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Match-up Discussion Juicy VIII.c: My Final(ized) MU chart

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
So, here's something I don't understand.

Wound Cowboy says that beating characters in tournament with Batman or losing to certain characters in tournament with Batman doesn't determine a match-up. That's fine.

Wound Cowboy says that if you are a Batman main of the highest level, and you play long sets, literally hundreds of games, against other character representatives at the same level as you, that is not the way to determine a match-up. All right. I'll meet you half way.

Then, Wound Cowboy says that these high-level reps that are saying that their character beats Batman are also wrong, even after they have played the match-up again and again and again.

So if King is wrong, if DjT is wrong, if Arma is wrong, if Gross is wrong...

Why? Why are they wrong? If they ALL agree that GL beats Batman, what makes them wrong?

You see, in a different thread I asked Cowboy to explain his number. Not spout out generic talking points of simply quote the number over and over again, but actually provide a detailed analysis of what makes Green Lantern vs. Batman even.

Clearly, if he knows something that DjT, King, Arma, and Gross do not, then surely he'd be able to explain himself.

And yet...nothing. So I'm wondering. If top level players of Green Lantern are saying he wins, and Batman mains say Green Lantern wins, why are we not allowed to take their word for it? At the very least, I'm very certain that all of them can actually articulate why they feel the way they do. Simply saying, "I don't think Batman players are grinding the MU" is an extremely vague and convenient talking point. It allows you to LOOK like you're saying something when you actually haven't said anything at all.

Also, what sense does that make? Let's take HomeLee, for example. He's a serious tournament player. What sense does it make to say that he doesn't grind the match-up out? If he is a tournament player who wants to win, which clearly he does or he wouldn't compete, why WOULDN'T he grind the match-up out? This same question applies to anyone who wants to be competitive. Obviously, they grind every match up in the game either in person or online. To not do so would make no sense and be counterproductive to being a competitive player.

So what exactly should high-level players do to understand a match-up if playing hundreds of games with players of equal skill doesn't count?

Better question: What makes Batman and Green Lantern an even match-up? Specifically explain, in detail, at varying parts of the screen and in several scenarios, talking all tools into account, why it is even. Because otherwise, Cowboy, you're not actually saying anything. Shaking your head over and over again and quoting the number without giving an explanation does exactly diddly. It actually achieves about as much as shitting on one player's method of figuring out a match-up(which is what you're doing) and again, not providing a better method of your own.

Even better question: What "counts"?

If Cowboy knows a 100% full-proof method of determining the match-up number, then why hasn't he broken it down? Again, if he knows something as huge as that, something that could only benefit everyone, why not share it? What do you accomplish simply by tearing down one method and not providing one of your own?

At least King is trying to explain himself.

So again, I ask, what makes it even? Explain it, for once.
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
....... So two doomsday mains, who are the best in the world with him vs the best GL in world are wrong. And now an alt doomsday wants to play.
I'm gonna go cut myself peace.
I don't get why people get so defensive about their opinion of a MU. Surely you might want to listen to a top player who has a more optimistic view of the MU, you might learn something, it's not like he has a more negative view.

It's like when Pig for months said that Zod lost 3-7 to sinestro and wouldn't hear of anything else, then Armor showed him why it wasn't.
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
So, here's something I don't understand.

Wound Cowboy says that beating characters in tournament with Batman or losing to certain characters in tournament with Batman doesn't determine a match-up. That's fine.

Wound Cowboy says that if you are a Batman main of the highest level, and you play long sets, literally hundreds of games, against other character representatives at the same level as you, that is not the way to determine a match-up. All right. I'll meet you half way.

Then, Wound Cowboy says that these high-level reps that are saying that their character beats Batman are also wrong, even after they have played the match-up again and again and again.

So if King is wrong, if DjT is wrong, if Arma is wrong, if Gross is wrong...

Why? Why are they wrong? If they ALL agree that GL beats Batman, what makes them wrong?

You see, in a different thread I asked Cowboy to explain his number. Not spout out generic talking points of simply quote the number over and over again, but actually provide a detailed analysis of what makes Green Lantern vs. Batman even.

Clearly, if he knows something that DjT, King, Arma, and Gross do not, then surely he'd be able to explain himself.

