Jade General Discussion Thread

[Bi-on-iC]

Can we discuss her "What would Mileena do" brutality? Insanely awesome and gruesome!!

 

[HeavyNorse]

Can we discuss her "What would Mileena do" brutality? Insanely awesome and gruesome!!

It's so funny, because it is so out of character for Jade, but it really is exactly something Mileena would do! XD
I can just imagine Jade thinking "Okay, so I'm sitting up here now and just need to end this guy's life... how can I do that in a fun way? Hmm, I saw that one time Mileena jumped a guy with her sai and... oh right!"

 

[mercureXI]

If you play SubZero (example, I can use many other characters here) for 1 week, then go back to Jade, you'll see very easily that she has glaring problems.

Subz can stuff zoning with a 6f projectile that leads to combo > reset > mixups shenanigans.

He also can slide depending on his variation on reaction, from a crouch position, getting in quite easily.

During footsies, his step kick is a huge "fuck neutral" tool, that leaves him plus on block and way too fast to react to, especially when you are already afraid of his other tools. At best you'll flawless block. I still have to see people doing that against me though.

Once upclose, he can put you in 50/50 all day, with resets or damage depending on your position / life lead ... his mixups are relatively safe on block.



Now we have Jade : she can't really use projectiles against most of the cast (teleports or projectiles that bypass glow or ways to get in like subzero).

Her glow is partially useless (see above). That makes half of her specials useless or close to useless in many matchups.

She can't mix you up for good damage : you just crouch block and react to the 28f overhead. Rest of her options do little to no damage, and if you block her mixups, she is unsafe enough for you to combo her ass.

Now the worst part : if she guesses right and blocks an unsafe mixup or attack of any kind, she will NEVER launch you for huge damage, because I still have to see someone being -29 on block during a match ...

She is a high risk / low reward characters that makes high risk / high reward opponents into low-medium risk / high reward ones. That's a HUGE problem to me.



Playing footsies and being "good in neutral" is nice and all, but I've played a lot of characters, most have good spacing tools and none of the problems Jade has (half of the movelist being useless in most matchups + no mixup potential + punish damage being so weak you wanna cry)

Just try Skarlet for 2 days, you'll be amazed at her normals, at her ways to get in and stagger options, at her ways to bully people in the corner SAFELY, along with a teleport and life back on hit for her projectile (7% that can be OS) / her WAY BETTER counter (activates quicly, can hold it, can cancel it, the animation is not a huge hint, gives back about 10% life on MB etc) / her combo ender (V2).

Her spacing tools are great, her zoning is great, her corner escape options are better (teleport away), yet she is not forced to rely on a 28f starter to do damage if needed ... why is that ? That's because 90% of the cast can do so, and Jade is just not one of those characters ... Jade's zoning and pokes don't justify AT ALL being unable to mixup efficiently for "big" damage (if 30% can be called big damage, compared to Geras, etc). Certainly no reason here to punish people for 10% damage with 212, 124 etc ...

And Skarlet is not even top tier, far from that ...


Jade needs safer options while still losing her turn (-5 would be fine), and a faster f2 (20f like Skarlet would be fine IMO).

If not all of this : then at the very least, add moves like tentacle / drone drop / ice grenade / etc, to the list of moves that can be evaded with Glow.
It makes ZERO sense to have her only good at range and neutral, but completely ruin her pokes by being unsafe + glow being close to useless in most matchups


REO just posted his tier list with a 15min vid justifying his choice, you won't be surprised that Jade is C tier in his list ...

https://www.eventhubs.com/imagegallery/2019/may/03/mk-reos-tier-list/1/

 

[GLoRToR]

If you play SubZero (example, I can use many other characters here) for 1 week, then go back to Jade, you'll see very easily that she has glaring problems.

Subz can stuff zoning with a 6f projectile that leads to combo > reset > mixups shenanigans.

He also can slide depending on his variation on reaction, from a crouch position, getting in quite easily.

During footsies, his step kick is a huge "fuck neutral" tool, that leaves him plus on block and way too fast to react to, especially when you are already afraid of his other tools. At best you'll flawless block. I still have to see people doing that against me though.

Once upclose, he can put you in 50/50 all day, with resets or damage depending on your position / life lead ... his mixups are relatively safe on block.



Now we have Jade : she can't really use projectiles against most of the cast (teleports or projectiles that bypass glow or ways to get in like subzero).

Her glow is partially useless (see above). That makes half of her specials useless or close to useless in many matchups.

She can't mix you up for good damage : you just crouch block and react to the 28f overhead. Rest of her options do little to no damage, and if you block her mixups, she is unsafe enough for you to combo her ass.

