CT can go toe to toe more of then with csz.

I think smoke can be a problem especially with his movesets that really takes away the tempo for cyber to control the game. A few times I was lucky or clutch in dealing with smoke with cmd grabs while he's doing his shinainingins but like i said.
Lucky.

Acid... That's a problem. The rest of his variations kano can deal with mostly no problem.

LF and Rai Cho I'm still up on the air about but I would go to CT first.

I just haven't faced good LF and Rai Cho's yet.

I'm aslo wondering what everyone else thinks.

 

[Jowabunga]

Incidentally, I watched a bunch of MsMiharo's youtube Commando matches the other night. Gist is the variation was really good against everything else and then switched to Sektor and stopped pressing buttons. I've been playing nearly exclusively Alien since KP2 released, all three variations, and I can tell you Acid is only a problem for Command on reads. Otherwise, all three variations can be zoned fairly effectively with knives forcing Alien into whiffed krawls just to close the gap backed up by Air Balls. It's not real fun. It's that matchup that got me to post here in the first place. Makes me feel like I need to learn someone else just for vs. Kano play.

 

[villainous monk]

I agree.

I faced a few acid over the weekend and I was winging the mu pretty good in my favor but that won't last until I educate myself on acid itself.

Zoning him from beyond half screen was what I found the best thing to do to draw him in.

It's the spacing with ailen that's the key i find to win. It's the zoning and controlling the stage limiting his terrain and forcing him to be one dimensional.

Especially with his back to the corner and picking maps where he doesn't have the ability to burn stamina on a interactible. Keeping him in check with oh air ball really made them very nervous and chipping away with knives while I used the clock to my advantage.

Acid had problems and was forced to go one way. And I was ready for it.

But like I said. It can only work for so long before I meet a great acid player and I am forced to truly battle on a level playing field and hopefully not in reverse.

The other two I'm not too terribly worried about but I'm smarter then that to know Konjourer would be a serious problem for cmd and maybe CT acid too for that matter till were more knowledgeable about the match up but Tarkatan...

I see no real issue going toe to toe with Tarkatan. Only the pounce is the major issue and full on blocking him or fuzzy guarding him apoun approach making him wiff then punishing him back into that corner forcing him to try again...

Well it worked for me.

For now.

 

[Jowabunga]

Spacing is crucial for both really. Some interesting interplay with the Acid/Kano matchup is that full-screen (which is mostly safe from Acid) also makes Air Ball hit low only. To threaten the overhead you have to let him into acid range. Given roughly equal player skill I'm not sure there's an even playing field here but I'd love to see some footage proving me wrong.

I have the least experience with Tarkatan of the three so can't comment but just based on the zoning discussion I feel like this is the worst matchup of the three.

 

[MsMiharo]

Incidentally, I watched a bunch of MsMiharo's youtube Commando matches the other night. Gist is the variation was really good against everything else and then switched to Sektor and stopped pressing buttons. I've been playing nearly exclusively Alien since KP2 released, all three variations, and I can tell you Acid is only a problem for Command on reads. Otherwise, all three variations can be zoned fairly effectively with knives forcing Alien into whiffed krawls just to close the gap backed up by Air Balls. It's not real fun. It's that matchup that got me to post here in the first place. Makes me feel like I need to learn someone else just for vs. Kano play.

Don't think those clips give a good representation of the matchup as none of the players involved knew wtf they were doing lol

 

[Jowabunga]

Haha no worries. It was a learning experience anyway. I felt like the CSz player would have done a lot better but REALLY didn't know what he was doing.

 

[MsMiharo]

Haha no worries. It was a learning experience anyway. I felt like the CSz player would have done a lot better but REALLY didn't know what he was doing.

Nah that was like day 1-3, people were just mashing shit

 

[LEGI0N47]

It's super early but who would you put above him and why?

