Match-up Discussion Joker Matchup Discussion

[Cat]

Doomsday gets in for free whenever he has meter, which he will build.
His trait is godlike and joker doesn't have a multi hit special to delay him coming in.
A good Doomsday will rarely, if ever, do a non-ex venom and even with the 11 glitch fixed it'll be a justframe ( which, because we're humans, can easily mean a D1 punish for trying to punish it ) and whenever he has meter, he can simply do a late EX venom and you wouldn't even confirm the difference since there's a very tight window to punish.

The corner works against Joker if doomsday gets a trait out, doesn't matter if you got him with a setup, give him just half a sec to pop it out and your corner pressure has ended and his has begun, he can punish most of the strings in the game on hit for heavy damage to more pressure.

Joker can't really zone, has ineffective midscreen setups and the corner is a double edged sword if he's not on point all the time. The way to win this MU is screw setups when he has meter and go for damage while hoping he runs out of meter so you can mediocrely zone or limit his movement.

I play vs Metzos who is a doomsday main every single week. This matchup is hella bad.

Gonna be posting alot in this thread, I play many matchups offline.

Thanks man. That's the details I like to see.
Not just "this match up sucks. 7-3" as it does not help anyone

I agree with a lot. But 7-3 is a strong number in my choice. I usually prefer saying its (character) advantage in the match up.

And as of NOW I do believe its I'm doomsday favor. I've gotten away with some matches vs scars doomsday. But it's mostly due to being on point with reactions.
Punishing regular charge is not a issue to me. I do it consistently. But with the damage I get as of now it does not help for sure.

I disagree with going for set ups. There are times where it can help him get a good life lead. Especially if its after a background bounce or a legit corner one. But get to greedy and you can eat a ton.

The hitbox fixed on j3 has helped. As I noticed yesterday. Because dashing under him when he j3s is now possible.

Being patient I think is key. Baiting out the air stomp to punish as well as being careful to block his shoulders and block pressure after correctly.

I probably get hit with like 1 j3 in a match since I'm used to blocking cross ups. His pressure is really good but can all be blocked standing for the most part and pushes you back to get some air. At a distance doing teeth and just blocking is good. Because if your lucky he will shoulder to get in and it will hit and keep you save

Using the Parry is very useful. There's strings that are interruptible with it.
And if you set teeth and bait a charge you can parry it if your reactions are on point (easier said than done )

Anyways. Keep working on it and keep us posted. I'll start updating this down the line.

Also. Can you either delete your first post and put that info on this post. Or delete this one and update your first post. Want to keep the thread clean and neat. So it won't be hard to find good info

Just updated with a Grundy match video.

 

[Qwark28]

Thanks man. That's the details I like to see.
Not just "this match up sucks. 7-3" as it does not help anyone

I agree with a lot. But 7-3 is a strong number in my choice. I usually prefer saying its (character) advantage in the match up.

And as of NOW I do believe its I'm doomsday favor. I've gotten away with some matches vs scars doomsday. But it's mostly due to being on point with reactions.
Punishing regular charge is not a issue to me. I do it consistently. But with the damage I get as of now it does not help for sure.

I disagree with going for set ups. There are times where it can help him get a good life lead. Especially if its after a background bounce or a legit corner one. But get to greedy and you can eat a ton.

The hitbox fixed on j3 has helped. As I noticed yesterday. Because dashing under him when he j3s is now possible.

Being patient I think is key. Baiting out the air stomp to punish as well as being careful to block his shoulders and block pressure after correctly.

I probably get hit with like 1 j3 in a match since I'm used to blocking cross ups. His pressure is really good but can all be blocked standing for the most part and pushes you back to get some air. At a distance doing teeth and just blocking is good. Because if your lucky he will shoulder to get in and it will hit and keep you save

Using the Parry is very useful. There's strings that are interruptible with it.
And if you set teeth and bait a charge you can parry it if your reactions are on point (easier said than done )

Anyways. Keep working on it and keep us posted. I'll start updating this down the line.

Just updated with a Grundy match video.

His JI3 should always be B3 MBed considering joker builds meter fast after the beating he takes.

my point with the normal venom was that it should never be used naked unless it's an act of desperation, I was mainly saying that if doomsday mixed in a regular punishable venom after about 50 MB ones you wouldn't really notice and you'd be caught off guard. I agree about getting him to venom on teeth if you're lucky, because he will never do a naked venom if you got teeth out.

