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Match-up Discussion Joker Matchup Discussion

Fromundaman

I write too much.
BnB that you will use against Doomsday and Grundy most importantly but can be used against others too

J2 32 MB RLG B3 D2 far teeth f23 far teeth 32 one slash far teeth 1 flower followed up with a near instant J3 which will stuff a 6f air snatch

decent wallcarry, 43% and safe jumps every anti air in the game, this is your go-to BnB for pressure outside of crowbar if you want them standed up.
I was messing with teeth loops with 32 recently but due to my terrible execution I hadn't found anything worthwhile yet. Good shit!
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I was messing with teeth loops with 32 recently but due to my terrible execution I hadn't found anything worthwhile yet. Good shit!
a much easier combo is B3 d2 far teeth f23 mid teeth b1 flower, gives more of an advantage and even fi the J2 is blocked you're still + enough to 212. the previous setup was only at +2 or something
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
IDK about DD or Flash, but I've been playing against GL a lot recently and it really doesn't feel 7-3 to me. He's really susceptible to pretty much all wakeup traps.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
IDK about DD or Flash, but I've been playing against GL a lot recently and it really doesn't feel 7-3 to me. He's really susceptible to pretty much all wakeup traps.
expand, which ones exactly other than the sweep to crossup ones
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
expand, which ones exactly other than the sweep to crossup ones
OTGs are universal, so I'll skip those, but since his only invulnerable wakeup is a single hit non-moving wakeup, any time you put teeth on him he now has to guess whether to wakeup or not making every knockdown a 50-50. It gets worse if you throw a MB F3 into the mix since he now has to guess right on the wakeup thing then if he does has to block a hard-to-blockable which itself puts you back in neutral if he does guess right.

Now admittedly, since my tech skill is somewhat lacking, any time I'm not ending a combo in crowbar it's going to end in 21 (Cancel on 1st hit)>teeth, so that's what I'm using for these traps.

It's true that he can tech roll, but so can everyone else depending on the setup and off of 21(first hit), far teeth covers both the tech roll and neutral get up, then you have to guess on the wakeup. Block the wakeup and you get full combo.
If he doesn't wakeup he's faced with a hard-to-blockable off of either F3 or B2 (Yes, I will make some use of this move and you can actually wait to see if he wakes up then react with a B2 that hits right before teeth and starts a combo).






Also outzoning him can be fairly easy on some stages. Themyscara for example is great since the lion's range rivals that of the lift (I think it's just a little smaller but not sure.). Gunshots trade with Oa's rocket (Hold the gun slightly longer when he does the air version to trade) beat out minigun and missile completely and if he tries to jump and use battering ram to get closer when you already have gun out (Assuming you didn't fire on reaction to knock him out of the jump) then you still have time to whiff a shot and block whatever comes next. If you whiffed early enough you can even punish him for it.
Combine that with teeth>Lion head setups and on Themyscara he is going to have a really rough time if he doesn't have a life lead.

On other stages he's going to have an easier time getting back in lift range, but you can still lame him out fairly well if you have the life lead.


Also, blocking low all of the time makes it a lot harder for him to do things at close range.

Ideally GL wants to play this match at lift range, and it's our job not to let him. We go pretty even on the full screen game and in close range. The only place he wins is at well spaced lift range and only places we win are on knockdowns and in the corner.


Feel free to correct anything you see wrong. You have considerably more tournament experience for this game than I. That said I have been playing a pretty good GL (The same guy who gave me Shazam MU experience picked him up) recently on a daily basis, so that's what I've been seeing based off of that and experience with other less skilled GLs we have locally.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
OTGs are universal, so I'll skip those, but since his only invulnerable wakeup is a single hit non-moving wakeup, any time you put teeth on him he now has to guess whether to wakeup or not making every knockdown a 50-50. It gets worse if you throw a MB F3 into the mix since he now has to guess right on the wakeup thing then if he does has to block a hard-to-blockable which itself puts you back in neutral if he does guess right.

Now admittedly, since my tech skill is somewhat lacking, any time I'm not ending a combo in crowbar it's going to end in 21 (Cancel on 1st hit)>teeth, so that's what I'm using for these traps.

