General/Other - Cybernetic Kano's Cybernetic Variation Discussion Thread

[omegapr1me99]

So, here I am! Just ended my 48 hours weekend Kano games A small breakdown.

1. vs SubZero Grandmaster 4-6

Seems like an even mu mid screen and awful while cornered. Midscreen I can spam knives. However SZ can regular slide under them or ex slide for sure. Also when he is 2/3 screen to me I can't properly zone because of snowball or JIP. Crossup game is sick, you can d2 him only on hard read. In the corner it is nightmare - ex kano ball leads to knockdown and you can't cancell it or it wont hit at all. But you can ex knives and potentially combo of it.

2. vs Takeda Shirai 4-6

Fullscreen trades are worthless. He can throw his projectiles, he can tele on read or he can dash, or he can jump in and do his ex airial spear for full combo. You cant even block in time due to recovery. Upclose game is ok, but not as powerfull as it was. Something like 6-4 in Kanos favor. Also when he uses his moves he leans back and that makes b1 occasionally whiff and leads to pain. Kanos armor cancel is useless here due to its poor reach. Ex knives is great, but I ive said before each ex knives are 50-50 you gonna score 2 hit blockstring if he blocks, or you gonna bait armor and punish or you gonna be hit by it. Each blocked knife from jump distance leads to pressure. Each blocked takedas d3 leads to pressure because he is +2. Though my b3 sometimes goes over his poke and hits him.

3. vs Ermac with stunning projectile 3-7

At first you cant afford trade. You pressure is interrupted by his fast pokes. Each blocked knive or string results into 50-50 mixup that you must guess. You can try backdash to avoid mixup but lift will get you. You can try D4 poke him, but his run just makes him fly over (!!!) your poke. You can't aa him because of 1 wrong AA leads to 40% dmg and vortex.

4. vs Scorpion Inferno 6-4

That was a new man that has no experience vs Cyb Kano and I made my best at having + frames on 2 and B31. Infernos overhead is shit. It is reactable. Demons are reactable as well. Upclose scropion is no threat. But on distance you must be aware of his tools. Also you cant antiar him with any means you have. His JIK is sick. b1 and d2 are useless. You can armor or backdash through his vortex setups. If opp doesnt know about + frames on b31, 2 and ex knives you will kick his ass completely.

5. vs Sonya Covert Ops 6-4

Rather easy. Though her dive kick is very hard to punish if done right but mixups are. Low and OH from the stance are fuzzyguardable and 30% punishable. Very nice. Armor doesnt suffer from its poor reach. Blocked knives cant be punished.


Lets clarify something about reactable things. I see that guys dont get the math right.
Assume that you have a true block string that starts with a move that has 50 frames recovery duration with -5 on block. Is it reactable if is cut short? It depends on its cancel advantage. Block advantage even doesnt count at all (if it is some amount). If that move is cancelable on its 40 frame then you have only 10 frames (50 - 40 = 10) to react till your advantage will go off. After 10 frames you are both neutral. Well, and thet 10 frames are not reactable.
Lets assume another case. The move is 50 frames recovery duration, -5 on block and can be cancelled into follow up on its 20 frame. So 50 - 20 = 30. So if the move is not cancelled you have 25 frames to understand this and additional 5 frames (minus adv on block) to actually punish it.
So what I want to tell, that reactable or not is not about block advantage but about cancell advatage and recovery. You can't say that move with 36 frames recovery is more reactable that the move with 20 frames recovery till you take into account when the move is cancellable. Things get even more hard when moves look the same or go smooth.
So, b13 is definitely reactable because of its large cancell adv. B1 is reactable too when your opp is aware of that your only option to do a block string is b1 (e.g. he is at -3~-5 and you need something fast to start a blockstring). And that makes you vulnerable. He just buffer backdash and waits follow up. You can complete the blockstring and you will be at -1. There is no threat for your opponent.

Sory for the longpost and my English. Take a potato. Btw @Youphemism, was suprised that you were not playing Kano at ESL.

Wait, Scorpion up close is no threat? Are you ill? Which overhead is reactable?

