General/Other Joker still sucks

[Rude]

(pre-patch, not post-patch. Ninja fix)

 

[Wigy]

okai

 

[Tom Brady]

Tom Brady, are you on XBL? I'd love to get some matches in sometime. Need to work the Aquaman matchup anyway, and am curious as to your reasoning behind Joker's viability.

Its simple...

I am an EXPERT in playing a lower tiered character in Sub-Zero and placing top 8 a lot..

The key was that I had to make sure that I knew your character better then you did. No character in IGAU is lower then SZ tier, they are AT WORST on par with what he was. The issue is that you guys cannot afford to have the opponent know more about your character then you do about theirs. A mid/lower mid character that has a punchers chance will seem 100% unusable and garbage if this happens. At least half the problem is Joker players are GIVING matches away because they opponent knows more about them then they do about the opposing character.

Once you finally get to the point where you know each character inside and out and are no longer handing your opponent wins, then you can talk about his viability....

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Its simple...

I am an EXPERT in playing a lower tiered character in Sub-Zero and placing top 8 a lot..

The key was that I had to make sure that I knew your character better then you did. No character in IGAU is lower then SZ tier, they are AT WORST on par with what he was. The issue is that you guys cannot afford to have the opponent know more about your character then you do about theirs. A mid/lower mid character that has a punchers chance will seem 100% unusable and garbage if this happens. At least half the problem is Joker players are GIVING matches away because they opponent knows more about them then they do about the opposing character.

Once you finally get to the point where you know each character inside and out and are no longer handing your opponent wins, then you can talk about his viability....

Fair enough, and while I don't have that level of knowledge in this game yet, Qwark28 is pretty up there and says pretty much the same stuff I do. As for me, I'm trying to get more MU experience, but no one on here seems to wanna play... wanna give me some Aquaman MU experience, or are you on PSN/not interested?

 

[Tom Brady]

Fair enough, and while I don't have that level of knowledge in this game yet, Qwark28 is pretty up there and says pretty much the same stuff I do. As for me, I'm trying to get more MU experience, but no one on here seems to wanna play... wanna give me some Aquaman MU experience, or are you on PSN/not interested?

When I played Qwark, it was obvious that I was waaaaay more familiar with Joker then he was with Aquaman. He didn't know about the wake up situation so he ate a lot of free damage that he otherwise would have been aware of. Also, he asked me if I felt it was practical to punish ducked gun shot with FTD because of how consistent i was able to do it from half to 3/4 screen. I told him its only really consistent from half to near 3/4 screen, but not practical any farther back.

So many things he just didn't know, and I consider him to be a very good Joker player and one of the most knowledgeable ones. All that said, he just didn't know about CRUCIAL things in the mu..

Its this way for all Joker players..

The main problem is the opponent knows more about your character then you know about theirs. Hence, you guys are handing out free damage in mu's that you already say you lose.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

When I played Qwark, it was obvious that I was waaaaay more familiar with Joker then he was with Aquaman. He didn't know about the wake up situation so he ate a lot of free damage that he otherwise would have been aware of. Also, he asked me if I felt it was practical to punish ducked gun shot with FTD because of how consistent i was able to do it from half to 3/4 screen. I told him its only really consistent from half to near 3/4 screen, but not practical any farther back.

So many things he just didn't know, and I consider him to be a very good Joker player and one of the most knowledgeable ones. All that said, he just didn't know about CRUCIAL things in the mu..

Its this way for all Joker players..

The main problem is the opponent knows more about your character then you know about theirs. Hence, you guys are handing out free damage in mu's that you already say you lose.

What's the wakeup situation you referred to? Or do you just mean Aquaman's valid wakeup options in general?

 

[Qwark28]

When I played Qwark, it was obvious that I was waaaaay more familiar with Joker then he was with Aquaman. He didn't know about the wake up situation so he ate a lot of free damage that he otherwise would have been aware of. Also, he asked me if I felt it was practical to punish ducked gun shot with FTD because of how consistent i was able to do it from half to 3/4 screen. I told him its only really consistent from half to near 3/4 screen, but not practical any farther back.

