Match-up Discussion Juicy VIII.c: My Final(ized) MU chart

[cR_whiteboi]

Don't stop the derailment. The tension between cowboy and king is juicy.

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

Don't stop the derailment. The tension between cowboy and king is juicy.

I CAN'T WAIT FOR MK X

 

[Pnut]

King and Cowboy are killing the thread. They are both super edgy.

 

[ForeverKing]

Then why aren't you waiting to blow up his B13 or jump at footsie range?

If you jump at footsies ranged you get D2'd, easily. It's not really an option

B1 is a guessing game, you aren't always going to blow it up. GL can B1~Bouncel Cancel, B1~MB rocket, B1 by itself.

You act like Batman is going to blow up B1 every single time. It's a guess. And it's not always easy to react to the B1 of GL is using it sparingly

 

[ForeverKing]

King and Cowboy are killing the thread. They are both super edgy.

This thread was made to be juicy, nobody really even cared about the matchup chart lol. It was meant to be more about juice then actual Doomsday talk.
I never even seen any Doomsday talk besides Doomsday vs GL discussion a couple pages ago

 

[Slips]

All of lantern's options to beat out batman's options require lantern to take a risk, with a fully punishable lift or a terrible b13 guessing game. And yea, if you are constantly trying to dash into his face then you are probably never going to get in. You need to play lamer.

You've been given scenarios where GL apparently has no risk. Instant air rockets at the right spacing and max range lift. If you choose to ignore these arguments then people aren't going to assume a Sinestro player is right and you will be considered wrong.

Batman can't play lamer if he gets outzoned and loses at midscreen. He must go in and play GL's game. That sounds like a losing matchup to me.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

If you jump at footsies ranged you get D2'd, easily. It's not really an option

B1 is a guessing game, you aren't always going to blow it up. GL can B1~Bouncel Cancel, B1~MB rocket, B1 by itself.

You act like Batman is going to blow up B1 every single time. It's a guess. And it's not always easy to react to the B1 of GL is using it sparingly

No i am saying that you should wait to blow up his jump or b1. You are right that you won't blow up b1 every time, but it is a guessing game that is in your favor.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

You've been given scenarios where GL apparently has no risk. Instant air rockets at the right spacing and max range lift. If you choose to ignore these arguments then people aren't going to assume a Sinestro player is right and you will be considered wrong.

Batman can't play lamer if he gets outzoned and loses at midscreen. He must go in and play GL's game. That sounds like a losing matchup to me.

Instant air rocket is literally the only scenario that isn't risky, and i haven't seen lantern beat anyone with just air rocket since early 2013. If he's doing that, batman should either be zoning back or dashing into his b1 range to play the guessing game

 

[Slips]

Instant air rocket is literally the only scenario that isn't risky, and i haven't seen lantern beat anyone with just air rocket since early 2013. If he's doing that, batman should either be zoning back or dashing into his b1 range to play the guessing game

You said yourself you don't even know if Batman can punish max range lift which I think should be considered a big deal.

You act like you can just lame out GL, sit there and force him to take the b1 guessing game when its just not true.

First of all, it's a guessing game that's about even for both of you. You can get launched for trying to backdash b13 just as bad as you can launch him for backdashing it. And he can launch you for trying to punish b1 just like you can launch him for doing b1 by itself or doing b1~rocket. Risk/reward sounds even to me, especially givin GL's knockdown game is sick once he hits you. Probably as bad as Batman's vortex.

Secondly, if GL knows you're just going to sit there and block b1 he can move in and do f2 guessing game, space b13 to where it cannot be backdashed, (if the tip hits its not possible) or b3 to get frames and do whatever that player likes. Knowing how to blow up b1 doesn't mean GL is screwed, it just advances the meta. And to me it sounds like the meta at footsie range is even while GL outzones and wins midscreen. I wanna back you on this but I'm not seeing it.

 

[HomeLee1121]

You said yourself you don't even know if Batman can punish max range lift which I think should be considered a big deal.