A lot of chars. Mainly those with strong space control and keep away or strong pressure, especially those with both. Commando's only mix up is really tick grabs for 17-19%. He also lacks on punishing averaging around 30% for a bar unless you're in the corner. But honestly that's not really what he's about. Your goal is to get in their face and mix them up with a grab/tick grab or win footsies and oki them until death. Hopefully ending with IMO some of the coolest brutals in the game.

However just talking about Kano CT is far better as an MKX char. He has safe mix ups that are quite fast and very viable with the buff to b1 range and the safe knife slice is money! You can whif punish or be in their face from a solid third of the screen and run up and do a mix up on hit. With careful meter management you can use EX power up to basically force a double mix up in pressure and on hit get some great meterless damage or pretty crazy damage for another bar. In short, good normals and footsies, safe and strong mix ups, solid pressure, good mobility, big damage when you have meter. So for an MKX char what's not to like?

 

[villainous monk]

Hmm I see.

Yes. Spacing is crucial to kano now more then ever. @MrInsaynne said it best in another thread that the clock and the control of the stage is key to him now. I've always agreed because you can only chip your opponents to death while baiting and using footsies for a good read to begin your offense. It's like how I used to play Garuda in EX Plus Alpha. Baraka in mk9 and now MKXL kano.

Yes OH/low air ball is risky and puts him in harms way but Kano should be the dude to rule the air. Ailen jumps kano should put him down. Until that is not the best choice to do with him.

The acid mu has me a bit worried. I did face 3 Tarkatan over the weekend and every single robot as well as I think 1 Rai Cho and leatherface maybe more then 1 but anyways. Acid has me a bit worried for the acid restarts and the nasty chip damage that he spews at his safe distance. Knives can only do so much. Especially for cyber which I still think a little bit of tinkering is welcomed.

Thank God for CT who's buff and wicked MB blade slice does so much damage and fear. Yeah. CT is a beast right now.

Tarkatan I'm very unknown about that mu because I figured his plays like a hybrid Baraka but with no teeth to speak. As in no projectile to match zoning with but that pounce... Yeah. Tarkatan I agree with you there. CT can probably win constantly this match up though.

I can't speak 100% on even playing field aslo since the mu is so very new. But I do know kano and what he can/can't do.

Vids soon come. I want to be critiqued anyways. I just hard inbetween life and all.

 

[MsMiharo]

Hmm I see.

Yes. Spacing is crucial to kano now more then ever. @MrInsaynne said it best in another thread that the clock and the control of the stage is key to him now. I've always agreed because you can only chip your opponents to death while baiting and using footsies for a good read to begin your offense. It's like how I used to play Garuda in EX Plus Alpha. Baraka in mk9 and now MKXL kano.

Yes OH/low air ball is risky and puts him in harms way but Kano should be the dude to rule the air. Ailen jumps kano should put him down. Until that is not the best choice to do with him.

The acid mu has me a bit worried. I did face 3 Tarkatan over the weekend and every single robot as well as I think 1 Rai Cho and leatherface maybe more then 1 but anyways. Acid has me a bit worried for the acid restarts and the nasty chip damage that he spews at his safe distance. Knives can only do so much. Especially for cyber which I still think a little bit of tinkering is welcomed.

Thank God for CT who's buff and wicked MB blade slice does so much damage and fear. Yeah. CT is a beast right now.

Tarkatan I'm very unknown about that mu because I figured his plays like a hybrid Baraka but with no teeth to speak. As in no projectile to match zoning with but that pounce... Yeah. Tarkatan I agree with you there. CT can probably win constantly this match up though.

I can't speak 100% on even playing field aslo since the mu is so very new. But I do know kano and what he can/can't do.

Vids soon come. I want to be critiqued anyways. I just hard inbetween life and all.

The problem with the alien MU so far is that all his stuff beats air ball. That jump grab beats everything, the overhead (leap) special beats your air ball, his standing and jump normals, even the fucking tail snag beat me out of air ball (when I was in the air!). Like how do you even deal with that?

