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Match-up Discussion Joker Matchup Discussion

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
im doing it after blocking full screen. i got flash set to reversal lc and always block. hit him with gunshot at the right range block the lc then forward jump 2 then 2,3.
had no idea, mustve not been doing it fast enough

do you have a monitor or a tv?
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
im doing it after blocking full screen. i got flash set to reversal lc and always block. hit him with gunshot at the right range block the lc then forward jump 2 then 2,3.
Nice. If that works, that'd be pretty clutch. I think you're quickly going to see flashes only use rising uppercut as a punish/ situational wakeup and LC as it's MB form to safely close gaps and establish pressure once people start to catch on to this stuff though.
 

Zino

Noob
i got no way to record this right now. and stevo mb lc is not safe if we block low. full punish 3,2 into rlg
 

Crathen

Death is my business
So Qwark28 mind explaining how you approach the DS matchup , it's interesting you think it's 5-5 , personally i think it's 6-4 ( slightly advantage , if i wanted to be more "precise" i'd put it 5.5-4.5 but let's scratch that ) , the projectile game is in DS favour , LGS goes under Jokers gun so he can't really sit on a small lifelead too much and trade with it or force DS to get in ( assuming it's a small lifelead ofc ).

Quickfire trades are generally in jokers favour ( 6% vs 8% ) , but what i use quickfire in this mu is more about interrupting defensive teeths or slower cannisters ( wich he rarely uses anyways ) and to AA jump attempts wich works pretty well because Jokers low jump arc.

Upclose it's definately a good spot for joker , d2 range is huge enough to keep DS in check from jumping in , jokers air normals are faster , don't have height restrictions and have more active frames so he's winning more trades than DS , j2 / j3 are very hard to AA and when it does get AA it's mostly on a read , sword flip / d2 are not good enough to keep him out of the air.

Once you get a jump in it's frametrap city , DS backdash doesn't travel much far back/ mediocre recovery and it's very likely to get blown up by another j2 / j3 , Joker strings ( ala 323 ) leave him at advantage setting up d1s to check DS from hitting buttons ( tho 323 d1 can be whiff punished by walking back ) or get another jump in goin' , throws , lows and crowbar do a good job to get some decent damage into some setups.

In the corner it's definately not easy for DS as he has no easy mobility tool to get out and his wakeup Spin gets blown up by teeth setups , so i have to gamble on a Flip wich could get baited / pushblocked.

It's one of those matches that DS get to play his zoning game pretty well and can make Joker hesitate with guns to open him up with 50/50 , MB F3 works nicely vs jumpins and when Joker gets knocked down he has to block DS crossjump/non crossup setups into 50/50s.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
I just found a reset for hawk girl. if you end any combo with 3,2,3 far teeth then do 2 or b1 into flower. if she does a wake up mace charge the normal will hit her invincibility frames and flower will stuff the wake up. the teeth are blockable after flower hits but if they dont block you get a b3.
Nice. I found that gun whiffs on her mace charge as well (annoying, but par for the course I suppose), but I noticed that you can actually time a flower pretty easily to stuff her charge attempt in the neutral game as well. Looks pretty funny too :D. Once she starts flying around, just have to space her out, and bait her into moving close enough for a ji3 to catch her during the startup of a mace toss. I'm starting to feel more comfortable in that matchup.
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
Ugh, I haaaaaaaaaaaaaaate the HG matchup. Sadly because a buddy and I keep playing our own hard counters, I tend to encounter it at least 1 match per set with him then just end up going Lex. I'ma try that anti-Mace Charge wakeup tech though.


Also from my experience Batman is 5-5 or 6-4... unless he zones you correctly, at which point before the patch that shit was unwinnable IMO. Luckily for me, Batman's around here like to rush down.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
So Qwark28 mind explaining how you approach the DS matchup , it's interesting you think it's 5-5 , personally i think it's 6-4 ( slightly advantage , if i wanted to be more "precise" i'd put it 5.5-4.5 but let's scratch that ) , the projectile game is in DS favour , LGS goes under Jokers gun so he can't really sit on a small lifelead too much and trade with it or force DS to get in ( assuming it's a small lifelead ofc ).

Quickfire trades are generally in jokers favour ( 6% vs 8% ) , but what i use quickfire in this mu is more about interrupting defensive teeths or slower cannisters ( wich he rarely uses anyways ) and to AA jump attempts wich works pretty well because Jokers low jump arc.

Upclose it's definately a good spot for joker , d2 range is huge enough to keep DS in check from jumping in , jokers air normals are faster , don't have height restrictions and have more active frames so he's winning more trades than DS , j2 / j3 are very hard to AA and when it does get AA it's mostly on a read , sword flip / d2 are not good enough to keep him out of the air.

Once you get a jump in it's frametrap city , DS backdash doesn't travel much far back/ mediocre recovery and it's very likely to get blown up by another j2 / j3 , Joker strings ( ala 323 ) leave him at advantage setting up d1s to check DS from hitting buttons ( tho 323 d1 can be whiff punished by walking back ) or get another jump in goin' , throws , lows and crowbar do a good job to get some decent damage into some setups.

In the corner it's definately not easy for DS as he has no easy mobility tool to get out and his wakeup Spin gets blown up by teeth setups , so i have to gamble on a Flip wich could get baited / pushblocked.