 

[Lanqu]

f4 is reactable on 24 frames. f2 is fuzzyguardable or even reactable at 19 frames. Low is 12 frames and twice slower than the OH. Just block low all day and stand up on reaction. Have no problems with that.

 

[omegapr1me99]

f4 is reactable on 24 frames. f2 is fuzzyguardable or even reactable at 19 frames. Low is 12 frames and twice slower than the OH. Just block low all day and stand up on reaction. Have no problems with that.

That's besides the point since a good Scorpion player won't throw out F4 in neutral and he can always delay his lows and overheads to beat out a fuzzy guard if that's what he suspects.

 

[Lanqu]

f4 too slow to be threat. You can see it coming when he starts getting his leg up. 24 frames of startup, r u kiddin? All his mixups are soooo slow that you can spend ages trying to get somebody with it. Want some real mixup? Check Ermacs OH.

 

[omegapr1me99]

f4 too slow to be threat. You can see it coming when he starts getting his leg up. 24 frames of startup, r u kiddin? All his mixups are soooo slow that you can spend ages trying to get somebody with it. Want some real mixup? Check Ermacs OH.

Maybe if you actually read my post you would see that I said about F4 being slow. I didn't know that a 12 frame low was considered slow, since a 12 frame move can't be reacted to.

 

[Lanqu]

Please, read my post again. I've never told low is reactable. THATs why I told "just block low".
You can stand up on reaction when see OH coming.

 

[omegapr1me99]

Please, read my post again. I've never told low is reactable. THATs why I told "just block low".
You can stand up on reaction when see OH coming.

You were the one that said his mix-ups were slow, which is completely wrong. B3 is 11 frames and F2 is 15 frames. They aren't reactable

 

[Rude]

You were the one that said his mix-ups were slow, which is completely wrong. B3 is 11 frames and F2 is 15 frames. They aren't reactable

Didn't anyone ever tell you?

On TYM, everything is reactable. No one ever got hit by Scorpion's vortex or Smoke's b2 in MK9 because they were completely reactable. Just git gud skrub, is what they will tell you.

More often than not, people are confusing reads with reactions. You block low, but you're scouting for the overhead. That's not a pure reaction.

But don't go bother trying to explain this to anyone. You will never win this argument and people who believe false information will cling to it with a death grip rather than admit they're wrong.

Who can blame them? 90% of TYM is full of trolls and regulators who will pounce on you and call you a downplayer, even if you're just trying to talk about the game.

It's never okay to be wrong here, because people equate knowledge with skill. And when they don't do that, they're calling you out to laggy grudge matches as a means to validate their position.

Nevermind that facts and knowledge are not mutually exclusive with victory.

It is what it is and you're better off saving your time.

 

[Youphemism]

So, here I am! Just ended my 48 hours weekend Kano games A small breakdown.

1. vs SubZero Grandmaster 4-6

Seems like an even mu mid screen and awful while cornered. Midscreen I can spam knives. However SZ can regular slide under them or ex slide for sure. Also when he is 2/3 screen to me I can't properly zone because of snowball or JIP. Crossup game is sick, you can d2 him only on hard read. In the corner it is nightmare - ex kano ball leads to knockdown and you can't cancell it or it wont hit at all. But you can ex knives and potentially combo of it.

2. vs Takeda Shirai 4-6

Fullscreen trades are worthless. He can throw his projectiles, he can tele on read or he can dash, or he can jump in and do his ex airial spear for full combo. You cant even block in time due to recovery. Upclose game is ok, but not as powerfull as it was. Something like 6-4 in Kanos favor. Also when he uses his moves he leans back and that makes b1 occasionally whiff and leads to pain. Kanos armor cancel is useless here due to its poor reach. Ex knives is great, but I ive said before each ex knives are 50-50 you gonna score 2 hit blockstring if he blocks, or you gonna bait armor and punish or you gonna be hit by it. Each blocked knife from jump distance leads to pressure. Each blocked takedas d3 leads to pressure because he is +2. Though my b3 sometimes goes over his poke and hits him.