You act like you can just lame out GL, sit there and force him to take the b1 guessing game when its just not true.

First of all, it's a guessing game that's about even for both of you. You can get launched for trying to backdash b13 just as bad as you can launch him for backdashing it. And he can launch you for trying to punish b1 just like you can launch him for doing b1 by itself or doing b1~rocket. Risk/reward sounds even to me, especially givin GL's knockdown game is sick once he hits you. Probably as bad as Batman's vortex.

Secondly, if GL knows you're just going to sit there and block b1 he can move in and do f2 guessing game, space b13 to where it cannot be backdashed, (if the tip hits its not possible) or b3 to get frames and do whatever that player likes. Knowing how to blow up b1 doesn't mean GL is screwed, it just advances the meta. And to me it sounds like the meta at footsie range is even while GL outzones and wins midscreen. I wanna back you on this but I'm not seeing it.

you know, i said on the podcast if you don't play a character don't talk about their MU's.......i am incredibly retarded for ever saying that. I massively apologize for saying that.

@GGA Saucy Jack

 

[ForeverKing]

No i am saying that you should wait to blow up his jump or b1. You are right that you won't blow up b1 every time, but it is a guessing game that is in your favor.

Why would GL ever jump at you? He doesn't have to.
Actually if GL jumps at Batman, his J3 is most likely going to beat my D2, he can kind of jump at me freely. He can jump back safely with rocket.

If I have to wait for him to make a move that means I'm playing his game, I don't get to play my game

 

[Slips]

you know, i said on the podcast if you don't play a character don't talk about their MU's.......i am incredibly retarded for ever saying that. I massively apologize for saying that.

@GGA Saucy Jack

I normally stay out of characters and matchups I don't know, but these two have been going at it long enough. Someone had to start being arbitrator so they can move on with their lives lol.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

You said yourself you don't even know if Batman can punish max range lift which I think should be considered a big deal.

I believe he can. Absolute max range lift isn't as far as you'd think, and LM takes forever to recover.

 

[Slips]

I believe he can. Absolute max range lift isn't as far as you'd think, and LM takes forever to recover.

lol well 'believing' he can may not be reality so I don't know what the point was in saying anything. This isn't hard to find out so I don't know why anybody clarifies.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

lol well 'believing' he can may not be reality so I don't know what the point was in saying anything. This isn't hard to find out so I don't know why anybody clarifies.

I have tested it and trait bats punish.

 

[Slips]

I have tested it and trait bats punish.

Ok so that eliminates one of GL's unpinishable options. I will state that GL can simply see if Batman has bats out or not to help determine if he should lift or not, so I'm not sure if it's enough to really sway any numbers. What about instant air rocket at Batman's legs? Can he do anything about that?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Ok so that eliminates one of GL's unpinishable options. I will state that GL can simply see if Batman has bats out or not to help determine if he should lift or not, so I'm not sure if it's enough to really sway any numbers. What about instant air rocket at Batman's legs? Can he do anything about that?

He has to be extremely lucky. I wouldn't depend on it. Needs 3 bats (for the added juggle time) and has to be holding back and release the bats at the absolute perfect time. It's hard enough to do in practice mode, let alone a match.

 

[Sajam]

I like how it takes 2 top level Batman players, 2 top level Green Lantern players, and Slips as a moderator to try and convince Wound about a MU between two characters he doesn't main.

I hope I'm not the only person enjoying this.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

You said yourself you don't even know if Batman can punish max range lift which I think should be considered a big deal.

You act like you can just lame out GL, sit there and force him to take the b1 guessing game when its just not true.

First of all, it's a guessing game that's about even for both of you. You can get launched for trying to backdash b13 just as bad as you can launch him for backdashing it. And he can launch you for trying to punish b1 just like you can launch him for doing b1 by itself or doing b1~rocket. Risk/reward sounds even to me, especially givin GL's knockdown game is sick once he hits you. Probably as bad as Batman's vortex.

