What's new

Match-up Discussion Johnny Cage: Official Matchup Discussion

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
not really. he doesnt really stand a chance at all. i beat average kenshis all the time with cage. but at a high level there really is no chance. there is no reason why kenshi should lose this one.
Dude you can make the right reads and overcome. You just have to take the bigger risks and a lot more of them. by the way crosstalk great write up. if I think of anything to add I will later
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
no. thats just unrealistic. you can overcome the kabal mu, but not this one. it really is just that bad
Do you understand how this game works man? Kenshi doesn't have an infinite that is gaurunteed from the beggining of the game. There are reads you can make, however difficult and not in your favor they may be, and they can win you the game. It isn't physically impossible to win....
 
crosstalk

Nice write-up of what options Cage has. Theres a few things that I think are kind of misleading though, that add to why it is such a nightmare matchup:

JIP 11f1 is nearly unusable if Kenshi has at least 1 bar of meter. On block, it gives Kenshi a free EX SC that can only be avoided by throwing out a random EX Nut Punch. It cannot be avoided by jump.

Pressuring Kenshi is nearly impossible regardless of meter. If he has meter, it just gives him an easier time as he doesn't have to worry about doing D1 SC. When he has meter he can do a very simple, foolproof strategy. This is when having blocked a neutral string, do regular SC. This will beat everything (including cross overs) that Cage does except d1 or d3. SC wins the trade with Cages standing 1 regardless of player side (it being a projectile). Now all you have to do is see if you have been hit by a D1 or D3 and immediately EX SC. After being hit by a D1 or D3, Kenshi gets a guaranteed EX SC that is not avoidable by crossover. Again, the only answer to this is throwing out a random EX nut punch.

That is why it is either 8-2 or 9-1. There is so many guaranteed escapes by Kenshi that the only answer to is spending a bar, throwing out a 35% punishable move that just puts you in the same situation. Even when he doesnt have meter, D1 SC is probably the best and easiest meterless escape in the game, and also prevents cross overs.
Good point on SC being a projectile, I guess it got stuffed sometimes by standing 2 simply because my opponent wasn't doing it fast enough. I'll change it when I get a chance. Is it possible to punish d1 xx SC without EX Nutpunch (like punishing Kitana's d1 xx Cutter)? I never really got a chance to test this out.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
crosstalk

Nice write-up of what options Cage has. Theres a few things that I think are kind of misleading though, that add to why it is such a nightmare matchup:

JIP 11f1 is nearly unusable if Kenshi has at least 1 bar of meter. On block, it gives Kenshi a free EX SC that can only be avoided by throwing out a random EX Nut Punch. It cannot be avoided by jump.

Pressuring Kenshi is nearly impossible regardless of meter. If he has meter, it just gives him an easier time as he doesn't have to worry about doing D1 SC. When he has meter he can do a very simple, foolproof strategy. This is when having blocked a neutral string, do regular SC. This will beat everything (including cross overs) that Cage does except d1 or d3. SC wins the trade with Cages standing 1 regardless of player side (it being a projectile). Now all you have to do is see if you have been hit by a D1 or D3 and immediately EX SC. After being hit by a D1 or D3, Kenshi gets a guaranteed EX SC that is not avoidable by crossover. Again, the only answer to this is throwing out a random EX nut punch.

That is why it is either 8-2 or 9-1. There is so many guaranteed escapes by Kenshi that the only answer to is spending a bar, throwing out a 35% punishable move that just puts you in the same situation. Even when he doesnt have meter, D1 SC is probably the best and easiest meterless escape in the game, and also prevents cross overs.
You really cannot get over ex shoulder when you are at advantage? I have always been successful with this, but I have never straight up tested it. At plus 3 I would think you could get over it, but if not that makes things so much harder..... So the goal would then be to catch kenshi off guard with a stagger string (maybe 11) and then catch him reacting late with jump over?
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Good point on SC being a projectile, I guess it got stuffed sometimes by standing 2 simply because my opponent wasn't doing it fast enough. I'll change it when I get a chance. Is it possible to punish d1 xx SC without EX Nutpunch (like punishing Kitana's d1 xx Cutter)? I never really got a chance to test this out.
Yeah, the main way to win this match is the Kenshi player messing up and mistiming things, lol. As far as actual, solid strategies against him there are very few if any.

No, D1 xx SC cannot be interrupted by anything Cage does except a perfectly timed D1. Which doesn't do anything for you and in reality is almost impossible to actually do.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
You really cannot get over ex shoulder when you are at advantage? I have always been successful with this, but I have never straight up tested it. At plus 3 I would think you could get over it, but if not that makes things so much harder..... So the goal would then be to catch kenshi off guard with a stagger string (maybe 11) and then catch him reacting late with jump over?
You must be at least +4 to make his SC or EX SC miss by doing a cross over.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
Yeah, the main way to win this match is the Kenshi player messing up and mistiming things, lol. As far as actual, solid strategies against him there are very few if any.