And yet...nothing. So I'm wondering. If top level players of Green Lantern are saying he wins, and Batman mains say Green Lantern wins, why are we not allowed to take their word for it? At the very least, I'm very certain that all of them can actually articulate why they feel the way they do. Simply saying, "I don't think Batman players are grinding the MU" is an extremely vague and convenient talking point. It allows you to LOOK like you're saying something when you actually haven't said anything at all.

Also, what sense does that make? Let's take HomeLee, for example. He's a serious tournament player. What sense does it make to say that he doesn't grind the match-up out? If he is a tournament player who wants to win, which clearly he does or he wouldn't compete, why WOULDN'T he grind the match-up out? This same question applies to anyone who wants to be competitive. Obviously, they grind every match up in the game either in person or online. To not do so would make no sense and be counterproductive to being a competitive player.

So what exactly should high-level players do to understand a match-up if playing hundreds of games with players of equal skill doesn't count?

Better question: What makes Batman and Green Lantern an even match-up? Specifically explain, in detail, at varying parts of the screen and in several scenarios, talking all tools into account, why it is even. Because otherwise, Cowboy, you're not actually saying anything. Shaking your head over and over again and quoting the number without giving an explanation does exactly diddly. It actually achieves about as much as shitting on one player's method of figuring out a match-up(which is what you're doing) and again, not providing a better method of your own.

Even better question: What "counts"?

If Cowboy knows a 100% full-proof method of determining the match-up number, then why hasn't he broken it down? Again, if he knows something as huge as that, something that could only benefit everyone, why not share it? What do you accomplish simply by tearing down one method and not providing one of your own?

At least King is trying to explain himself.

So again, I ask, what makes it even? Explain it, for once.
Okay. The way I see it is that GL probably slightly outfootsies Batman. Bats can compete with B1, but B1 is definitely more likely to hit.I think that Batman probably wins the zoning war. Straight rocket is a fast projectile but unlike Batman's, it is duckable. This means that GL has to go in, take his chances with air rocket or at least close the distance. Air rocket will not be enough to beat Batman because it does very little damage and because Batman can beat it out with an up batarang or a preemptive jump 2 into a combo. Once they are at footsie range, everything is in Batman's favor. He can play his normal game by jumping in or dashing in and starting pressure. If he thinks GL is going to get cute, he can either aa him or play the B13 guessing game which is MASSIVELY in Batman's favor. If GL guesses wrong, then Batman gets a full combo into an ambiguous standing reset. I think Batman players need to be more defensive; they want to go ham too often.

BTW, no Batman player has actually listed specific reasons as you requested.
 
Okay. The way I see it is that GL probably slightly outfootsies Batman. Bats can compete with B1, but B1 is definitely more likely to hit.I think that Batman probably wins the zoning war. Straight rocket is a fast projectile but unlike Batman's, it is duckable. This means that GL has to go in, take his chances with air rocket or at least close the distance. Air rocket will not be enough to beat Batman because it does very little damage and because Batman can beat it out with an up batarang or a preemptive jump 2 into a combo. Once they are at footsie range, everything is in Batman's favor. He can play his normal game by jumping in or dashing in and starting pressure. If he thinks GL is going to get cute, he can either aa him or play the B13 guessing game which is MASSIVELY in Batman's favor. If GL guesses wrong, then Batman gets a full combo into an ambiguous standing reset. I think Batman players need to be more defensive; they want to go ham too often.

BTW, no Batman player has actually listed specific reasons as you requested.
Actually playing defensive won't do much cuz GL will just build meter and gain a life lead. Once GL gets a knock down, bats wakeups are disgusting and he is going to have to deal with his setups. Also GL can b1, under bats at times and his d2 is a great AA to use. Also add in GLs jump 1 which blows up bats j2 and he wins the projectile trade game. I could list some other things but these are key factors that must be noted.
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
Actually playing defensive won't do much cuz GL will just build meter and gain a life lead. Once GL gets a knock down, bats wakeups are disgusting and he is going to have to deal with his setups. Also GL can b1, under bats at times and his d2 is a great AA to use. Also add in GLs jump 1 which blows up bats j2 and he wins the projectile trade game. I could list some other things but these are key factors that must be noted.
I think that GL is playing a losing game if he has to play defensively. Air rocket is a risk and outside of that, he has no way of taking chip but Batman, however, does. GL's jp 1 and his b1 are good tools, but Batman can blow them up with the proper read. GL cannot try to attack Batman and defend against his jump ins and dash ins at the same time.
 