Secondly, if GL knows you're just going to sit there and block b1 he can move in and do f2 guessing game, space b13 to where it cannot be backdashed, (if the tip hits its not possible) or b3 to get frames and do whatever that player likes. Knowing how to blow up b1 doesn't mean GL is screwed, it just advances the meta. And to me it sounds like the meta at footsie range is even while GL outzones and wins midscreen. I wanna back you on this but I'm not seeing it.

What's weird is that it seems like we are saying the same thing but interpreting it differently. As you said, the guessing game in the neutral is EVEN. I'm not saying that batman takes away all of gl's options, but i am saying that they both have answers with consequences that are almost identical. I am mentiong the laming out thing because i think that batman players are not being patient enough. Movement sucks in injustice, so i think people try to overcompensate by being super aggressive. Being patient opens up the opponent to being rushed down because they have learned that you aren't going to dash in like a madman. Being aggressive makes them want to throw out risky moves like lift and b1. The matchup needs to be played by alternating these two playstyles. I think batman players lean towards being aggressive way too often. He is one of the best defensive characters in the game. Idk if any of that makes sense but its how i see the game.

 

[Slips]

What's weird is that it seems like we are saying the same thing but interpreting it differently. As you said, the guessing game in the neutral is EVEN. I'm not saying that batman takes away all of gl's options, but i am saying that they both have answers with consequences that are almost identical. I am mentiong the laming out thing because i think that batman players are not being patient enough. Movement sucks in injustice is bad, so i think people try to overcompensate by being super aggressive. Being patient opens up the opponent to being rushed down because they have learned that you aren't going to dash in like a madman. Being aggressive makes them want to throw out risky moves like lift and b1. The matchup needs to be played by alternating these two playstyles. I think batman players lean towards being aggressive way too often. He is one of the best defensive characters in the game. Idk if any of that makes sense but its how i see the game.

I will say this. I consider DS vs. GL to be either a 5-5 or a slightly 6-4 in DS's favor at best mainly because the neutral game is very even and DS ultimately outzones GL. I could see this being the same for GL vs. Batman with a slight advantage to GL because he ultimately outzones Batman. But I think you guys are splitting hairs here. Regardless of whatever the 'real' matchup number is, it's pretty close to even and the better player should win most of the time in this matchup.

 

[The Highlander]

I hope all the GL and batman mains appreciate how awesome it is to have like 4 top players openly discussing the ins and outs of the match-up. I wish this type of thing happened for all of the characters (Mostly mine though) @Pnut come in here and stir up some WW controversy with king or something.

 

[Rude]

So wait, Batman mains are losing toGL's zoning because they're not being patient? Did people miss the part where i talked about the pushback of traited, mb minigun? Am i talking to myself here?

 

[KingHippo]

You may be right about Batman being defensive, but there is a problem that opens up, which I experienced not too long before I dropped Lantern for good. Green Lantern, while not much of an offensive juggernaut, is extremely good at defensive meter building, particularly when he's got trait on. With trait on, instant air bullet is very very fast and mini-gun goes full screen. Either way, he builds a lot of meter by throwing out those specials when he's not being rushed in on, and with any bar at all Batman's defensive game gets weak for a big reason: he simply can not match the damage that GL's projectiles put out. If Batman is just sitting back, letting GL just do bullets, he will have to do something (Batarang, trait bat, grapple, anything really) to stop all that garbage, and therein lies the problem. Throwing a batarang can be reacted about just past midscreen with MB Bullet from Lantern for big damage, something like 20%. Batman can't hope to match that with his 'rangs or his trait bat, which is what I felt pushed it hard for Lantern. I was initially very concerned with the B13 dilemma, but I figured the defensive edge was quite strong; Batman is the one forced to do something, and Lantern can be very good at controlling those scenarios with his long range combo starters.