Meter building is the problem here, he's a monster with meter and since you're blocking all the time, he builds it really fast, the only time I'd call it 6 4 is if doomsday had no meter.

I think parrying on reaction is pretty damn good in many matchups but not this one, if you happen to hit, you get 9% and a small speed boost that is barely noticeable and should be buffed, if you're hit you're not only receiving like 20% but being pushed all the way to hell.

 

[CrazySlasher]

Doomsday must be a legit 7-3
Deathstroke I think is dead even
He struggles vs chars that need to get in and can duck or armour his gunshots
He also struggles vs chars who wanna get in but can outzone him

joker is extremely mediocre midscreen with escapable setups, midscreen you either outplay your opponent or die.

in the corner some setups are almost inescapable which is nice, he still has to sacrifice some damage after a crossup combo to keep them in the corner though.

He needs either

Gunshot being 0 on block but hitting mid.
Faster teeth
9F sweep
Faster cannisters or at least neutral on block
212 last hit to be a real launcher

Any of these will make him competitive.

I disagree totally on Doomsday. I think it's 5-5 or possibly even 6-4 in Jokers favor.

 

[Qwark28]

I disagree totally on Doomsday. I think it's 5-5 or possibly even 6-4 in Jokers favor.

I think Obama is an alien from Pluto.

Explain.

 

[Qwark28]

Thanks man. That's the details I like to see.
Not just "this match up sucks. 7-3" as it does not help anyone

I agree with a lot. But 7-3 is a strong number in my choice. I usually prefer saying its (character) advantage in the match up.

One thing I forgot to add

official (?) interperations of numbers is like this

6-4 = slight advantage
7-3 = serious advantage

And I don't think doomsday has a slight advantage.

 

[Cat]

One thing I forgot to add

official (?) interperations of numbers is like this

6-4 = slight advantage
7-3 = serious advantage

And I don't think doomsday has a slight advantage.

As of now (since further down things might change. New tech, patches, may change things )
I do believe its in doomsday Favor

Also feedback on the match videos I post would be great. Need multiple views on a match up to come up with strategy.

Also STORMS or GamerBlake90 can we get a sticky?

 

[GamerBlake90]

As of now (since further down things might change. New tech, patches, may change things )
I do believe its in doomsday Favor

Also feedback on the match videos I post would be great. Need multiple views on a match up to come up with strategy.

Also STORMS or GamerBlake90 can we get a sticky?

Sticky applied, sir.

 

[wh0dat1234]

How do you guys deal with Ravens that spam Soul Crush?

 

[Qwark28]

How do you guys deal with Ravens that spam Soul Crush?

bang.

i bang her

 

[Qwark28]

Match Videos ***
I'll post match videos in this section with a few notes on what mistakes and good things were done in the matches on the video.

Vs. Grundy

Here's a set against Showtimes Grundy.
There's still a lot I need to incorporate into joker that is effective , into my matches. So expect updates. There's a few things I gave a glimpse at during the match that ill point out. Still new in using it so did not take full advantage.

Notes:
• notice the use of jump back 3 to avoid grabs and get damage when hitting his armor grabs as well as beat jumps and built distance

• there's a bug that prevents joker from doing 11 into low tank combos as well as f23 into low tank. Pako said it will be worked on "someday"
Sometimes I forget and go for it before I realize it and it gets blocked

•At 15:12 push block set up. Still working on this. I'll post more about it soon. There was plenty more opportunities for it. If done right you can full combo off it.

•10:21 new 1 meter bnb combo

•16:04 reset with the background. Always make sure to take notice on positioning in the stage to take advantage of these

•17:38 great way to beat out wake up attacks. Especially those with armor. Still working on getting the full combo after as we'll as some dirty resets with 213 in the corner.

Again. Both me and Showtime still getting familiar with the game and our characters. So expect things to change over time. I'll keep this thread updated with new match videos and things to use in the future.

Ill post more notes when I get home from work and can analyze the video more.

Watched till 15 mins, here's my opinion.

Showtime looked VERY unfamiliar and uncomfortable in this matchup, he could've used WCC and dashes multiple times and blown through the classic teeth to gunshot setup but didn't. He played as if he was afraid of joker's setups when there was no need to and sometimes got an opening straight to a combo but messed it up and you got away e.g when he caught you with MB swamp hands and instead of dashing up for his free chain throw which would've cornered you simply swamp handed again or when the same situation arose, just with teeth between you, and instead of jumping over them to at least get close to you and corner you he stayed away. Another common scenario was when he would make a gunshot read in the corner and would WCC from midscreen but wouldn't cancel it to another WC to get within throw range, something you notice at 5:47 or so.