3. vs Ermac with stunning projectile 3-7

At first you cant afford trade. You pressure is interrupted by his fast pokes. Each blocked knive or string results into 50-50 mixup that you must guess. You can try backdash to avoid mixup but lift will get you. You can try D4 poke him, but his run just makes him fly over (!!!) your poke. You can't aa him because of 1 wrong AA leads to 40% dmg and vortex.

4. vs Scorpion Inferno 6-4

That was a new man that has no experience vs Cyb Kano and I made my best at having + frames on 2 and B31. Infernos overhead is shit. It is reactable. Demons are reactable as well. Upclose scropion is no threat. But on distance you must be aware of his tools. Also you cant antiar him with any means you have. His JIK is sick. b1 and d2 are useless. You can armor or backdash through his vortex setups. If opp doesnt know about + frames on b31, 2 and ex knives you will kick his ass completely.

5. vs Sonya Covert Ops 6-4

Rather easy. Though her dive kick is very hard to punish if done right but mixups are. Low and OH from the stance are fuzzyguardable and 30% punishable. Very nice. Armor doesnt suffer from its poor reach. Blocked knives cant be punished.


Lets clarify something about reactable things. I see that guys dont get the math right.
Assume that you have a true block string that starts with a move that has 50 frames recovery duration with -5 on block. Is it reactable if is cut short? It depends on its cancel advantage. Block advantage even doesnt count at all (if it is some amount). If that move is cancelable on its 40 frame then you have only 10 frames (50 - 40 = 10) to react till your advantage will go off. After 10 frames you are both neutral. Well, and thet 10 frames are not reactable.
Lets assume another case. The move is 50 frames recovery duration, -5 on block and can be cancelled into follow up on its 20 frame. So 50 - 20 = 30. So if the move is not cancelled you have 25 frames to understand this and additional 5 frames (minus adv on block) to actually punish it.
So what I want to tell, that reactable or not is not about block advantage but about cancell advatage and recovery. You can't say that move with 36 frames recovery is more reactable that the move with 20 frames recovery till you take into account when the move is cancellable. Things get even more hard when moves look the same or go smooth.
So, b13 is definitely reactable because of its large cancell adv. B1 is reactable too when your opp is aware of that your only option to do a block string is b1 (e.g. he is at -3~-5 and you need something fast to start a blockstring). And that makes you vulnerable. He just buffer backdash and waits follow up. You can complete the blockstring and you will be at -1. There is no threat for your opponent.

Sory for the longpost and my English. Take a potato. Btw @Youphemism, was suprised that you were not playing Kano at ESL.

Swap your GM Sub Zero and Inferno Scorpion numbers, they are definitely the wrong way round.

I didn't play Cyber Kano at ESL because the guy was playing Inferno Scorpion and that's a bad matchup for Kano.

 

[Lanqu]

Yep, my mistake, OH is 15 frames and is not reactable, though you can pretty much try fuzzyguard it. But f4 OH is completely reactable. Yeah, sometimes you can catch people with it, but it happens almost never because you need sooo damn much frame advantage to pull this out.
Btw, why Inferno is bad mu for Kano?

 

[Youphemism]

Yep, my mistake, OH is 15 frames and is not reactable, though you can pretty much try fuzzyguard it. But f4 OH is completely reactable. Yeah, sometimes you can catch people with it, but it happens almost never because you need sooo damn much frame advantage to pull this out.
Btw, why Inferno is bad mu for Kano?

Because of the teleport and the vortex/mixups. Cybernetic Kano can't zone in this matchup the way he wants to because of the risk that Scorpion will teleport and get a full combo into vortex. Never mind the fact Scorpion can win trades with Kano's zoning with the low minion ALSO into full combo/vortex. Kano's fastest normal is 8 frames as well so he can't punish things like F2. Scorpion also has better mixups than Kano too and Scorpion's J3/4 is insane to anti-air, but even if you risk anti-airing it he can just teleport into full combo which means having to respect jump attacks unless on a read. It's just a generally hard time for Cyber Kano, he has to play super conservatively.

 

[CJKRattlehead]

Because of the teleport and the vortex/mixups. Cybernetic Kano can't zone in this matchup the way he wants to because of the risk that Scorpion will teleport and get a full combo into vortex.