Now the worst part : if she guesses right and blocks an unsafe mixup or attack of any kind, she will NEVER launch you for huge damage, because I still have to see someone being -29 on block during a match ...

She is a high risk / low reward characters that makes high risk / high reward opponents into low-medium risk / high reward ones. That's a HUGE problem to me.



Playing footsies and being "good in neutral" is nice and all, but I've played a lot of characters, most have good spacing tools and none of the problems Jade has (half of the movelist being useless in most matchups + no mixup potential + punish damage being so weak you wanna cry)

Just try Skarlet for 2 days, you'll be amazed at her normals, at her ways to get in and stagger options, at her ways to bully people in the corner SAFELY, along with a teleport and life back on hit for her projectile (7% that can be OS) / her WAY BETTER counter (activates quicly, can hold it, can cancel it, the animation is not a huge hint, gives back about 10% life on MB etc) / her combo ender (V2).

Her spacing tools are great, her zoning is great, her corner escape options are better (teleport away), yet she is not forced to rely on a 28f starter to do damage if needed ... why is that ? That's because 90% of the cast can do so, and Jade is just not one of those characters ... Jade's zoning and pokes don't justify AT ALL being unable to mixup efficiently for "big" damage (if 30% can be called big damage, compared to Geras, etc). Certainly no reason here to punish people for 10% damage with 212, 124 etc ...

And Skarlet is not even top tier, far from that ...


Jade needs safer options while still losing her turn (-5 would be fine), and a faster f2 (20f like Skarlet would be fine IMO).

If not all of this : then at the very least, add moves like tentacle / drone drop / ice grenade / etc, to the list of moves that can be evaded with Glow.
It makes ZERO sense to have her only good at range and neutral, but completely ruin her pokes by being unsafe + glow being close to useless in most matchups


REO just posted his tier list with a 15min vid justifying his choice, you won't be surprised that Jade is C tier in his list ...

https://www.eventhubs.com/imagegallery/2019/may/03/mk-reos-tier-list/1/

Watching THTB take minimal risks and losing against BV is enough proof for anyone.
Tay is a seriously good player and look at how little effort Geras takes in deleting Jade's healthbar even when the players are equally high level.

 

[Geoffmeister]

Little update on my thoughts on Jade, labbed her and some of the current top-tier chars some more..

• Big one: Jade gets 29% off 43 (13fr), just discovered this so... Rejoice? We get to remember -13 no pushback punishes.
  43 RangEX babydash D2 (288)
  EDIT: upon further testing... this only works on females...
• Probably old news: She can also Fatal Blow off Butterfly Conversion in the corner... Sadly only vs Males. (probably has to do with the post-beta-nerfs) Fly d1 21 Fatal Blow (326)
• Her Krushing Forward Throw is a launcher (Trust me, I tested to see if Scorpion had this, and he doesn't, so I consider it a rare tool /joke)

Now about her offense, there's something interesting here:
Whenever you can confirm, I've found it is a good idea to end standing combos (ie. punishes) with Rang (+7) or RangEX (+10) on hit, Jade can come in and B343/throw mix... Very strong because wake-ups can provide options this standing alternative does not, not that Jade can't deal with those either, but I believe this a vital offensive option for her (especially considering she doesn't get many of those and we don't miss out on a lot of damage).
Obviously, do not do this on block.

Alright that's the good news.
Here da bad:

This is still kitten-material compared to what the others are capable of.. stuff thats not very clear to everyone yet etc etc.
I'm hopeful for nerfs, but without taking that into consideration, I wanted to share acceptable .. ahem.. changes.. to Jade:

• Flawless Block / Get Up U2 Because this option is so deeply unreliable, she's forced to use U3 (intentionally, unoptimally), which is what some characters aim for to crush during oki... and because of that.. there's barely any incentive to risking a flawless block or wake-up option.. these are fundamental mechanics Jade is forced to ignore, completely independent of a players skill to use them effectively.