 

[villainous monk]

The problem with the alien MU so far is that all his stuff beats air ball. That jump grab beats everything, the overhead (leap) special beats your air ball, his standing and jump normals, even the fucking tail snag beat me out of air ball (when I was in the air!). Like how do you even deal with that?

Control the space. Use the stage and the clock. Use knives. You can stand block the pounce. It has poor frames for recovery. Can't remember the data for it you can full combo punish that ugly mofo. Right to the side of the screen you feel comfortable with.

Do that a few times and they will be stationary throwing acid from outside the distance to harm you. While you throw darts at him from full screen.

Make him play your game. OH air ball can't be thrown out too often because he can punish it. I only use it for one thing only and that's anti air collision. I know air ball will beat it.

Use armor up ball too. Especially since it's active on the first frames.

Back dash is your friend. I know. This mu is still giving me nightmares because soon people are going to get really good with him so I hope the the kano mains start sharing some ideas.

I can't wait till I lab him on my day off today.

I'll find a really good way to punish that pounce but for now stand block and b13 MB slice or cmd grab or laser and going to town will work.

If I remember from a week ago not sure but b1 juggles pounce and I think it's aliens d4 that's the air acid thing... whatever. Both of aliens moves on wiff b1 can juggle.

 

[Jowabunga]

Villainous has the right idea. I've played vs. Cybernetic and Commando a ton using all three flavors of Alien and with the latter it's the 3/4 screen knife fling backed by air ball that's given me the most headaches due to Alien's hitbox being so big (hard to jump over high projectiles) and the krawl being kinda bad on recovery (-16). Konjurer is slightly different because he can trade with the drone drop. I do know that at least a couple of moves (D4 and far exo sting, the normal acid spray) that can hit after a backdash and it's possible the low tail grab can as well.

BTW, the pounce (xeno strike) is pretty terrible on block and worse on recovery so... it becomes a game of who can bait whom into throwing their junk out from neutral. From the Alien perspective, if I haven;t mentioned this already, the variable distance that Kano lands after an air ball frustrates me a lot because it can take a super punishable move on block and make it not punishable at all just based on the angle of approach.

Speaking of air ball, you're saying the pounce and tail flip beat it? Seriously? I've never even attempted this based on my experience that the various balls beat everything else non-projectile but I may need to lab it. If this is the case it's an odd decision, but I like it because it gives Alien some counterplay to Kano players just constantly whipping out air ball in the neutral.

 

[MsMiharo]

Villainous has the right idea. I've played vs. Cybernetic and Commando a ton using all three flavors of Alien and with the latter it's the 3/4 screen knife fling backed by air ball that's given me the most headaches due to Alien's hitbox being so big (hard to jump over high projectiles) and the krawl being kinda bad on recovery (-16). Konjurer is slightly different because he can trade with the drone drop. I do know that at least a couple of moves (D4 and far exo sting, the normal acid spray) that can hit after a backdash and it's possible the low tail grab can as well.

BTW, the pounce (xeno strike) is pretty terrible on block and worse on recovery so... it becomes a game of who can bait whom into throwing their junk out from neutral. From the Alien perspective, if I haven;t mentioned this already, the variable distance that Kano lands after an air ball frustrates me a lot because it can take a super punishable move on block and make it not punishable at all just based on the angle of approach.

Speaking of air ball, you're saying the pounce and tail flip beat it? Seriously? I've never even attempted this based on my experience that the various balls beat everything else non-projectile but I may need to lab it. If this is the case it's an odd decision, but I like it because it gives Alien some counterplay to Kano players just constantly whipping out air ball in the neutral.

Everything beats air Kano ball. It has no priority.

 

[Jowabunga]

You have match footage somewhere that illustrates this? Anything I've ever tried (with multiple characters) that involves model to model contact always loses to any ball type. It's especially frustrating getting off well-timed air normals as Alien and losing the priority war anyway. Happens to me ALL the time.

