Match-up Discussion Joker Matchup Discussion

[laudanum09]

we have good reset combos without d2?

 

[StevoSuprem0]

They're escapeable, but most of his resets are. When people aren't really familiar with Joker (most people) you can catch them with some pretty brutal resets; The one I use right now hits for 96% mid screen =) but is escapable if they block correctly or tech out of it. There are always quick little things like stopping a combo after a b3 and setup a teeth ->crossup ji3 -> combo for some added damage when you catch someone off guard. Little tricks like this are great when you've trained an opponent to expect your combos to be a certain way. That's the beauty of the teeth stuff- they make Joker very good at changing up his gameplay and keeping the opponent guessing.

 

[XxSYNDROISxX]

There are a bunch listed in the combo thread sticky. It's pretty comprehensive. Are you looking for combos leading into teeth setups or things to do with setups?

Yep and they all have D2 in it

 

[laudanum09]

You should probably learn how to use it and cancel from it then. no offense meant, but if you can't cancel the normals of your main and aren't willing to learn then that's kind of a huge execution problem.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Sigh. XxSYNDROISxX If you're looking for help, try using more than 4 words at a time...

I feel like when you say "teeth resets" you mean "using teeth at all" because d2 -> teeth in the bnbs isn't a reset, it's all still a combo. If that is what you're talking about, use 32 MB RLG b3 ji2 32 acid flower instead. It's 4% less damage and much easier to execute.

If you actually are talking about resets, there are tons of way to setup for teeth. I like to use the above combo I just listed, but end with far teeth and ji3 instead of acid flower sometimes. They can tech roll out or just back block and the ji3 hit will push them out of the teeth (unless they are in the corner, in which case they HAVE to have a wakeup that can get them out of they're fucked), but if they don't you have them in the air and can continue with another far teeth ji3 any teeth 3 flower 3 flower for 55%, totaling in the 90s. You can throw teeth after b3 with a really easy loop: b3 close teeth nj3/crossup ji3/f3(MB option there). Can be escaped with some wakeups or tech roll (pretty much all of them can) but is easy to pull of and effective. D2 is also an option but I'd only use that when you are anti airing, in which case it's probably gonna combo due to added launch from them being in the air. You can do 212 teeth and then block before they can hit you (recovery is fast enough) and if needed push block them back onto the teeth, leading to more setups/combos. I probably missed a few, but that should get you started.

 

[KonDcnT]

Just put some time in the lab and was messing around with what Cat was saying .
Ji2, 32RLG MB b3 ji2 d3. This gives a hatd knockdown for potential crossup.
With this in mind I used that but instead of ji2 after b3 I went with the d2 teeth ji2 d3.
the teeth won't hit but may be slightly useful(mental game, maybe).
It gives the same scenario but a different look.
I guess armored wake-ups would blow this up. I just have a feeling
That there is something there that I'm not seeing.

 

[XxSYNDROISxX]

Sigh. XxSYNDROISxX If you're looking for help, try using more than 4 words at a time...

I feel like when you say "teeth resets" you mean "using teeth at all" because d2 -> teeth in the bnbs isn't a reset, it's all still a combo. If that is what you're talking about, use 32 MB RLG b3 ji2 32 acid flower instead. It's 4% less damage and much easier to execute.

If you actually are talking about resets, there are tons of way to setup for teeth. I like to use the above combo I just listed, but end with far teeth and ji3 instead of acid flower sometimes. They can tech roll out or just back block and the ji3 hit will push them out of the teeth (unless they are in the corner, in which case they HAVE to have a wakeup that can get them out of they're fucked), but if they don't you have them in the air and can continue with another far teeth ji3 any teeth 3 flower 3 flower for 55%, totaling in the 90s. You can throw teeth after b3 with a really easy loop: b3 close teeth nj3/crossup ji3/f3(MB option there). Can be escaped with some wakeups or tech roll (pretty much all of them can) but is easy to pull of and effective. D2 is also an option but I'd only use that when you are anti airing, in which case it's probably gonna combo due to added launch from them being in the air. You can do 212 teeth and then block before they can hit you (recovery is fast enough) and if needed push block them back onto the teeth, leading to more setups/combos. I probably missed a few, but that should get you started.

Thanks man yeah this should work. After throwing teeth out on a knockdown what is better to lock them in place flower or gun

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Thanks man yeah this should work. After throwing teeth out on a knockdown what is better to lock them in place flower or gun

Well you're only going to get chip damage off of either of those (all they have to do against either of those is block down). Overheads are the way to go. Used j3 or f3 and if you time it right, they will get hit first by the overhead (or get caught blocking high) and then the teeth, leading to whatever you wanna follow up with. People have also been experimenting with b1 3 and f2 1 (the second hit of both of those are overheads), but I'm not sure if they will synchronize well with it- I think they function well as corner traps, but gotta test it. Mid combo is a different story. In that case (depending what you've done to set it up into the teeth), 3 flower is a great way to get people onto the teeth. If timed correctly, it will either reset the combo (blockable though) or keep it going if you let them fall a little further in a juggle before hitting the 3.