This is the only real change I want for Jade. The following depends on how they adjust other characters:

• Parry: Objectively the worst parry. Is there a use for it? Of course! Baiting wake-ups, ending unsafe strings with it. Neutral or in between gaps you're (usually) gonna have a bad time. And that's fine.. I'd just really like the option to hold for 10-20 frames, add that decision-making factor.
• Glow: Reduced recovery. No more than 5-10 frames.
• B12: As it stands now, this very important mid-checking tool is -18. Perfect spacing will get you -17. It will still be beat by plenty of specials. Remove the overhead, make it -11, still launch-punishable but manageable risk. It doesn't even launch I can hear Geras laughing at me every time.
• F21: I'm still on the fence of what F2 is supposed to be doing.
  Does it work as a mixup tool? At 28 frames... doubtful.
  Does it work as a whiff-punisher? It could, but it should not be this slow to do so, it should not be an overhead either.
  Does it work to catch jumps? Nope... don't ask me.
  I'd see it serve better as a 22 frame Mid whiff punisher. This'll help her catch jumpouts but won't stop it from happening. Alternatively, it can stay a 28fr overhead, but for that much time it shouldn't be whiffing on jumps as much as it does... One or the other, please, for once? lol
• Shadow Kick Becomes a mid + cannot be amped on block, stays -22. Slightly reduced whiff recovery, let her space this out so she can close the distance, let the opponent bait these out and launch punish without the amped guessing game.
  Contrary to popular belief, Jade doesn't get side-switches for free, this has no effect on that. What it does allow her is to make her more threatening in Shadow Kick range, people ducking her Standing Rang(EX) will have a harder time creating/closing distance (but an easier time punishing) Jades decision-making in this. Because... she is not a full-screen zoner, she is not an up-close pressure character... She does midrange space control jumpy jumps.
  This is theoretical, it's possible that the amped guessing game is stronger, I personally don't like those types of moves, and think this would suit her more... Could be wrong.

Tl;dr,: Big list, small changes. Less "mix", more gameplan.

 

[GLoRToR]

This is the only real change I want for Jade. The following depends on how they adjust other characters:

• Parry: Objectively the worst parry. Is there a use for it? Of course! Baiting wake-ups, ending unsafe strings with it. Neutral or in between gaps you're (usually) gonna have a bad time. And that's fine.. I'd just really like the option to hold for 10-20 frames, add that decision-making factor.
• Glow: Reduced recovery. No more than 5-10 frames.
• B12: As it stands now, this very important mid-checking tool is -18. Perfect spacing will get you -17. It will still be beat by plenty of specials. Remove the overhead, make it -11, still launch-punishable but manageable risk. It doesn't even launch I can hear Geras laughing at me every time.
• F21: I'm still on the fence of what F2 is supposed to be doing.
  Does it work as a mixup tool? At 28 frames... doubtful.
  Does it work as a whiff-punisher? It could, but it should not be this slow to do so, it should not be an overhead either.
  Does it work to catch jumps? Nope... don't ask me.
  I'd see it serve better as a 22 frame Mid whiff punisher. This'll help her catch jumpouts but won't stop it from happening. Alternatively, it can stay a 28fr overhead, but for that much time it shouldn't be whiffing on jumps as much as it does... One or the other, please, for once? lol
• Shadow Kick Becomes a mid + cannot be amped on block, stays -22. Slightly reduced whiff recovery, let her space this out so she can close the distance, let the opponent bait these out and launch punish without the amped guessing game.
  Contrary to popular belief, Jade doesn't get side-switches for free, this has no effect on that. What it does allow her is to make her more threatening in Shadow Kick range, people ducking her Standing Rang(EX) will have a harder time creating/closing distance (but an easier time punishing) Jades decision-making in this. Because... she is not a full-screen zoner, she is not an up-close pressure character... She does midrange space control jumpy jumps.
  This is theoretical, it's possible that the amped guessing game is stronger, I personally don't like those types of moves, and think this would suit her more... Could be wrong.

Tl;dr,: Big list, small changes. Less "mix", more gameplan.

It's rare that I do not completely agree with you, Geoff. I guess it had to happen.

• Parry. Yes, it should be 7F like the rest of the prominent parries in the game such as Sonya's, and holdable.
• Glow. Making it i18 would ideally make it safe against zoners but still fully punishable, especially if it's going to not work on a lot of zoning in the game like it already is. Everyone and their mothers have a half screen reaching move that comes out in under 18f so it's still going to be risky but at least she won't get blown up full screen like she does now against people who know what they are doing.
• B12: Keep the overhead, make b1 push back on block.
• F21: I think she needs a new F2 this current one is literally unviable.
• Shadow Kick: I'd like it to return to how it always was. Still a high, 0 on block.

These changes are all optional though. Jade's biggest problem is still that she takes minimal reward off of gigantic risks, scraping away at the bottom of the barrel while characters like Liu, Geras, Scorp, Sub, Erron can just do full combos and she'll never get a definitive life lead.

 

[Miasmata123]

Jade needs safer options while still losing her turn (-5 would be fine), and a faster f2 (20f like Skarlet would be fine IMO).