No, D1 xx SC cannot be interrupted by anything Cage does except a perfectly timed D1. Which doesn't do anything for you and in reality is almost impossible to actually do.
Well i would say playing with reaction time is a legitimate strategy, but yeah I get what you are saying. Force mistakes, force a breaker, then bait another mistake and punish haha. Looks like standing 2 is probably one of our best tools then, since it is really hard to react to with its short duration.
 
Yeah, the main way to win this match is the Kenshi player messing up and mistiming things, lol. As far as actual, solid strategies against him there are very few if any.

No, D1 xx SC cannot be interrupted by anything Cage does except a perfectly timed D1. Which doesn't do anything for you and in reality is almost impossible to actually do.
Yeah I'm still determined as hell though haha. I'm a firm believer in character loyalty but Kenshi tests this every time I play one.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
Yeah I'm still determined as hell though haha. I'm a firm believer in character loyalty but Kenshi tests this every time I play one.
I know how you feel. BTW I just figured out that you used to have a different name and you are on my friends list lol. At Winter Brawl I was like who is this guy he just came from nowhere! But now i know... solid play with him man.
 
I know how you feel. BTW I just figured out that you used to have a different name and you are on my friends list lol. At Winter Brawl I was like who is this guy he just came from nowhere! But now i know... solid play with him man.
Thanks. I had to change my name because I had like 3 names going at once lol.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
Thanks. I had to change my name because I had like 3 names going at once lol.
yeah. Lol you eliminated my sparring partner DrFLash44 at NEC and i was like you lost to a CAGE PLAYER? How does that even happen? But now i understand. We will have to play sometime soon, although I play sonya now, I am never afraid to pull out cage for old time sake haha.
 
yeah. Lol you eliminated my sparring partner DrFLash44 at NEC and i was like you lost to a CAGE PLAYER? How does that even happen? But now i understand. We will have to play sometime soon, although I play sonya now, I am never afraid to pull out cage for old time sake haha.
Yep I remember that haha. He had some really solid rushdown with Quan I don't see too often, felt like I was getting Quaned in the corner at one point. Not sure the next event I'm gonna go to, probably ECT, but we should def play if you go.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
Ok I explain the noob matchup in great detail while going back and forth with some noob players in this thread, it goes on for a few pages if you guys have the patience to read through it. Although things got somewhat ridiculous with one particularly angry member and myself who was getting somewhat frustrated, there is some good info here. Grolarbears also posts a fairly solid rebuttal (that I disagree with but it is at least logical) a few pages later
http://testyourmight.com/threads/my-noob-mu-chart.25508/page-2
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
Yep I remember that haha. He had some really solid rushdown with Quan I don't see too often, felt like I was getting Quaned in the corner at one point. Not sure the next event I'm gonna go to, probably ECT, but we should def play if you go.
His quan is ridiculous yeah, but damn cage is hard for quan haha (See how i got back on topic there? lol). And I should def be at ect so we can get some games in for sure.
 

Hacksu

Noob
also is there any way of punishing the teleport of rain, or the EX geisir kick? Im facing a Rain who uses only these two to move close to me. I know that d3 works but its only as an interrupt and gives Rain the wake up.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
crosstalk Hacksu

It's more lucky than anything if F33 beats EX RH. I think it only works if they let the RH go (which most don't do as its very vulnerable to crossup) as opposed to dash cancelling it into 4 RH. This happens to Raiden's EX Shocker and Sonya's EX Cartwheel too but yeah, I wouldn't count on it happening enough to be an actual strategy to counter it.

also is there any way of punishing the teleport of rain, or the EX geisir kick? Im facing a Rain who uses only these two to move close to me. I know that d3 works but its only as an interrupt and gives Rain the wake up.
You can punish both geyser kick and EX geyser kick on block with F33 Nut Punch. Wake-up or not, it doesn't matter.

I believe the proper punish to Rains teleport is a standing 1 juggle combo (like Cyrax's teleport) as the frames you are able to punish it, he is airborne. I don't remember 100% if he has any vulnerable frames on the ground as well, but I don't think so. Possibly Playpal remembers.
 
GGA Dizzy god dammit man I don't know everything.

Off-topic: I was considering making a comparison video/post of the pushback of f33b3 depending on whether the opponent crouch blocks or not, and 21f2. I'll get around to it eventually maybe.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
I tested the Rain teleport that was talked about a few posts up, you have to juggle punish him, he can block when he touches the floor. So there you go.