I feel that your game is pretty risky when you don't have the lifelead with jumps and the gimmicky offense grundy has, my approach would be more with sweeps and slowly closing in using teeth as an ice clone and F21/2 setups. You should never jump at grundy, best case scenario is an air throw that switches sides into untechable knockdown and free pressure, if he uppercuts you it's GGs.

I've tried the setup you mentioned for WCC many times vs Asodimazze online and Metzos offline with the JI3, if grundy is close enough already you're screwed, you have to jump back as soon as he comes at you otherwise he not only catches if you do it too soon but gets 60% or so if he cancels his WCC to uppercut or a string, maybe 80% with that new B1 tech in the grundy forums.

This matchup is slightly better for grundy because Joker has a hard time properly zoning him which you'll see once Showtime starts dashing the teeth on reaction when he's far and using WCC more because while joker can turtle grundy if hes careful, grundy can do the same thing with a life lead while still forcing you to respect his MB swamp hands which if you don't, you die.

I'll try to get some games with Metzos's doomsday and grundy, I usually lose to his doomsday and maybe go even with his grundy.

 

[Suiname]

thanks for a proper matchup thread. Love the joker discussions going on here.

 

[Cat]

Watched till 15 mins, here's my opinion.

Showtime looked VERY unfamiliar and uncomfortable in this matchup, he could've used WCC and dashes multiple times and blown through the classic teeth to gunshot setup but didn't. He played as if he was afraid of joker's setups when there was no need to and sometimes got an opening straight to a combo but messed it up and you got away e.g when he caught you with MB swamp hands and instead of dashing up for his free chain throw which would've cornered you simply swamp handed again or when the same situation arose, just with teeth between you, and instead of jumping over them to at least get close to you and corner you he stayed away. Another common scenario was when he would make a gunshot read in the corner and would WCC from midscreen but wouldn't cancel it to another WC to get within throw range, something you notice at 5:47 or so.

I feel that your game is pretty risky when you don't have the lifelead with jumps and the gimmicky offense grundy has, my approach would be more with sweeps and slowly closing in using teeth as an ice clone and F21/2 setups. You should never jump at grundy, best case scenario is an air throw that switches sides into untechable knockdown and free pressure, if he uppercuts you it's GGs.

I've tried the setup you mentioned for WCC many times vs Asodimazze online and Metzos offline with the JI3, if grundy is close enough already you're screwed, you have to jump back as soon as he comes at you otherwise he not only catches if you do it too soon but gets 60% or so if he cancels his WCC to uppercut or a string, maybe 80% with that new B1 tech in the grundy forums.

This matchup is slightly better for grundy because Joker has a hard time properly zoning him which you'll see once Showtime starts dashing the teeth on reaction when he's far and using WCC more because while joker can turtle grundy if hes careful, grundy can do the same thing with a life lead while still forcing you to respect his MB swamp hands which if you don't, you die.

I'll try to get some games with Metzos's doomsday and grundy, I usually lose to his doomsday and maybe go even with his grundy.

well the thing about the walking corpse. is that i can low parry and make it whiff and full combo punish it.. he knew i knew about it so he canceled a lot of them instead.. we played more matches after off stream, and he went for them and i would low parry, punish . d2 is a great AA by grundy problem is, if i do my jumps (which i try to for the most part) where the j3 hits max distance, it tends to beat it out. Whenever a grundy starts doing those a lot, i start doing neatral jumps to bait them and either land and punish with a sweep, or just j3 with the neutral jump to beat it out. I really think its slightly in jokers favor, or even, as he can zone him out pretty good since teeth save him from most of his stuff because his grabs dont tend to move him that much.
its a match i feel comftable playing, and once the bug is fixed with big chars, it will become slightly easier.
keeping grundy away while trying to bait walking corpse is what i think is key in the match. Letting him get to close can yield big damage for him thats for sure.
do you play metzos offline?? just curious

Also , what do you think about parry in this match up?
i believe since a lot of his stuff are grabs, its not easy to get them, unless they whiff strings that are easy to react too.

 

[Cat]

thanks for a proper matchup thread. Love the joker discussions going on here.

get it on it!! anything helps us develop joker.