So many things he just didn't know, and I consider him to be a very good Joker player and one of the most knowledgeable ones. All that said, he just didn't know about CRUCIAL things in the mu..

Its this way for all Joker players..

The main problem is the opponent knows more about your character then you know about theirs. Hence, you guys are handing out free damage in mu's that you already say you lose.

One thing to note, I did know about the wakeup just frame FTD, I just made horrible reads at the time.

 

[Tom Brady]

What's the wakeup situation you referred to? Or do you just mean Aquaman's valid wakeup options in general?

down to the frame FTD will stuff all his wu attacks (including flower) and hit him if he back dashes or jumps is what i was referring to.

He actually did know about it..

be that as it may, that mu... that is NOT the situation you test FTD

 

[StevoSuprem0]

He didn't know that a down to the frame FTD will stuff all his wu attacks (including flower) and hit him if he back dashes or jumps.

Ah yeah, I think I saw that in one of your videos... can't remember. I probably would have/still will fall for it too haha.
Well I'm guessing it's a no, but if you're interested, it's StevoSuprem0 (zero at end) on XBL as well.

 

[Qwark28]

down to the frame FTD will stuff all his wu attacks (including flower) and hit him if he back dashes or jumps is what i was referring to.

He actually did know about it..

be that as it may, that mu... that is NOT the situation you test FTD

I know exactly what you're saying but I don't judge matchups depending on how I do, that's a very wrong way to do so because I know I do mistakes.

In the DD matchup for example, I've played Metzos countless times offline and know the char inside out, I've played Noobe and PL online too but I NEVER say the matchup is 7-3 because of something like earth shake or "ambiguous" crossup or shit, I have different reasons for bad matchups than the "I get hit by it and get bodied by player X because he does Y things"

Just like I wouldn't judge the aquaman matchup anything more specific than better footsies, anti air and control of space because based on our games I probably would have said aquaman has godlike zoning due to how many times you hit me with from the deep.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I know exactly what you're saying but I don't judge matchups depending on how I do, that's a very wrong way to do so because I know I do mistakes.

In the DD matchup for example, I've played Metzos countless times offline and know the char inside out, I've played Noobe and PL online too but I NEVER say the matchup is 7-3 because of something like earth shake or "ambiguous" crossup or shit, I have different reasons for bad matchups than the "I get hit by it and get bodied by player X because he does Y things"

Just like I wouldn't judge the aquaman matchup anything more specific than better footsies, anti air and control of space because based on our games I probably would have said aquaman has godlike zoning due to how many times you hit me with from the deep.

Can you always reversal punish a blocked FTD with gunshot (FTD is -20 on block) or does the slight travel time on the bullet prevent it? Idk the bullet travel time.

 

[Qwark28]

Can you always reversal punish a blocked FTD with gunshot (FTD is -20 on block) or does the slight travel time on the bullet prevent it? Idk the bullet travel time.

From what I saw you can punish it around jump distance, haven't tested much.

 

[serge]

Joker: has good teeth setups, has one of the best j2 and j3's in the game, has full screen projectile and super, can inflict good damage, crowbar is a beast, has cool costumes. He aint the worst in the game.

I'm positive this guy is trolling. ^

Also Tom Brady... ANY match up that your opponent knows more about your character than you do about his will result in a loss. Saying that this is the main problem about Joker and the Joker players/community tells me you are either trolling or refusing to admit Joker is fucking bad or you have something that you secretly hate about Joker and want him to stay bad forever.

I have never heard anything like that from KDZ or Rico's mouth after they won a tournament. They never ever brought that "I knew more about his character than he knew Superman/BA and this is why I won." This statement is bullshit and you know it.

Good characters have something in common, they all have a game that the opponent will fear.
Superman will bring you in the corner in a blink of an eye and smash your face repeatedly while having strong zoning and amazing mobility.
BA has some of the best mobility tools, free damage trait and all the zoning you could ever wish for.
Batman has top notch pressure that won't let you breath for a second.
Aquaman doesnt't care about half of cast combos and best normals in the game.
Catwoman, Flash and KF all have sick 50/50 that will give you a headache of guessing after 5 matches. Even Harley has her zoning and her meterless 40% combos with decent mix ups.
Etc... Etc... And the list goes on and on as almost every character in the game has something that the opponent will fear or respect.