 

[MetaSkipper]

Thought of a set up, though unsure how to execute as a combo ender. After knockdown, throw teeth behind opponent, then go for QN overhead. If they block high, they walk backward into teeth. Block low, they get bopped by an overhead. Teeth also catch tech rolls if on soft knockdown.

 

[Gilbagz]

Thought of a set up, though unsure how to execute as a combo ender. After knockdown, throw teeth behind opponent, then go for QN overhead. If they block high, they walk backward into teeth. Block low, they get bopped by an overhead. Teeth also catch tech rolls if on soft knockdown.

I have this. Recorded a vid of it. Been super busy. Vid will be up in the next week.

 

[laudanum09]

I have this. Recorded a vid of it. Been super busy. Vid will be up in the next week.

What's QN?

also lets see that one 50/50 tech roll teeth setup too!

 

[MetaSkipper]

It was a typo, meant "an."

 

[Gilbagz]

What's QN?

also lets see that one 50/50 tech roll teeth setup too!

Yeah i'll try to get it up this week. Been ridiculously busy these past weeks, barely found time to record. Just have to edit and record a voice over. Will try to get it done over the next few days.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Yeah i'll try to get it up this week. Been ridiculously busy these past weeks, barely found time to record. Just have to edit and record a voice over. Will try to get it done over the next few days.

What do you guys use to make video's on console (I'm on 360)? I have some great dirt with teeth overhead setups, but don't wanna post videos off a cell phone or something... -_-

 

[MetaSkipper]

A cell vid is better than no vid.

 

[Gilbagz]

Initially i had a cell vid but i managed to grab a capture card

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Initially i had a cell vid but i managed to grab a capture card

Cool, thanks meng. I'll probably stick to cell videos for now, don't really wanna throw down $100 for something right now.

 

[Qwark28]

After grinding out the doomsday matchup, im gonna write up a few paragraphs in a few hours.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

After grinding out the doomsday matchup, im gonna write up a few paragraphs in a few hours.

I don't get why his hitbox is weird. He's a big character, but so much juggle stuff whiffs on him. That new video I posted a few days ago, for example, with the teeth loops- Doomsday in the corner requires a different approach than other characters because the second ji2 will whiff on him. I feel like other characters don't really have these concerns... Joker is already low tier, and now to use some of his best damage moves, you gotta know different sequences for each matchup.... Ain't nobody got time fo' that.

At least parry is a good anti-Venom move and Joker is good at dashing under Supernova.

 

[Qwark28]

I don't get why his hitbox is weird. He's a big character, but so much juggle stuff whiffs on him. That new video I posted a few days ago, for example, with the teeth loops- Doomsday in the corner requires a different approach than other characters because the second ji2 will whiff on him. I feel like other characters don't really have these concerns... Joker is already low tier, and now to use some of his best damage moves, you gotta know different sequences for each matchup.... Ain't nobody got time fo' that.

At least parry is a good anti-Venom move and Joker is good at dashing under Supernova.

joker is mid tier, theres no way a character with so much setup potential is low tier.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

joker is mid tier, theres no way a character with so much setup potential is low tier.

I think his big hangups are not being able to deal with zoning/gap closing in most matchups (only character that's worse is Lobo) and only having mid-hitting combo starter strings. Makes you too reliant on jump-ins, which alot of characters can deal with regardless of how good in the air Joker is. His setup potential is good (just made a whole thread about it) but alot of it is countered with a simple tech roll if they time it correctly. Then, there's trait... Just alot working against him IMO. Needs a few things to be a solid character, but he's almost there.

 

[Qwark28]

I think his big hangups are not being able to deal with zoning/gap closing in most matchups (only character that's worse is Lobo) and only having mid-hitting combo starter strings. Makes you too reliant on jump-ins, which alot of characters can deal with regardless of how good in the air Joker is. His setup potential is good (just made a whole thread about it) but alot of it is countered with a simple tech roll if they time it correctly. Then, there's trait... Just alot working against him IMO. Needs a few things to be a solid character, but he's almost there.

He already is solid, his teeth are so much more than just free combo launchers like they're considered. they are walls which give you +10 or so when your opp blocks them

when you knock down a zoning char, theres a 2 way mixup with most, wakeup or no wakeup, no wakeup lets you into mixups while still having ended your combo with teeth while most wakeups are punishable

despite the buffs, most characters still cant deal with jokers J3

tech roll pushes them away and unless they go into a good advancing string right after it you can still dash in and setup teeth.

tech roll is not all bad, joker has some guaranteed shit in the corner, right?

