General/Other Joker Community Trait Buff Suggestions To NRS

[laudanum09]

thats what im saying. its crazy not to want that

I see, I misread. I think it's because myself and others think that having a MBable parry is good and all but not really viable with a shitty parry. You'll get that MBable combo as often as you get parry now, which is like almost never. As for parry forcing opponents to use other strings or frame traps; it would function even better that way if it had more active frames and less of a risk with better recovery. I'll take my usable parry +10% and HAs over MBable combos. Still not worth the risk.

 

[Qwark28]

I see, I misread. I think it's because myself and others think that having a MBable parry is good and all but not really viable with a shitty parry. You'll get that MBable combo as often as you get parry now, which is like almost never. As for parry forcing opponents to use other strings or frame traps; it would function even better that way if it had more active frames and less of a risk with better recovery. I'll take my usable parry +10% and HAs over MBable combos. Still not worth the risk.

except you actually have an incentive to use it when you don't feel uncomfortable risking positioning advantage, being put in the corner or getting full combo punished for trying to parry within a tight window.

 

[laudanum09]

except you actually have an incentive to use it when you don't feel uncomfortable risking positioning advantage, being put in the corner or getting full combo punished for trying to parry within a tight window.

Incentive is to get them off you and get a speed boost. I don't want to take that kind of risk for a bnb combo, but hey that's why we're having a vote.

I'd be happy with any option really as there are pluses and minuses for all.

 

[Qwark28]

Incentive is to get them off you and get a speed boost. I don't want to take that kind of risk for a bnb combo, but hey that's why we're having a vote.

I'd be happy with any option really as there are pluses and minuses for all.

lol, so you'd rather have a speed boost but don't wanna take the same risk to get a 40% combo...?

 

[laudanum09]

lol, so you'd rather have a speed boost but don't wanna take the same risk to get a 40% combo...?

ummm how is it the same risk if you have a parry with more active frames and less recovery? That's the point of option 1, less risk than all of the other options. So you'd rather have the worst parry in the game all for sake of a BNB you can get other ways?

 

[Qwark28]

ummm how is it the same risk if you have a parry with more active frames and less recovery? That's the point of option 1, less risk than all of the other options. So you'd rather have the worst parry in the game all for sake of a BNB you can get other ways?

As if the recovery will matter when you're parrying through important shit like doomsdays ex venom or lanterns strings...

people shouldnt trade easier timing in a parry that already can very reliable interrupt shit for something that joker really needs

 

[laudanum09]

As if the recovery will matter when you're parrying through important shit like doomsdays ex venom or lanterns strings...

people shouldnt trade easier timing in a parry that already can very reliable interrupt shit for something that joker really needs

lol reliable? You have to GUESS to interrupt lanterns b1, 2 or b1 3 because parry requires a different timing for each. You're off by a frame and you eat a combo. I guess a 50/50 that YOU have to take to get 30%ish damage is reliable for you. And doomsday and bane are TWO matchups out of 22 more. Parry could have 5 frames of startup and you could reliably counter venom and bane's charge. bane and DD don't matter or count at all when talking about the benefits of parry as is, that's already an obvious given. GL is another story, that MU proves how difficult and unreliable parry is in its current form so it's nice that you bring that up.

And I dunno if Joker 'needs' MBable parry for what would definitely be scaled damage and not 40% as you say, as if the character should change because a defensive/punish oriented playstyle is the only way he can get the damage he needs. There are other characters that might work better for you if bait and punish is what you're looking for. if you want Joker to have more mixup potential there are other ways to do that without keeping an unreliable and highly punishable parry. I'd rather make a guess on whether they'll do a wakeup move to stuff my meaty jump in or string and get my 40% that way.

 

[Qwark28]

lol reliable? You have to GUESS to interrupt lanterns b1, 2 or b1 3 because parry requires a different timing for each. You're off by a frame and you eat a combo. I guess a 50/50 that YOU have to take to get 30%ish damage is reliable for you. And doomsday and bane are TWO matchups out of 22 more. Parry could have 5 frames of startup and you could reliably counter venom and bane's charge. bane and DD don't matter or count at all when talking about the benefits of parry as is, that's already an obvious given. GL is another story, that MU proves how difficult and unreliable parry is in its current form so it's nice that you bring that up.

And I dunno if Joker 'needs' MBable parry for what would definitely be scaled damage and not 40% as you say, as if the character should change because a defensive/punish oriented playstyle is the only way he can get the damage he needs. There are other characters that might work better for you if bait and punish is what you're looking for. if you want Joker to have more mixup potential there are other ways to do that without keeping an unreliable and highly punishable parry. I'd rather make a guess on whether they'll do a wakeup move to stuff my meaty jump in or string and get my 40% that way.

gl doesnt get much from 3 in b13 compared to what you'd get and when you have super hes never going to do b13

chars who have holes in their strings and have some options limited from the parry http://testyourmight.com/threads/joker-parry-guide.30841/

now imagine punishing them for 30% for a bar or 40%+ for 2.

and that guide doesn't even include the situations out of which joker can parry when being frametrapped by those characters.