 

[Gilbagz]

Posted this in the other match up thread

Some other green lantern specific stuff
- Punish lift with gunshot from further ranges. From sweep range, the best punish is a ji2 into combo. You do not have enough time to dash up and combo. The timing is fairly lenient. Other punish options include flower, sweep, crowbar and gun. But from sweep range take the ji2 into combo.
- Try to space yourself at the tip of Green Lantern's b+1 range. While the string is ridiculously good, its horrible on whiff. You can easily whiff punish using f+2,3, or if your on point, 3 into combo (standing 3 into rlg at max range does not combo however.) You can just block and parry the string but the timing is super strict, and GL can mix this up with b+1,2 to mess up your parry timing (if you do go for the parry, hold back while doing it so if you time it early you still block). At this range, I believe you can also punish lift with the ji2 combo.
- Sweep is punishable by lift so you cannot throw it so much.
- On wake up you need to respect lantern cuz that 10 frame lift beats out like everything I swear. If the invincibility frames only last for 8 frames you could possibly beat it out, but thats a 2 frame window to interrupt. Need to find some indicator to help time the attack.
- From fullscreen you can punish his air rockets from full screen using gun cuz of the angle on the rocket making the rocket whiff.

As joker it looks like you just wanna hold that distance. Idk maybe you can use teeth to slowly push the lantern to the corner. While he can punish with lift, the teeth will catch him and push him further back to the corner.

Don't have enough experience to judge numbers yet.

 

[Cat]

@Pig Of The Hut
@Jack White
@Qwark28
@Impractical Joker
@charmangler
@AceOfKnaves

get in your info!

 

[Cat]

Posted this in the other match up thread

Some other green lantern specific stuff
- Punish lift with gunshot from further ranges. From sweep range, the best punish is a ji2 into combo. You do not have enough time to dash up and combo. The timing is fairly lenient. Other punish options include flower, sweep, crowbar and gun. But from sweep range take the ji2 into combo.
- Try to space yourself at the tip of Green Lantern's b+1 range. While the string is ridiculously good, its horrible on whiff. You can easily whiff punish using f+2,3, or if your on point, 3 into combo (standing 3 into rlg at max range does not combo however.) You can just block and parry the string but the timing is super strict, and GL can mix this up with b+1,2 to mess up your parry timing (if you do go for the parry, hold back while doing it so if you time it early you still block). At this range, I believe you can also punish lift with the ji2 combo.
- Sweep is punishable by lift so you cannot throw it so much.
- On wake up you need to respect lantern cuz that 10 frame lift beats out like everything I swear. If the invincibility frames only last for 8 frames you could possibly beat it out, but thats a 2 frame window to interrupt. Need to find some indicator to help time the attack.
- From fullscreen you can punish his air rockets from full screen using gun cuz of the angle on the rocket making the rocket whiff.

As joker it looks like you just wanna hold that distance. Idk maybe you can use teeth to slowly push the lantern to the corner. While he can punish with lift, the teeth will catch him and push him further back to the corner.

Don't have enough experience to judge numbers yet.

good stuff man.. match up numbers are not needed...

his wake up lift is great and makes you respect him more than others..
on my video guide i have a set up with a sweep ender that makes his wake up life whiff everytime and you get a full punish for it.. ill post it later..

 

[Metzos]

Qwark28, Cat, dont know about 7 - 3 in DD's favor, but its definately 6 - 4 DD, at least in this current phase of the game. I ll meet with Qwark this Saturday and we ll play some matches with my DD for you guys to analyze. 5 - 5 or in Joker's favor though is out of the question. Once DD gets in, and he will, he ll stay in and he ll give Joker hell. And i ll dont even say what DD will do to Joker once he corners him. And yes Cat, he plays with me offline.

 

[Owerbart]

I think Joker - Raven is slightly in Raven's favor. Maybe I feel it this way because it looks like Joker needs to get in and he will struggle. Of course Joker can do his gun cancels but in practice he's gonna get soul crushed a lot. Upclose Raven has legit mix-ups but Joker seems to have too. Demon Stance is huge in this kind of MUs IMO.

Grundy doesn't need the Health Chain other to inflict more damage. Most of the time against joker I felt the right choice was to go for Power. Let's not forget about the b+1 Grundy reset so more outdamaging for Grundy. On the other hand those teeth may do the work to stop him from coming.