Slips

Feared by dragons. Desired by virgins.
Okay. The way I see it is that GL probably slightly outfootsies Batman. Bats can compete with B1, but B1 is definitely more likely to hit.I think that Batman probably wins the zoning war. Straight rocket is a fast projectile but unlike Batman's, it is duckable. This means that GL has to go in, take his chances with air rocket or at least close the distance. Air rocket will not be enough to beat Batman because it does very little damage and because Batman can beat it out with an up batarang or a preemptive jump 2 into a combo. Once they are at footsie range, everything is in Batman's favor. He can play his normal game by jumping in or dashing in and starting pressure. If he thinks GL is going to get cute, he can either aa him or play the B13 guessing game which is MASSIVELY in Batman's favor. If GL guesses wrong, then Batman gets a full combo into an ambiguous standing reset. I think Batman players need to be more defensive; they want to go ham too often.

BTW, no Batman player has actually listed specific reasons as you requested.

Hmmm I'm not sure the whole reason GL has to get in is because air rocket is too risky because of up batarang. Isn't it just as risky for Batman to throw out an up batarang in fear of lift? Can Batman even punish max distance lift?
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Actually Cowboy, playing lame and walking back is exactly what successful Green Lanterns do vs. Batman.

At the beginning of the match, we have to react to whatever GL decides to do. We can't backdash the b1, air stripper dust gets beaten by lift, and our j2 gets beaten by j1. From the start of the round, Green Lantern sets the tone of the match. So at the beginning, because we have to respect those options, Green Lantern can start walking back.

You have to understand that Green Lantern's backwalk speed is a lot better than our forward walk speed. So right from the word, "go," he controls the pace. Now yes, we can use trait to get in. Kind of. If he we release trait and dash, jump in, a couple things can happen:

Green Lantern can b1 under the bats and blow us up.
He can hold all of the dats and block the trait bats, allow us to start pressure. This is ideal.
He can block the trait bats and mash out a d2, something that beats Release Bats xx B3. Anyone in the cast can do this.

So if you have a Green Lantern that is walking back, you have to be extremely cautious of dashing in as Batman has a long dash with some recovery frames so that can be blown up with B1. We could jump, but that gets lifted/d2'd/dashed/and blown up by j1.

If we try to walk after him, we will never, ever close the gap. His backwalk is that much faster than Batman's forward walk.

Now as far as zoning goes...Batman does not keep up with Lantern. For one thing, Straight missiles recover faster than Batarangs. Also, if he reads you're trying to counterzone with Batarangs, he can jump and do air rockets. Now, unless you've spaced yourself properly, you cannot punish the air missiles. In fact, Batman does not have a consistent answer for air missiles. Straight grapple does not work. Batarangs do not work. Up Batarangs only work at a specific angle/distance. He can block both if you try to use them. In the case of grapple, because it's heavily -, he can throw out another projectile that we have to block. If you block an air missile and try to dash in, you will usually get hit with the straight missile depending on how high the air missile was done at. Also, while he's doing all of this, he has access to interactables that we don't to assist him in keeping us away, since he's a power character. This is one of those match-ups where stage does matter.

So generally speaking, we can at least agree that Batman has to use trait to get in. But wait! There's more! As he's walking back, Green Lantern can activate trait and use Gatling Gun, which pushes us near(not at, but close to) full-screen and we have to restart our approach all over again.

Now, let's look at the footsies game:

If we're outside B1 range, we only have so many options. Releasing trait can be b1'd under. If we jump, he has lift and d2. If we dash, see above. We have to get INSIDE b1 to get anything going. Now, I know what you're thinking, "Green Lantern has to worry about bats if he's trying to get in on you." It's true that we can backdash b1. But how does that help? If anything, the situation is at neutral unless we release trait as we're backdashing. Doing that gets a combo into set-ups/dammy/etc, which is good. If we don't have the trait, then the situation is back to neutral again. So it's a mixed bag.

To an extent, if we have a lifelead, sure. If we don't...why would he even need to rush us down? He can stand outside b1 range and as soon as we attempt to advance, he can walk back. This will cause a jump-in to whiff and allow him to trip guard with b1 or just use lift. We've already established that we have to use our trait to try and get in. If we do, it does help. I won't deny that. Which is why it's only 4-6. Once we're inside b1 range, we can get our business going.

But before we get there, we have to get past MB Minigun, Lift, j1, and b1. We have to deal with Lantern's tools before he has to deal with ours. So the wise Green Lantern player will walk back, use his footsie tools and zoning to keep us at bay. Green Lantern plays this match-up a lot like Aquaman does, only Aqua is a hell of a lot worse.
 