 

[laudanum09]

gl doesnt get much from 3 in b13 compared to what you'd get and when you have super hes never going to do b13

chars who have holes in their strings and have some options limited from the parry http://testyourmight.com/threads/joker-parry-guide.30841/

now imagine punishing them for 30% for a bar or 40%+ for 2.

and that guide doesn't even include the situations out of which joker can parry when being frametrapped by those characters.

No, GL would get as much as what we'd get for a scaled MB parry combo. It's not a balanced risk/reward because you have to guess three ways. That's just a horrible situation to put yourself in for bnb damage. That's worse than the risk you'd take for blindly jumping in on Aquaman or trying a meaty against a character with solid wakeup > damage options. At least you get pressure if they block, there's no good result for you if you mess up your parry against someone.

MBable garbage parry is not better objectively than having a better parry overall. They each have their benefits and minuses and one option has balanced risk/reward and the other is totally skewed with huge risk for moderate reward. I have a preference but there are good things about both options and neither one is as much of the obvious choice as you seem to think it is.

I commend you however for having the guts to stick with the minority of people that think parry is actually reliable. Also, just play KF, you don't have to give up trait to get what you want and you get a good parry out of the deal.

 

[Qwark28]

No, GL would get as much as what we'd get for a scaled MB parry combo. It's not a balanced risk/reward because you have to guess three ways. That's just a horrible situation to put yourself in for bnb damage. That's worse than the risk you'd take for blindly jumping in on Aquaman or trying a meaty against a character with solid wakeup > damage options. At least you get pressure if they block, there's no good result for you if you mess up your parry against someone.

MBable garbage parry is not better objectively than having a better parry overall. They each have their benefits and minuses and one option has balanced risk/reward and the other is totally skewed with huge risk for moderate reward. I have a preference but there are good things about both options and neither one is as much of the obvious choice as you seem to think it is.

I commend you however for having the guts to stick with the minority of people that think parry is actually reliable. Also, just play KF, you don't have to give up trait to get what you want and you get a good parry out of the deal.

You're telling me the overhead part of GLs B13 string would do 30-40% of damage incase you failed the parry which MIGHT be scaled or not? What balanced risk/reward are you talking about? You'd still have just a parry with option A. A parry only slightly better than kf/batmans that would actually have the nerve to be considered a trait.

I don't even like joker's playstyle, the character is not viable and too setup based for me. I'm saying what would make him good.

 

[SunLord5]

No, GL would get as much as what we'd get for a scaled MB parry combo. It's not a balanced risk/reward because you have to guess three ways. That's just a horrible situation to put yourself in for bnb damage. That's worse than the risk you'd take for blindly jumping in on Aquaman or trying a meaty against a character with solid wakeup > damage options. At least you get pressure if they block, there's no good result for you if you mess up your parry against someone.

MBable garbage parry is not better objectively than having a better parry overall. They each have their benefits and minuses and one option has balanced risk/reward and the other is totally skewed with huge risk for moderate reward. I have a preference but there are good things about both options and neither one is as much of the obvious choice as you seem to think it is.

I commend you however for having the guts to stick with the minority of people that think parry is actually reliable. Also, just play KF, you don't have to give up trait to get what you want and you get a good parry out of the deal.

You're telling me the overhead part of GLs B13 string would do 30-40% of damage incase you failed the parry which MIGHT be scaled or not? What balanced risk/reward are you talking about? You'd still have just a parry with option A. A parry only slightly better than kf/batmans that would actually have the nerve to be considered a trait.

I don't even like joker's playstyle, the character is not viable and too setup based for me. I'm saying what would make him good.

No he's saying that GL will use B13 for that 30-40% and more likely than not Joker will fail the parry. It's a very small window to parry that string and if he has frame advantage it's not happening. He isn't going to make it obvious when he is using that string. Based on if he jumps in or does it on the ground also dramatically changes the timing.

I think parry needs 2 options from that list 1 & 4, 1 & 5, or 1 & 6. It could also work on jump-ins because everyone is so happy to do those all of the time.

Furthermore GLs way of punishing whiffs/jump-ins is maybe the best there is, Mb Lanterns Might is very strong.

 

[Dracain]

Another option for 2 is that instead of holding on to HAs and gaining them just by attacking (like CWs trait), there is instead a HA meter, that you fill by attacking, and you can activate at any time. The more you fill the meter, the longer it lasts. Either way, 2 gets my vote.