I would look at that as a reason TO zone inferno I highly doubt the scorpion player is punishing a knife on reaction with TP

 

[Lanqu]

Afar, startup on teleport is more then 20 frames.. And startup on knives are 12 frames. He can TP only on hard read. And what I've done - I ve been punishing all his demons with knives if fullscreen. Knife on hit grants you another knife.
And startup on low demon is also so slow that Ive managed to throw tons of knives and bait unsafe.
Also you can punish his f2 with up kano ball or try throw or pressure.
The only problem is his JIK but that doesnt belong to kano. You still can godly backdash and throw knives.
You can backdash his mixups or use armor to get a combo. You'r Kano, you have infinite meter with knives.

 

[SaltShaker]

I tried to stay out of it but I just had to say something. I disagree with every number you posted except Sonya.

1. vs SubZero Grandmaster 4-6

5-5 imo, but I can understand the argument for 4-6. It's a tough MU but very winnable. Takes incredibly smart and consistent play each round and each match.

2. vs Takeda Shirai 4-6

This is pure insanity. The only Takeda I have ever lost a set to was a couple of long sets against Raptor, and even then I played the last 10-12 matches much better than the first 20 in the first set, and played the 2nd set better altogether. This is clear MU knowledge, and once you have a proper gameplan against him and counters for his tools it's one of the better MU's for Cyber Kano.

3. vs Ermac with stunning projectile 3-7

Do you know how bad a MU has to be to fall under a 3-7? As in when two highly skilled players run a 20 game set, the Cyber Kano player wins 6 out of 20 games. Is that where you are placing this MU? Come on man.

4. vs Scorpion Inferno 6-4

That was a new man that has no experience vs Cyb Kano

There is no way you can base a MU number off a "new man that has no experience vs Cyb Kano" lol. Advantage? No one is going to be "reacting" to Scorpion's 50/50 in either option unless the Scorpion is a predictable scrub, and even then it's more of a read. This new "react to anything over 16 frames" TYM dialog is a candidate for biggest bill of all time. Worse than people saying during half of Injustice's lifespan to "react" to KF F3.

On topic, this might be Cyber Kano's single worst MU in the entire game man.

5. vs Sonya Covert Ops 6-4

I agree with this.


I hope you understand I just don't want misinformation running through the thread. While nothing is concrete yet, in the games current phase some of those numbers are just blatantly wrong.

 

[Youphemism]

I would look at that as a reason TO zone inferno I highly doubt the scorpion player is punishing a knife on reaction with TP

Your logic for zoning a variation is because they have an anti-zoning move? You do realise that makes no sense right?

Afar, startup on teleport is more then 20 frames.. And startup on knives are 12 frames. He can TP only on hard read. And what I've done - I ve been punishing all his demons with knives if fullscreen. Knife on hit grants you another knife.
And startup on low demon is also so slow that Ive managed to throw tons of knives and bait unsafe.
Also you can punish his f2 with up kano ball or try throw or pressure.
The only problem is his JIK but that doesnt belong to kano. You still can godly backdash and throw knives.
You can backdash his mixups or use armor to get a combo. You'r Kano, you have infinite meter with knives.

So what if startup on knives is 12 frames? That's from close up, it's longer from full screen. The fact you can only punish demon with knives should show you how shit this is for him. And if anything you want to use that opportunity to run in and get pressure or a combo rather than him getting low minions and winning full screen trades putting you back into vortex.
Punishing F2 with Up Kano Ball is interesting, is it still 5 frames? But throw is duckable and pressure is interruptable/backdashable so they're not great options.
You can't backdash instant air jump kick on reaction.
Backdash his mixups? Impossible on reaction. You don't have "infinite meter" since he can just be vortexing you rather than you getting to zone.

There is no way you can base a MU number off a "new man that has no experience vs Cyb Kano" lol. Advantage? No one is going to be "reacting" to Scorpion's 50/50 in either option unless the Scorpion is a predictable scrub, and even then it's more of a read. This new "react to anything over 16 frames" TYM dialog is a candidate for biggest bill of all time. Worse than people saying during half of Injustice's lifespan to "react" to KF F3.