Which brings me to my point: What does Joker have that makes him feared or respected? Nothing. And don't bring me that corner gimmick he has as everyone knows Joker has the hardest time ever at getting his opponent in the corner. Joker doesn't have a game. He has a bunch of random tools that have basicly no synergy between them. He has no real game.

He has no mix ups, he can't open people up, he has no decent launcher and his zoning is a Joke.

With the tools given to Joker, he was designed to be a ~midscreen zoner and he can't do it for shit.

41 Frame slow as hell projectile that doesn't AA properly (like Harley cupcakes for exemple) and doesn't even hit overhead? Give me a fucking break here.

 

[OnlineRon91]

LMFAO made me spill my goddamn coffee

 

[Neariak]

Chris G still says Joker is a high tier character. I'm gonna take his word for it because some of these Joker mains like BWhizz are going absolutely ape with him. Plus its Chris G who steals majors free with another character that was considered bottom tier.
*mod editted to clean up thread*

Got any videos of BWhizz i'd like to see what this guy can do. ^_^

 

[MashPotatoTower]

Got any videos of BWhizz i'd like to see what this guy can do. ^_^

I wish I did. Lets just say he uses his trait and knows what to do with it. Its like the best trait ;__;

 

[StevoSuprem0]

snip

Good points. A few things though. Joker actually does have pretty decent corner carry from some strings, especially when you cancel into gunshot (212 xx gunshot or 113 xx gunshot, for instance). An issue with that is these are his mid hitting strings that whiff on a bunch of characters that are low blocking. Crowbar is pretty decent corner carry as well, especially if you can get some OTG game going with it, but burns through meter quickly. I wouldn't call the corner stuff gimmicky though. It's solid, but you need to know it very specifically for each matchup because nothing works across the board. Just some things I wanted to clarify. Otherwise, I agree- he has a huge amount of trouble opening people up when they know what he can do, which prevents him from getting to any of this dirt.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Chris G still says Joker is a high tier character. I'm gonna take his word for it because some of these Joker mains like BWhizz are going absolutely ape with him. Plus its Chris G who steals majors free with another character that was considered bottom tier.
*mod editted to clean up thread*

Are you sure Chris G's circuitry hasn't been crossed up and he's actually thinking of MK vs DCU? Otherwise, I'd love to see his reasoning for Joker being high tier... you know, for science.
I've never heard of BWhizz, and am familiar with Qwark, so I guess we just know different people. Definitely would like to see some footage of your guy as well.

 

[MashPotatoTower]

Are you sure Chris G's circuitry hasn't been crossed up and he's actually thinking of MK vs DCU? Otherwise, I'd love to see his reasoning for Joker being high tier... you know, for science.
I've never heard of BWhizz, and am familiar with Qwark, so I guess we just know different people. Definitely would like to see some footage of your guy as well.

BWhizz was thee Raiden player back in the mk9 days. he kept that hat on the map

 

[Tom Brady]

Superman will bring you in the corner in a blink of an eye and smash your face repeatedly.

Check your game man, I think you still have V1.05

 

[Wemfs]

Deal with it.

 

[OnlineRon91]

 

[serge]

Check your game man, I think you still have V1.05

Superman's nerfed corner game >>> Joker's buffed corner game.
And the corner is supposed to be Joker's strength... lol

 

[RM Truth]

I have never heard anything like that from KDZ or Rico's mouth after they won a tournament. They never ever brought that "I knew more about his character than he knew Superman/BA and this is why I won." This statement is bullshit and you know it.

You'll never hear them say that because you don't have to know about your opponent character to play either of them. Superman and Black Adam can play their game regardless of who their opponent is.

 

[Tom Brady]

Joker does not suck...

This forum is more concerned with problems rather than solutions.

You guys woulda played SZ in MK9 and lost and said he sucks while another places top with the same character. Thats all i see here...

I just hope someone focuses on Joker enough to do the same