If not all of this : then at the very least, add moves like tentacle / drone drop / ice grenade / etc, to the list of moves that can be evaded with Glow.
It makes ZERO sense to have her only good at range and neutral, but completely ruin her pokes by being unsafe + glow being close to useless in most matchups


REO just posted his tier list with a 15min vid justifying his choice, you won't be surprised that Jade is C tier in his list ...

https://www.eventhubs.com/imagegallery/2019/may/03/mk-reos-tier-list/1/

Skarlet's F2 leads to literally nothing but knockdown and doesn't have quite the reach of Jade's F2 I believe.

A 20f start up puts her on Sub Zero 50/50 territory but on steroids. Any faster than what it is now risks making her broken. Human reaction speed is about 23f I believe. Animation works into it, but yeah.

I hate repeating myself but this isnt MKX anymore. Most of the cast lacks the ability for mix up. Some characters dont even have an overhead starter outside of hops and some dont have a low starter. The "block low and react" or "block high and react" meme works for every single character outside of Sub-Zero and Geras, though I think the latter you can actually fuzzy. Maybe I missed a couple but true unreactable/unfuzzyable mix-ups are rare.

Also if you're going to cite a video please watch it first. Reo puts Jade in a tier he calls A- as a reflection of how balanced he thinks the game is, and it's a tier he thinks is the balanced tier who lack the bullshit of the upper tiers. It's a much more positive take than "Jade is C tier".

 

[Wrath0594]

Has pole vault always been -4? I coulda sworn it was punishable last time I checked.

 

[GLoRToR]

Has pole vault always been -4? I coulda sworn it was punishable last time I checked.

Yes, it was always safe. It's the cancels that suck in V2, and that the nitro kick amp is literally useless where she could have something useful instead.

 

[GLoRToR]

Skarlet's F2 leads to literally nothing but knockdown and doesn't have quite the reach of Jade's F2 I believe.

Skarlet benefits from the KD it deals because she's heavily dependent on being able to lock the opponent down.
Still, I agree that F2 is an odd bastard child of a spacing tool and a launcher and I wish it dealt KD instead and that Jade had a proper punish launcher.

A 20f start up puts her on Sub Zero 50/50 territory but on steroids. Any faster than what it is now risks making her broken. Human reaction speed is about 23f I believe. Animation works into it, but yeah.

Human reaction varies person to person between 15-18f on anticipation, 20f borderline reactable up to 22f and those two frames being the tightest spot where humans are all very similar, and then anywhere upwards 24f it just becomes perfectly reactable, or trainable for those who can't right away. F2 is currently not viable because Jade doesn't have a safe low with a similar reach, and even if she did have that, people would still have ample time to block low and react to the high. Which is why i20 would make her more viable.

At 20F the current f2 would be competitive, meaning it would bring her closer to Sub-Zero as you say, but it would still be -19 as opposed to Sub-Zero's -6 full safety.

I hate repeating myself but this isnt MKX anymore. Most of the cast lacks the ability for mix up. Some characters dont even have an overhead starter outside of hops and some dont have a low starter. The "block low and react" or "block high and react" meme works for every single character outside of Sub-Zero and Geras, though I think the latter you can actually fuzzy. Maybe I missed a couple but true unreactable/unfuzzyable mix-ups are rare.

I think that all mixups should be unsafe and none of them should be fuzziable or reactable. I also think that mixups should not be a definitive option that offer an end-all to gameplans but rather something you can utilise sometimes, so they shouldn't be on the same string that advances / reaches / takes turn but rather a separate method.

Also if you're going to cite a video please watch it first. Reo puts Jade in a tier he calls A- as a reflection of how balanced he thinks the game is, and it's a tier he thinks is the balanced tier who lack the bullshit of the upper tiers. It's a much more positive take than "Jade is C tier".

Minus and Plus tiers are the niceguy way to not put the bottom tier into Z tier when there is so much balance inconsistency on a roster. You can readily name them S-A-B-C-D-E tiers and not sugarcoat how character power differences are affected now.

Again, new game.
Again, patches to come.

 

[Miasmata123]

Skarlet benefits from the KD it deals because she's heavily dependent on being able to lock the opponent down.
Still, I agree that F2 is an odd bastard child of a spacing tool and a launcher and I wish it dealt KD instead and that Jade had a proper punish launcher.

Human reaction varies person to person between 15-18f on anticipation, 20f borderline reactable up to 22f and those two frames being the tightest spot where humans are all very similar, and then anywhere upwards 24f it just becomes perfectly reactable, or trainable for those who can't right away. F2 is currently not viable because Jade doesn't have a safe low with a similar reach, and even if she did have that, people would still have ample time to block low and react to the high. Which is why i20 would make her more viable.