It's true that he can tech roll, but so can everyone else depending on the setup and off of 21(first hit), far teeth covers both the tech roll and neutral get up, then you have to guess on the wakeup. Block the wakeup and you get full combo.
If he doesn't wakeup he's faced with a hard-to-blockable off of either F3 or B2 (Yes, I will make some use of this move and you can actually wait to see if he wakes up then react with a B2 that hits right before teeth and starts a combo).






Also outzoning him can be fairly easy on some stages. Themyscara for example is great since the lion's range rivals that of the lift (I think it's just a little smaller but not sure.). Gunshots trade with Oa's rocket (Hold the gun slightly longer when he does the air version to trade) beat out minigun and missile completely and if he tries to jump and use battering ram to get closer when you already have gun out (Assuming you didn't fire on reaction to knock him out of the jump) then you still have time to whiff a shot and block whatever comes next. If you whiffed early enough you can even punish him for it.
Combine that with teeth>Lion head setups and on Themyscara he is going to have a really rough time if he doesn't have a life lead.

On other stages he's going to have an easier time getting back in lift range, but you can still lame him out fairly well if you have the life lead.


Also, blocking low all of the time makes it a lot harder for him to do things at close range.

Ideally GL wants to play this match at lift range, and it's our job not to let him. We go pretty even on the full screen game and in close range. The only place he wins is at well spaced lift range and only places we win are on knockdowns and in the corner.


Feel free to correct anything you see wrong. You have considerably more tournament experience for this game than I. That said I have been playing a pretty good GL (The same guy who gave me Shazam MU experience picked him up) recently on a daily basis, so that's what I've been seeing based off of that and experience with other less skilled GLs we have locally.
21 one slash covers both tech roll and normal stand ups? what about tech roll to backdash? tech roll delayed wakeup?

gunshot will hit an air rocket if its not going to hit you, which is fullscreen and someone wont just whiff it fullscreen

b1 is an excelent footsie tool, we lose up close and since were holding down were not moving, gunshot can be lifted on reaction in lift range too.He can also react to teeth, he completely controls the pace of the game up close

in the end i think he has a slight footsie advantage

lately ive been stopping all midscreen setups in favor of crowbar, it seems that nrs has tried to give us footsie tools due to our requests first in the form of d2 and now with crowbar as a wallcarry tool on top of it, i love the pushback and love that they either wakeup and get hit or dont and get thrown.
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
I actually don't know for tech roll to backdash or the delayed wakeup. I thought tech roll wakeups had no invincibility though, in which case I would assume teeth would hit?

I've traded gunshot with air rockets pretty often, but it is only for about 3/4 screen distance.

In close range, I almost exclusively use D2 in this MU (Or B1 if he's in range of it). It's a couple frames slower than B1, so if you both press it at the same time GL will win, but otherwise it beats out B1 thanks to the disjoinct and canceled into BF3 makes it safe and put you in B1 range. I mean yeah, he has an advantage, but it's not huge at that range. It's outside of D2 range but still in lift range that he becomes a real problem.



Yeah, Crowbar is an amazing tool that I have started using more and more recently.



Oh also, since I find myself building meter like crazy with Joker, especially in any matchup where I can somewhat zone my opponent, I have been trying to use super more.
For the GL matchup, any time you see a grounded Oa's rocket you can super it on reaction. That said, I don't suggest doing it unless A) You really need to reset the momentum of the match or B) You're on your first healthbar and will have time to build meter back up for a clash.



Speaking of which, since I find Joker to be so momentum oriented, has anyone else been using super and clash to reset momentum? It's been rather useful for me.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
super is strictly an ender for me, either via hp or to put them at 1-20% with a huge lifelead
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
Oooooooh.... I thought you meant combo ender.