 

[Cat]

Qwark28, Cat, dont know about 7 - 3 in DD's favor, but its definately 6 - 4 DD, at least in this current phase of the game. I ll meet with Qwark this Saturday and we ll play some matches with my DD for you guys to analyze. 5 - 5 or in Joker's favor though is out of the question. Once DD gets in, and he will, he ll stay in and he ll give Joker hell. And i ll dont even say what DD will do to Joker once he corners him. And yes Cat, he plays with me offline.

awesome man thanks.. i was wondering if you guys played offline, that way yall can maybe record some sets so we can all make a better analysis

 

[Qwark28]

well the thing about the walking corpse. is that i can low parry and make it whiff and full combo punish it.. he knew i knew about it so he canceled a lot of them instead.. we played more matches after off stream, and he went for them and i would low parry, punish . d2 is a great AA by grundy problem is, if i do my jumps (which i try to for the most part) where the j3 hits max distance, it tends to beat it out. Whenever a grundy starts doing those a lot, i start doing neatral jumps to bait them and either land and punish with a sweep, or just j3 with the neutral jump to beat it out. I really think its slightly in jokers favor, or even, as he can zone him out pretty good since teeth save him from most of his stuff because his grabs dont tend to move him that much.
its a match i feel comftable playing, and once the bug is fixed with big chars, it will become slightly easier.
keeping grundy away while trying to bait walking corpse is what i think is key in the match. Letting him get to close can yield big damage for him thats for sure.
do you play metzos offline?? just curious

Also , what do you think about parry in this match up?
i believe since a lot of his stuff are grabs, its not easy to get them, unless they whiff strings that are easy to react too.

Yeah, J3 at max distance is what I'm talking about, baiting the D2 is very risky because if you can only sweep it, one fuckup is enough for grundy to get a huge lifelead.

 

[Qwark28]

well the thing about the walking corpse. is that i can low parry and make it whiff and full combo punish it.. he knew i knew about it so he canceled a lot of them instead.. we played more matches after off stream, and he went for them and i would low parry, punish . d2 is a great AA by grundy problem is, if i do my jumps (which i try to for the most part) where the j3 hits max distance, it tends to beat it out. Whenever a grundy starts doing those a lot, i start doing neatral jumps to bait them and either land and punish with a sweep, or just j3 with the neutral jump to beat it out. I really think its slightly in jokers favor, or even, as he can zone him out pretty good since teeth save him from most of his stuff because his grabs dont tend to move him that much.
its a match i feel comftable playing, and once the bug is fixed with big chars, it will become slightly easier.
keeping grundy away while trying to bait walking corpse is what i think is key in the match. Letting him get to close can yield big damage for him thats for sure.
do you play metzos offline?? just curious

Also , what do you think about parry in this match up?
i believe since a lot of his stuff are grabs, its not easy to get them, unless they whiff strings that are easy to react too.

If he knows youll low a low parry then nothing stops him from repeating WCC or uppercuting/doing a string to punish your follow up.

 

[laudanum09]

Against Deathstroke: 2,1,3 followed by an immediate dash up, slight pause, and then ji2 will stuff his spinning sword wakeup. After b1, 3 immediate dash and immediate ji.2 will stuff it.

Unfortunately flip sword beats this timing since it seems only meaty attacks stuff sword flip on wakeup (doesnt seem to have any startup invincibility). You'll have to make the read.... at least until sword spin becomes more universally used as a wakeup (stuffs meaties and safe on block at least against Joker)

 

[Suiname]

Unfortunately flip sword beats this timing since it seems only meaty attacks stuff sword flip on wakeup (doesnt seem to have any startup invincibility).

Don't all wakeup moves have 8 frames of invuln? I thought that's what makes it a wakeup attack.

 

[laudanum09]

Don't all wakeup moves have 8 frames of invuln? I thought that's what makes it a wakeup attack.

There are wakeup attacks with none (projectile attacks) wakeup attacks with only invulnerable startup frames, and attacks with invulnerable frames up until the first or second active frame.

Sword Flip has startup invuln so meaties still stuff it but if you time your meaty wrong you get hit (your last frame of startup overlaps with DS on his first frame of active)
Sword Spin has full invulnerability so it doesn't matter how meaty or not you hit, unless you time it AFTER the invuln frames are over and with hitbox considerations. Hence the slight delay before jump in after 2,1,3 and since b1,3 spaces you such, a jump in immediately after a backdash will be proper timing.

This is all pretty easy to set up and test so try it out and let me know if I'm doing something wrong.

 

[Suiname]

ah ok, thanks for explaining that