Shaazzyam

undefeated online evo champion
I grind my matchups, that's how I know them. That's how I know it's a bad matchup, that's why I counterpick. If I was the only person saying xyz was a bad matchup it'd be different, but it's literally the world vs you on some matchups and you still think your right over everyone else. Like I've said in the past, I've played vs every single character in the game with Batman at least over 200 to 300 times, some characters even more than that. And on top of that I play every single character in the game, and I've played every single character in the game vs top Batman players (aka Dartharma, PL, Nubcakes, Slayer, Bigboy, etc.)

So not only do I know matchups from Batman's side 100 times over, but I also know matchups from the OTHER CHARACTER'S perspective as well. Trust me, nobody on this planet knows Batman in Injustice better than I do. Why do you think I never lose to Batman? I know Batman so well, I could probably beat all the top Batman players in long sets with like 15-20 different characters. I block all his mixups on reactions, I pushblock so he loses bats, my defense is so good it's impossible for Batman to open me up. I'll block 30 second blockstrings until the Batman player has no resources, that's when he's done. Who cares about his chip damage, it's very miniscule.

Anyways I'm not trying to say Batman's a bad character, that's not the point of this post. He's decent, but once you know how to fight him he's done. Especially if you have a good D2, ggs. And nobody knows how to fight him better than me, because I know him better than anyone else. If anyone has the best grasp on his matchup chart, it's me. I grind all of Batman's matchups, from both perspectives Batman and the other character. Nobody would know Batman's matchups better than I would, I have fought with him over 10000 times and fought against him 1000's of times as well with different characters
Bro aren't you're forgetting the sicknasty Batman who bodied your Sinestro free af with never before seen tech the other day...

His name rhymes with shazzyam
 
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cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
Hmmm I'm not sure the whole reason GL has to get in is because air rocket is too risky because of up batarang. Isn't it just as risky for Batman to throw out an up batarang in fear of lift? Can Batman even punish max distance lift?
Last post in here and then we can move it, i don't want to derail this thread anymore. Lift has great range, but batman shouldn't be throwing batarangs often when he is in lift range. Air rocket is a high risk, low reward move. If batman reads it he can either jp 2 it and fully punish or he can dash under it and fully punish ( he has a great dash). I haven't tested punishing lift but i would think that bats would be able to punish it.
 

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
Last post in here and then we can move it, i don't want to derail this thread anymore. Lift has great range, but batman shouldn't be throwing batarangs often when he is in lift range. Air rocket is a high risk, low reward move. If batman reads it he can either jp 2 it and fully punish or he can dash under it and fully punish ( he has a great dash). I haven't tested punishing lift but i would think that bats would be able to punish it.
I think instant air rockets can punish a dash maybe. And it recovers too quickly if GL is traited up.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Bats can punish lift from max range, but that's about it.

Batman's dash is long, which is good, but it has frames of recovery. If we're talking about Batman standing outside of lift range, why on earth is GL throwing air rockets? Why doesn't he just walk back and do minigun? It pushes Batman further back, anyway, which is what he wants. Batman has no answer for Air rocket unless he's traited up at a specific range, or if he's in the right range for up batarang. At max lift distance, GL can walk back THEN jump and do air blast with little consequence because air rockets recover very quickly.
 

ForeverKing

Patreon.com/MK_ForeverKing
Last post in here and then we can move it, i don't want to derail this thread anymore. Lift has great range, but batman shouldn't be throwing batarangs often when he is in lift range. Air rocket is a high risk, low reward move. If batman reads it he can either jp 2 it and fully punish or he can dash under it and fully punish ( he has a great dash). I haven't tested punishing lift but i would think that bats would be able to punish it.
Who cares if this thread gets derailed, it was a troll thread to begin with and nobody is even talking about Doomsday anymore.

Anyways, that doesn't make sense to say "If GL does air rocket, Batman can punish with J2"

GL should NEVER be doing air rocket if Batman is close enough to hit with J2. If Batman is close enough to hit him with J2, GL should just be playing footsies and waiting for Batman's J2 so he can D2 him. Green Lantern should only be doing air rockets at a distance where he knows they are completely safe.