It's one of those matches that DS get to play his zoning game pretty well and can make Joker hesitate with guns to open him up with 50/50 , MB F3 works nicely vs jumpins and when Joker gets knocked down he has to block DS crossjump/non crossup setups into 50/50s.
Jokers J3 is extremely dominant in this matchup. I believe J3 into J2 from up close is not interruptible or can be air to aired

we have an answer to all frametraps with parry

deathstrokes zoning offline is no problem, walk in and react with down to any gunshots which then give you a free dash

gunshot is rarely used in this MU

only problem is death strokes ambiguous crossups that you cant wake up out of, i hate giving deathstroke the chance to switch sides and re-chase him.

only thing i dont like is jokers hitboxes and frame data on most of his moves, his frametraps are fucking useless if your opp knows how to press BB

not to mention jokers insane wallcarry and great damage as well as corner mixups. every time joker knocks you down in the corner with teeth you either wake up or get hit by b13

and he can mb f3 sword flip when done correctly offline so you cannot truly wakeup even with multi hitting attacks.

i hate crowbar in this matchup because i dont like whiffing shit vs death stroke
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Qwark28,

What's Jokers options against a strong zoner like Sinestro?
Bend over. For real. Sinestro is ridiculously good vs Joker.

Stop trait charges with gunshot, unfortunately it's only 8% but it's something.

After Sinestro does B12 he will do 2 things, block or backdash, most will backdash. If they don't do anything throw them or pressure them, if they backdash do a forward jump into J3 D2 MB RLB B3 J2 D3 it costs 1 bar and is 12% more than the normal j3 b1 flower you'd get but vs sinestro youd rather be meterless in the corner rather than not maximise your damage everytime

lots of patience and poking with sweep and crowbar

dont jump deep right onto him, he has a great AA uppercut

pick a stage with a background interaction so you can hit him with the unblockable for 60% meterless, fortress of solitude has 3 such interactions in the lab area.

dash meteors on reactions and walk forward at all times, duck fear blasts on reaction from full and 3/4 screen, duck in anticipation any closer.

Up close fear blasts are a high so uppercut into combo the whiff or sweep him.

will write more later
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
ATM finding setups against KF. Will update soon on findings because im getting some juicy results.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Bend over. For real. Sinestro is ridiculously good vs Joker.

Stop trait charges with gunshot, unfortunately it's only 8% but it's something.

After Sinestro does B12 he will do 2 things, block or backdash, most will backdash. If they don't do anything throw them or pressure them, if they backdash do a forward jump into J3 D2 MB RLB B3 J2 D3 it costs 1 bar and is 12% more than the normal j3 b1 flower you'd get but vs sinestro youd rather be meterless in the corner rather than not maximise your damage everytime

lots of patience and poking with sweep and crowbar

dont jump deep right onto him, he has a great AA uppercut

pick a stage with a background interaction so you can hit him with the unblockable for 60% meterless, fortress of solitude has 3 such interactions in the lab area.

dash meteors on reactions and walk forward at all times, duck fear blasts on reaction from full and 3/4 screen, duck in anticipation any closer.

Up close fear blasts are a high so uppercut into combo the whiff or sweep him.

will write more later
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Joker counterzones him kinda decently. Gunshot vs Fear Blast is in your favor (8% vs 6%) and I think they are around the same speed when you consider travel time. Otherwise, I more or less agree with your suggestions. He's one of those characters that is relatively screwed once we get him in the corner.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Joker counterzones him kinda decently. Gunshot vs Fear Blast is in your favor (8% vs 6%) and I think they are around the same speed when you consider travel time. Otherwise, I more or less agree with your suggestions. He's one of those characters that is relatively screwed once we get him in the corner.
except we have to get in and his projectile is not duckable, joker does not outzone sinestro unless you got a great lifelead, not to mention trait.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
except we have to get in and his projectile is not duckable, joker does not outzone sinestro unless you got a great lifelead, not to mention trait.
Yeah, with lifelead you can sit back a bit. But if you trade, I'm fairly certain you can get a dash in before the next fear blast can catch you (depending on the range). Just tested it in training and seems like it's working. Not sure I got everything recorded to the frame, but it looks like it works. And if he blocks a gunshot, we're at +4, so that's 1-2 dashes. Idk, I probably haven't fought an amazing Sinestro yet, but I haven't struggled with the MU. I had it pegged at 4-6.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Yeah, with lifelead you can sit back a bit. But if you trade, I'm fairly certain you can get a dash in before the next fear blast can catch you (depending on the range). Just tested it in training and seems like it's working. Not sure I got everything recorded to the frame, but it looks like it works. And if he blocks a gunshot, we're at +4, so that's 1-2 dashes. Idk, I probably haven't fought an amazing Sinestro yet, but I haven't struggled with the MU. I had it pegged at 4-6.
gunshot is not a free dash in this MU
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
gunshot is not a free dash in this MU
Need to test more. I think it is at farther ranges, especially if you use the gun on reaction to a fear blast because it increase the advantage window after you take the hit if it's delayed.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Need to test more. I think it is at farther ranges, especially if you use the gun on reaction to a fear blast because it increase the advantage window after you take the hit if it's delayed.
you cannot gunshot on reaction to an 8f projectile with 4-5f travel time
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
you cannot gunshot on reaction to an 8f projectile with 4-5f travel time
9 frame. And fine, true, but full screen, you know it's coming, so you can just delay your counterzoning slightly. I'm more emphasizing the advantage created by that delay for a dash than any sort of reactionary business. Pretty sure it works to help close the gap.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
9 frame. And fine, true, but full screen, you know it's coming, so you can just delay your counterzoning slightly. I'm more emphasizing the advantage created by that delay for a dash than any sort of reactionary business. Pretty sure it works to help close the gap.
trade is a dash yeah
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
4f block advantage, 9 frame fear blast startup, plus several frames of travel time. Definitely more advantage than trade. 'splain.
jokers dash is slower than black adams

we recently learned black adams dash is 18f

so if jokers is 20 approx then

20 - 4 = 16

fear blast 9f + 5 top travel time = hit.