 

[StevoSuprem0]

He already is solid, his teeth are so much more than just free combo launchers like they're considered. they are walls which give you +10 or so when your opp blocks them

when you knock down a zoning char, theres a 2 way mixup with most, wakeup or no wakeup, no wakeup lets you into mixups while still having ended your combo with teeth while most wakeups are punishable

despite the buffs, most characters still cant deal with jokers J3

tech roll pushes them away and unless they go into a good advancing string right after it you can still dash in and setup teeth.

tech roll is not all bad, joker has some guaranteed shit in the corner, right?

I'd disagree with the teeth being like walls. Initially opponents treat them as such if they aren't used to the matchup, but once they are, they can just sit back and projectile or find ways to get past them with their character (teleports from scorps/batgirl, hawk girl has a bunch of aerial advances, doomsday can MB air venom, bunch of people can dash in air, etc). If they block, though, you are right- there is a bunch of advantage there; I'm curious if people will just start going for a hit as joker advances, eat the damage, but prevent the advantage once the matchup is more known.
The wakeup stuff is matchup dependent. Some people will opt to tech roll and back up to get away/block high to prevent overheads from catching them and walk out/get hit out of teeth setups. If you dash in and teeth, they will be able to punish, not enough advantage there if they react properly. If they are in the corner, however, they better have a good wakeup, because if not, say hello to being dead haha, you're right there. And yes, j3 is still dirty.
Like I said, most of this is only bad when people really know the matchup (like my god damn friends). Joker is pretty slept on overall, though, so you will be able to pull alot more of in general, or so I hope, against people that aren't to familiar with it.

 

[Qwark28]

I'd disagree with the teeth being like walls. Initially opponents treat them as such if they aren't used to the matchup, but once they are, they can just sit back and projectile or find ways to get past them with their character (teleports from scorps/batgirl, hawk girl has a bunch of aerial advances, doomsday can MB air venom, bunch of people can dash in air, etc). If they block, though, you are right- there is a bunch of advantage there; I'm curious if people will just start going for a hit as joker advances, eat the damage, but prevent the advantage once the matchup is more known.
The wakeup stuff is matchup dependent. Some people will opt to tech roll and back up to get away/block high to prevent overheads from catching them and walk out/get hit out of teeth setups. If you dash in and teeth, they will be able to punish, not enough advantage there if they react properly. If they are in the corner, however, they better have a good wakeup, because if not, say hello to being dead haha, you're right there. And yes, j3 is still dirty.
Like I said, most of this is only bad when people really know the matchup (like my god damn friends). Joker is pretty slept on overall, though, so you will be able to pull alot more of in general, or so I hope, against people that aren't to familiar with it.

you shouldnt count on ppl not knowing the matchup, there is no outplaying involved there.

youre missing the point, look at the moves you just told me, air venom, mb or not is punishable, so are the 2 teleports, i just said in my post that this is the kind of stuff you wanna bait.

this is the exact thing im talking about in my post, im saying that you should never rely on teeth to overhead setups alone when he has so many options to put htem in the exact same mindgame when the obvious tech roll/wakeup comes

also, if you dash and teeth, you will get a combo when they get launched from the teeth, i very frequently use this vs many characters, you can completely stop peoples offense when youre in the corner if you just do teeth and they dont throw out a very advancing string on a good read ( which neutral jumps punish )

overall, joker is a character that you gotta make reads with to win and he puts you in a 50/50 situation with every move, nothing wrong with that when your momentum is so huge the moment you lay down teeth defensively or offensively, i played subzero in MK9 and he was the same with a few differences.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

you shouldnt count on ppl not knowing the matchup, there is no outplaying involved there.

youre missing the point, look at the moves you just told me, air venom, mb or not is punishable, so are the 2 teleports, i just said in my post that this is the kind of stuff you wanna bait.

this is the exact thing im talking about in my post, im saying that you should never rely on teeth to overhead setups alone when he has so many options to put htem in the exact same mindgame when the obvious tech roll/wakeup comes

also, if you dash and teeth, you will get a combo when they get launched from the teeth, i very frequently use this vs many characters, you can completely stop peoples offense when youre in the corner if you just do teeth and they dont throw out a very advancing string on a good read ( which neutral jumps punish )

overall, joker is a character that you gotta make reads with to win and he puts you in a 50/50 situation with every move, nothing wrong with that when your momentum is so huge the moment you lay down teeth defensively or offensively, i played subzero in MK9 and he was the same with a few differences.

If you dash and teeth, they will be hitting you before the teeth hit the ground if they are any good... there just isn't enough time there in my experience, maybe I'm wrong though. In the corner, he's great. Not in the corner, though, he struggles to close gaps and keep pressure on against alot of characters. Teeth are the key, but there are ways for them to get out safely when they figure out how. So, I guess we agree to disagree.