On topic, this might be Cyber Kano's single worst MU in the entire game man.

T H A N K Y O U

 

[MK Peanuts]

I would look at that as a reason TO zone inferno I highly doubt the scorpion player is punishing a knife on reaction with TP

A Scorpion player literally did this to me in pools at Combo Breaker

 

[CJKRattlehead]

A Scorpion player literally did this to me in pools at Combo Breaker

my apologies, just checked the frame data and thought kano had way better recovery than that, more then possible that's easy to do on reaction.

Your logic for zoning a variation is because they have an anti-zoning move? You do realise that makes no sense right?

My logic was it's a bigger risk for him than it is for you but looking at the frame data that definetly isn't true.

 

[Youphemism]

My logic was it's a bigger risk for him than it is for you but looking at the frame data that definetly isn't true.

No worries. It sucks though when you're facing a teleport character, never mind one with a vortex...

 

[ando1184]

One thing I like doing vs tele characters and in the zoning game altogether, is faking if I'm going to throw knife or not. By just inputting the DF motion, it creates false zoning pressure. By doing this I see how the opponent reacts and I adjust accordingly. Plus, I can block anything in time if I need to. I haven't been seeing anyone else really doing this? Try it out guys, it baits out things pretty well and leaves them guessing. Just make sure you mix it in with your knives and footsie game, that's where it's most effective.

 

[DharmaBum]

OS F4 knives whenever facing teleprters when they are waking up either knives come out or you stuff there Tele with a ball

 

[villainous monk]

No worries. It sucks though when you're facing a teleport character, never mind one with a vortex...

This is very true. I find the other variations to be a bit more tolerable against TP's but Cyber has a lot of trouble. I would not want continue rushing and then draw myself back to bait out another TP just to get caught in a very dangerous 50/50 situation. What I'm basically asking is there a answer besides knifes, up ball or 2,f4 & b312?

 

[FlappyDaniel]

This video was posted in m2dave's "Footsies are dead" thread, theres a lot of great play by coach steve in how to approach that matchup. His opponent switches to scorpion.

 

[Phosferrax]

There is no way you can base a MU number off a "new man that has no experience vs Cyb Kano" lol. Advantage? No one is going to be "reacting" to Scorpion's 50/50 in either option unless the Scorpion is a predictable scrub, and even then it's more of a read. This new "react to anything over 16 frames" TYM dialog is a candidate for biggest bill of all time. Worse than people saying during half of Injustice's lifespan to "react" to KF F3.

On topic, this might be Cyber Kano's single worst MU in the entire game man.

Do you mean the overhead that links into spear/low minion?

 

[SaltShaker]

Do you mean the overhead that links into spear/low minion?

Yes. Just because the combo overhead is over 20 frames does not mean that it is going to be "reacted to" every time it's used in the heat of battle. If Scorpion just stands there like a statue and throws it out then of course, but in the middle of all the action with so many things to watch out for no one realistic "reacts and blocks" these things.

I've yet to see anything be "reacted to" consistently that wasn't uber zombie slow. Hell Grundy and his 30 frame was catching the best players for years. This new line of "oh I can block it in practice mode" is not realistic to an actual match. Yes it being slower makes it easier to react to, but it does not make it something you can consistently "block low and react to the high" and be successful at all times.

 

[Rude]

Yes. Just end ause the combo overhead is over 20 frames does not mean that it is going to be "reacted to" every time it's used in the heat of battle. If Scorpion just stands there like a statue and throws it out then of course, but in the middle of all the action with so many things to watch out for no one realistic "reacts and blocks" these things.

I've yet to see anything be "reacted to" consistently that wasn't uber zombie slow. Hell Grundy and his 30 frame was catching the best players for years. This new line of "oh I can block it in practice mode" is not realistic to an actual match. Yes it being slower makes it easier to react to, but it does not make it something you can consistently "block low and react to the high" and be successful at all times.

People were still getting hit with Harley's overhead at the end of Injustice's life.

People drastically overestimate their reactions.