 

[kantboy-2]

Acidic is a pain in the ass. Tarkatan and Konjurer, not so much. With those two, go fullscreen and make them come to you. Punish those tail flips and pounces up close. Only be cautious of the MB crawl; so much fucking stun afterwards, he can combo or pounce you right after. MB knee strike is your friend in commando, standing laser is your friend in cyber and MB power up into f2,1,2 is your best friend in CT up close.

Don't give a fucking inch of ground to acidic and never back into the corner. The only kombo that fucking start something and not be beaten by every fucking poke that MF has is the 1,1,2. Oh, yeah, try not to jump unless you see it commited to a kombo string that you can punish.

I share Ms. Miharo's disdain. The freaking tail whack he does took me out of the air ball almost all the time. Disgusting.

Did I mention I fucking hate Acidic?

 

[Jowabunga]

I share Ms. Miharo's disdain. The freaking tail whack he does took me out of the air ball almost all the time. Disgusting.
Did I mention I fucking hate Acidic?

Is this an air normal or special, specifically the little acid spray (exo sting)? He does have U3 which is a long-range acid spray AA normal which is great at knocking the ball out on a quick read but it's not easy to do consistently.

 

[MsMiharo]

Is this an air normal or special, specifically the little acid spray (exo sting)? He does have U3 which is a long-range acid spray AA normal which is great at knocking the ball out on a quick read but it's not easy to do consistently.

He need just do a grounded normal or special and he'll win lol

 

[Jowabunga]

Probably need a clarification here. I labbed this tonight a bit. Prior to ball input anything knocks him out of the air (which is just standard AA behavior). Once air ball is active I couldn't find anything that knocked him out of it except acid-based (projectile) attacks. Xeno Strike loses during airball unless it's armored (which is sort of a waste).

 

[DFC]

Probably need a clarification here. I labbed this tonight a bit. Prior to ball input anything knocks him out of the air (which is just standard AA behavior). Once air ball is active I couldn't find anything that knocked him out of it except acid-based (projectile) attacks. Xeno Strike loses during airball unless it's armored (which is sort of a waste).

I've been normaled out of air ball in the past.

 

[MsMiharo]

Probably need a clarification here. I labbed this tonight a bit. Prior to ball input anything knocks him out of the air (which is just standard AA behavior). Once air ball is active I couldn't find anything that knocked him out of it except acid-based (projectile) attacks. Xeno Strike loses during airball unless it's armored (which is sort of a waste).

A well timed normal will beat air ball. Anything with a decent horizontal and vertical hitbox.

 

[Jowabunga]

Damn it y'all are crazy. I think you're making stuff up just to get me hopeful. Haha.

Seriously though I'll have to keep messing with it cuz it seems really hard to do. The timing is super tight.

 

[MsMiharo]

Damn it y'all are crazy. I think you're making stuff up just to get me hopeful. Haha.

Seriously though I'll have to keep messing with it cuz it seems really hard to do. The timing is super tight.

Nah, I've been playing Kano since the revolution skin dropped and I'm not lying. Air ball has shit priority except over (most) air normals. It's a fucking great move but just like regular kano ball it gets stuffed by d1's and such all the fucking time.

 

[villainous monk]

I went into the lab before work.

Yes. Acid is a bitch. D4 db2 aslo in the air and db1 stop air ball and ex air dead in its tracks. In fact db4 made him reset.

Not. Good.

So I guess for now timing it right for your advantage is a must.

Also I like to bring attention to f3 2+4. This little string needs some serious love. I love using this little string but it should have a faster start up then it already has. I used it against pounce and a few other movesets alien had.

Just my opinion.

Now. Can someone help me with Jasons invincible armor in his slasher variation. I got seriously annilalated the other night and I never want to feel that way again.