Yeah, I'll do that occasionally too, but honestly rarely an opportunity to do so.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
DD I would agree is probably safe to put at 4-6.
Flash and GL I play against alot.
GL just dominates so much when he is in range, and it's not too easy to keep him out since Joker's zoning is so easy to penetrate. Only good thing about this matchup is that he doesn't have any great wakeup options to escape setups.
Flash can also get around Joker's zoning insanely easy. I pretty much don't use gun in this matchup anymore... no point at all, you're just going to get punished from alot of places on the screen for 30+% and let him get in your face. Once he's in, he has alot of anti wakeup tech that works great against stupid ass flower, putting us in constant 50/50s. He can flying uppercut out of pretty much every setup we have, but if you read that you can get a big punish.
I currently think they are still 3-7, but maybe somewhere between 4-6 and 3-7. Still not easy fights any way you slice it.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
2:12 or so is the time it begins

http://www.twitch.tv/tru3ta1ent/b/477876027

basically lost in a laggy match with my zod vs his lobo and heard he was doing ft5s on stream, thought id get a runback

this is a very basic style of flash with no pressure what so ever or any mixups considering he never does b22/mb charge or f21 but it showed me a couple of things

you have to chase him before his trait is up and chase him in general
he can get 60% off of the slightest confirm when you have to work for it
J3 cannot be anti aired by flash
use parry occasionally

it also has some setups i do vs ppl who dont like to press buttons as soon as they can
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Time to rejuvenate the Joker Forums.
Here is some footage from The Break last night. I lost to Fran's Superman and Icy's Hawkgirl on stream. Was poised to win and just kinda blew those... idk, off night. I'm getting better though.
There's also some casuals between me and Indecisive's Shazam at the end. I was playing the matchup veeerrrryyy wrong. Still kinda figuring it out. But it's something to watch, so enjoy.
http://www.twitch.tv/8wayrun/b/486498069
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Also, Maxter bodying me at NEC. I played terrible. Did day one crap instead of all the new good stuff, didn't stick to my plan for the Lobo matchup at all, and kept having HLG come out when I was trying to transition from d1 to b1 (I FUCKING HATE THAT...). But oh well, check it out if ya want.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Work on your conversions, you could've won 1-2 rounds if you converted properly.

Don't always go for the same setup and if they're not escaping properly then do something about it, you laid down teeth and obviously baited the hook charge but didn't punish or pushblock it.

Get more familiar with the interactables, a HLG will not reach a rocket from that far, if you think he's gonna do an interactible then forward dash and do an instant J3 or MB f3 to get a guaranteed punish as he comes down.
 

rehti

Noob
Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think these 2-3 HLG were intentional. I don't know but this crap always happen to me as well. it's like, we are crouching then want to B1... I don't know, it also happens when they crossover and we want to gunshot so it does DB instead of BF... You know what I mean..

**yeah I just read the other topic and you confirm it was a B1 attempt.. it sucks...

And yes, I think from all the replay I see (Qwark, stevo, etc,) we do not pushblock enough into those teeth setups. It's like we build meter with gunshot and teeth but when we have the opening, we rarely push them into those teeth...
 
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StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
My conversions are mostly off just because I'm dropping stuff. But yeah, like I said, I just didn't play well in that match. Reverted to really old crap instead of going for newer better setups.
I've been finding that alot of people are suspicious of the 212 xx teeth trap the first time they see it and tend to not try and punish. And once they are familiar with it, it's just a guessing game either way. I simply guess wrong against Maxter. I don't think he knew about it, but he was more aggressive than I anticipated. I did it to KDZ a few times in casuals at the break (off stream) but I have good reads against him for some reason. And I'm starting to fucking hate that setup because so many people have mid-whiffing issues that drive me insaaaaannneee. That shit really needs a hotfix that it's never ever ever going to get.
Footage from the break in the twitch link is better (post before that).
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I'm reffering to the HLG that was to interrupt Maxter from throwing the rocket, I doubt Steve would go for a B1 in that situation almost fullscreen.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Yeah, I think I threw it out anticipating him trying to move forward? I dunno, like I said, played like crap. 'Nuf said. Break footage is better.
 

rehti

Noob
Yeah, I think I threw it out anticipating him trying to move forward? I dunno, like I said, played like crap. 'Nuf said. Break footage is better.
vs Franstastic, why would you stay on that stupid stage? Count how many interractibles you got in the face...
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
He actually asked if I wanted to switch, and I said I should, but didn't really care. Dunno, I guess I just don't play serious enough. I want to work on trying to get around them more by remembering to use flower invulnerability on wakeup and such. I also kinda like using them as bait. I think I got hit by about as many as I did catch with going for one with a j3 into around as much damage if I managed to convert. I tend to force myself to try to play through harder situations to get better at them at locals. Thus, playing Joker in the first place... lol.