Green Lantern wins the range game for sure with B1 and lift. He wins the zoning war as well because rockets travel faster than batarangs AND take out more damage. Batman has the advantage when he is right in GL's face, but it's hard to get there. GL's D2 is amazing for negating J2 and keeping Batman out of the air. GL's J1 also beats Batman's J2 90% of the time. Green Lanturn's wakeups are pretty bad so if you knock him down you can put some work in, but still Batman's wakeups are even worse. GL's mixups and hard knockdown pressure is better, but Batman's mobility is better. Their damage output is about equal

Green Lantern's footsies and D2 and lame game almost makes him feel like Aquaman, just not as bad. It's really hard for Batman to stop GL from walking back and just D2'ing all jump ins and outfootsing with B1 and lift the whole match. And that's AFTER Batman can get past the full screen zoning
 

Slips

Feared by dragons. Desired by virgins.
Last post in here and then we can move it, i don't want to derail this thread anymore. Lift has great range, but batman shouldn't be throwing batarangs often when he is in lift range. Air rocket is a high risk, low reward move. If batman reads it he can either jp 2 it and fully punish or he can dash under it and fully punish ( he has a great dash). I haven't tested punishing lift but i would think that bats would be able to punish it.
Well, in order to stop GL from doing air rockets all day according to you he actually would need to throw out a) up batarangs b) j2 c) dash which GL can counter all of those options with lift and b1 covers 2 of those options and avoids the 3rd which is GL's standard game so I'm not sure how GL is not in his comfort zone here.

Not being sure if Batman can punish max range lift with bats is too much of a big deal to not know and talk matchup numbers in my opinion. I think Rude might be right that GL can get at a space to where he can spam instant air rocket and Batman cannot counter with anything besides bats because the air rocket is at a more horizontal angle than up batarang and j2/dash won't reach. (I might be wrong on that, but its worth exploring/mentioning.)

These are all intricacies that need clarification from the Batman/GL mains in order to prove Wound wrong. If GL wins the zoning war and wins at mid screen as well I think it's pretty obvious GL wins then.

EDIT: Nevermind looks like King beat me to it.
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
Well, in order to stop GL from doing air rockets all day according to you he actually would need to throw out a) up batarangs b) j2 c) dash which GL can counter all of those options with lift and b1 covers 2 of those options and avoids the 3rd which is GL's standard game so I'm not sure how GL is not in his comfort zone here.

Not being sure if Batman can punish max range lift with bats is too much of a big deal to not know and talk matchup numbers in my opinion. I think Rude might be right that GL can get at a space to where he can spam instant air rocket and Batman cannot counter with anything besides bats because the air rocket is at a more horizontal angle than up batarang and j2/dash won't reach. (I might be wrong on that, but its worth exploring/mentioning.)

These are all intricacies that need clarification from the Batman/GL mains in order to prove Wound wrong. If GL wins the zoning war and wins at mid screen as well I think it's pretty obvious GL wins then.

EDIT: Nevermind looks like King beat me to it.
All of lantern's options to beat out batman's options require lantern to take a risk, with a fully punishable lift or a terrible b13 guessing game. And yea, if you are constantly trying to dash into his face then you are probably never going to get in. You need to play lamer.
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
Who cares if this thread gets derailed, it was a troll thread to begin with and nobody is even talking about Doomsday anymore.

Anyways, that doesn't make sense to say "If GL does air rocket, Batman can punish with J2"

GL should NEVER be doing air rocket if Batman is close enough to hit with J2. If Batman is close enough to hit him with J2, GL should just be playing footsies and waiting for Batman's J2 so he can D2 him. Green Lantern should only be doing air rockets at a distance where he knows they are completely safe.

Green Lantern wins the range game for sure with B1 and lift. He wins the zoning war as well because rockets travel faster than batarangs AND take out more damage. Batman has the advantage when he is right in GL's face, but it's hard to get there. GL's D2 is amazing for negating J2 and keeping Batman out of the air. GL's J1 also beats Batman's J2 90% of the time. Green Lanturn's wakeups are pretty bad so if you knock him down you can put some work in, but still Batman's wakeups are even worse. GL's mixups and hard knockdown pressure is better, but Batman's mobility is better. Their damage output is about equal

Green Lantern's footsies and D2 and lame game almost makes him feel like Aquaman, just not as bad. It's really hard for Batman to stop GL from walking back and just D2'ing all jump ins and outfootsing with B1 and lift the whole match. And that's AFTER Batman can get past the full screen zoning
Then why aren't you waiting to blow up his B13 or jump at footsie range?