Batman may have good lame, but I think he's outmatched here. The b1 going under trait bat is a very real scenario, and his d2 is good enough to be mashed out between trait bat and crossup to force a trade at worst, which is still bad news bears for Batman. His wakeup being below average also doesn't help against Lantern, an oki god. Batman does have some solid options: Lantern can't really match his up close offense and without trait on, air bullet certainly doesn't come out as easy. Regular bullet, as fast as it is, is bad on duck, and Batman is the king of long range punishing.

Ultimately, I had to give the edge to Lantern. It's not a huge edge, but it's an edge. Batman normally doesn't have a problem with a strong defensive game, but much like Aquaman, if jumping in is difficult due to a fast and strong hitbox d2 and he can't move in so easy, then he will probably struggle. Luckily, Lantern doesn't have anything as broke as Trident Rush or Water of Life to really skew the odds, but he does so much damage off of plain zoning that Batman can't really afford to trade, and it's hard to stop a traited Lantern from building all the meter he needs.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

So wait, Batman mains are losing toGL's zoning because they're not being patient? Did people miss the part where i talked about the pushback of traited, mb minigun? Am i talking to myself here?

You may be right about Batman being defensive, but there is a problem that opens up, which I experienced not too long before I dropped Lantern for good. Green Lantern, while not much of an offensive juggernaut, is extremely good at defensive meter building, particularly when he's got trait on. With trait on, instant air bullet is very very fast and mini-gun goes full screen. Either way, he builds a lot of meter by throwing out those specials when he's not being rushed in on, and with any bar at all Batman's defensive game gets weak for a big reason: he simply can not match the damage that GL's projectiles put out. If Batman is just sitting back, letting GL just do bullets, he will have to do something (Batarang, trait bat, grapple, anything really) to stop all that garbage, and therein lies the problem. Throwing a batarang can be reacted about just past midscreen with MB Bullet from Lantern for big damage, something like 20%. Batman can't hope to match that with his 'rangs or his trait bat, which is what I felt pushed it hard for Lantern. I was initially very concerned with the B13 dilemma, but I figured the defensive edge was quite strong; Batman is the one forced to do something, and Lantern can be very good at controlling those scenarios with his long range combo starters.

Batman may have good lame, but I think he's outmatched here. The b1 going under trait bat is a very real scenario, and his d2 is good enough to be mashed out between trait bat and crossup to force a trade at worst, which is still bad news bears for Batman. His wakeup being below average also doesn't help against Lantern, an oki god. Batman does have some solid options: Lantern can't really match his up close offense and without trait on, air bullet certainly doesn't come out as easy. Regular bullet, as fast as it is, is bad on duck, and Batman is the king of long range punishing.

Ultimately, I had to give the edge to Lantern. It's not a huge edge, but it's an edge. Batman normally doesn't have a problem with a strong defensive game, but much like Aquaman, if jumping in is difficult due to a fast and strong hitbox d2 and he can't move in so easy, then he will probably struggle. Luckily, Lantern doesn't have anything as broke as Trident Rush or Water of Life to really skew the odds, but he does so much damage off of plain zoning that Batman can't really afford to trade, and it's hard to stop a traited Lantern from building all the meter he needs.

I should have clarified more. When i say that batman is a good defensive character, i don't mean that he can only play defensively, i just think that this strength is underused by batman players. They need to do a better job of balancing going in with being defensive, because right now the balance is skewed towards being super aggressive.

 

[KingHippo]

They could try it, but I imagine they would run into the above scenarios. Someone (I think it was @Rude) said that GL was a lesser Aquaman, and I think that's a very astute statement. He's not quite as strong, but on paper their game is very simple, and Batman, as a melee character doesn't like it. Lucikily, Batman's trait is so good as a momentum stopper that he doesn't get zoned out too badly by most, but I think in this match, where a projectile trade means he loses damage and is knocked down, and he can't jump as freely as he normally could, means that his trait isn't quite as effective here as it normally would be. If he had better ways at forcing GL to play the b1 game I could agree with him doing just fine, probably even taking the edge, but without that x-factor I can't see it happening.