 

[Necrophia]

Another option for 2 is that instead of holding on to HAs and gaining them just by attacking (like CWs trait), there is instead a HA meter, that you fill by attacking, and you can activate at any time. The more you fill the meter, the longer it lasts. Either way, 2 gets my vote.

We already discussed that on the Patch thread and, if NRS agrees to do so, will require completely recreate and playtest Joker, as his trait now works completely different than what they had on mind. Like since the HAs becomes easier to obtain, Joker might turn slower, deal less damage, and/or a nerf from the HAs themselves. This also means that we will have to stick with the trait we have now until a patch comes several months later with the "new" trait.

Is highly recommended to stick with the connect parry get HA system. Otherwise we go with what-ifs traits instead of deal with the problem itself.

 

[Jack White]

I don't even like joker's playstyle, the character is not viable and too setup based for me. I'm saying what would make him good.

Don't you feel that actual Joker mains would be a little more qualified for that sort of thing? I really wouldn't want NRS taking buffing advice from a guy who doesn't even play the character ATM. And we aren't asking for a ton of OP things. You know like a meterless combo breaker, or something that gives free unblockable damage. Because that would be stupid right? We just want something where the Risk/Reward isn't way too off like your idea is.

 

[laudanum09]

Pulling teeth. A whole page of it.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

You're telling me the overhead part of GLs B13 string would do 30-40% of damage incase you failed the parry which MIGHT be scaled or not? What balanced risk/reward are you talking about? You'd still have just a parry with option A. A parry only slightly better than kf/batmans that would actually have the nerve to be considered a trait.

I don't even like joker's playstyle, the character is not viable and too setup based for me. I'm saying what would make him good.

Joker is very close to viable. He has great mix-ups and alot of good setup games with teeth and such. He is lacking hard in the trait right now, which is the whole purpose of this forum, as well as with wake-ups to some extent, but otherwise, barring a few frame issues and general fixes, he is in a pretty good state. If there was any reason at all to hit 4 right now, he would become exponentially more viable. I think reworking how the HA buff works a bit and improving the parry as has been suggested will make him a beast. It doesn't need to start a 40% combo if the boost is done right. Have you used a Joker with 3 stacks of HAs? It's pretty insane how fast you can rush something down and mix it up to hell and back. Just need to make sure he recovers fast from going down and such in lieu of the nature of the buff so that it can be used well and poses a real threat.

 

[Comrade_Aleksey]

I vote for 1; 4; 6!

 

[ForsakenM]

It would be better to have the frame buffs along with having his HAs last until he gets hit.

Depending on how good the frame buffs are, you could make it so all HAs are consumed on hit, but if it makes it just barely useable it should only take one off whether or not that hit is followed up.

 

[Qwark28]

Don't you feel that actual Joker mains would be a little more qualified for that sort of thing? I really wouldn't want NRS taking buffing advice from a guy who doesn't even play the character ATM. And we aren't asking for a ton of OP things. You know like a meterless combo breaker, or something that gives free unblockable damage. Because that would be stupid right? We just want something where the Risk/Reward isn't way too off like your idea is.

Actual joker mains? I had my hands on joker half a month before the game was even released and I still use joker. How did that even come from...? I know what I'm talking about, that guy has been playing fighting games since he was a little kid and have played some of the best fighting games at the time.

 

[laudanum09]

Actual joker mains? I had my hands on joker half a month before the game was even released and I still use joker. How did that even come from...? I know what I'm talking about, that guy has been playing fighting games since he was a little kid and have played some of the best fighting games at the time.

Why are you playing a character you don't like and doesn't suit your playstyle? Obviously not to win!

 

[Qwark28]

Why are you playing a character you don't like and doesn't suit your playstyle? Obviously not to win!

I always play to win, I use him vs certain matchups. I play the character because I like the joker, doesn't mean I have to like the way he plays or the fact you can condition baboons to get out of his setups.

 

[laudanum09]

I always play to win, I use him vs certain matchups. I play the character because I like the joker, doesn't mean I have to like the way he plays or the fact you can condition baboons to get out of his setups.

Okay

 

[Cat]

Actual joker mains? I had my hands on joker half a month before the game was even released and I still use joker. How did that even come from...? I know what I'm talking about, that guy has been playing fighting games since he was a little kid and have played some of the best fighting games at the time.

Don't get crazy now. I know I can blow up a lot of players with joker right now

 

[Cat]

I always play to win, I use him vs certain matchups. I play the character because I like the joker, doesn't mean I have to like the way he plays or the fact you can condition baboons to get out of his setups.

If you playing joker and only trying to set up. You playing him wrong.

 

[Qwark28]

If you playing joker and only trying to set up. You playing him wrong.

Never said I only play with setups, I said baboons can be conditioned to get out of them.