Jade has 12. It is literally a 21f start up -7 on block low with similar reach to f2. She has Spark as well. Yes you can react to these things if you're on your toes, and I hope that doesnt change.

Jade's f21 is -12 and completely safe if you actually learn to position yourself correctly.

At 20F the current f2 would be competitive, meaning it would bring her closer to Sub-Zero as you say, but it would still be -19 as opposed to Sub-Zero's -6 full safety.

The f2 at 20f would be beyond busted. How many people are complaining about sub's 50/50 off a 19f overhead? People cant react to that shit, not even the pros, so let's give Jade a 20f midscreen overhead launcher just because some people can't play her right? Why are you people trying to bring her "closer" to a busted character? Quit comparing Jade to obvious outliers of balance, we want her good not broken.

Minus and Plus tiers are the niceguy way to not put the bottom tier into Z tier when there is so much balance inconsistency on a roster. You can readily name them S-A-B-C-D-E tiers and not sugarcoat how character power differences are affected now.

Again, new game.
Again, patches to come.

I'm sure reo put a lot of effort into that video. Throwing it out there with "jade is c tier" is downright disgraceful to his analysis of her which overall was very positive. He categorized it that way for a reason, and it's because he thinks the gap between A- and A+ is not so large. Stop misrepresenting his opinion to complain about a character you probably just cant play right.

THTB did an amazing job displaying the tools Jade had against a Geras and even calls the match up 5/5. Props to him and I hope to see more of that amazing gameplay!

 

[Geoffmeister]

@GLoRToR

It's rare that I do not completely agree with you, Geoff. I guess it had to happen.
Haha, that's fine, it's healthier getting more opinions on these things

• Parry. Yes, it should be 7F like the rest of the prominent parries in the game such as Sonya's, and holdable.
  They didn't want this parry to be used reactionary.. I don't see it happening, not saying it wouldn't be welcome..
• Glow. Making it i18 would ideally make it safe against zoners but still fully punishable, especially if it's going to not work on a lot of zoning in the game like it already is. Everyone and their mothers have a half screen reaching move that comes out in under 18f so it's still going to be risky but at least she won't get blown up full screen like she does now against people who know what they are doing.
  I don't think you want to push for this, I noticed (especially In Jade mirrors) how strong of a tool Glow actually is, and she does not get this for free,, she shouldn't tbh, i18 is free... A small reduction would be nice because some characters don't have to respect it at all at 45 recovery... that's a bit much.
• B12: Keep the overhead, make b1 push back on block.
  Won't help her... B1 is -15, there's a gap after it too and right now doesn't even win her trades.
  Making it safer it becomes a poking tool... Something needs to happen though... anything.
• F21: I think she needs a new F2 this current one is literally unviable.
  In all seriousness, you can't just throw out a 28fr move like this at high level. This has to be perfectly timed on oki, on a read, and if mistimed you're looking at death... there are so many things that can go wrong using this string, I'm leaning towards unviable more each day..
• Shadow Kick: I'd like it to return to how it always was. Still a high, 0 on block.
  Again, .. bit of overkill with this lol. 0 on block it becomes more of a pressure tool.. d1-shadow kick?
  If anything, this could be -7... even that would be very good..

These changes are all optional though. Jade's biggest problem is still that she takes minimal reward off of gigantic risks, scraping away at the bottom of the barrel while characters like Liu, Geras, Scorp, Sub, Erron can just do full combos and she'll never get a definitive life lead.
While true, I've come to notice Glows and AirRang Pressure functionality.. it's pretty strong., enough to set her apart from them, but definitely not as oppressive overall.
She just ties herself up using b1 to capitalize and I do not understand why this is a thing... Death for knockdown ...
So if this gets addressed, she can play ball.. as of now, I feel like she's kinda winging it.

 

[Espio]

Winners Finals and Grand Finals vs BurritoVoorhees at Mortal Mayhem today!

I lost, but fun games overall! I saw a lot of stuff and definitely learned. Made some pretty notable mistakes, but overall, this likely will be a basic outline of ED Jade vs NE Geras.

The second set, Grand Finals, you can see I discovered that pillar is indeed a projectile, so glow works! That was the one thing I was wondering during the Winners Finals set, but didn't want to experiment with, as I wasn't sure if he'd actually sand trap instead. Burrito and I talked, and he even mentions in the post-tourney interview, air glaive really makes the matchup a lot closer to even. I think what will be imperative is taking advantage of every spot we can potentially glow, as it allows us to do low air glaives without as much fear of the knockdown. Up close, Geras is Geras lol, but d4 is important to use. We'll figure out more on the matchup as we play more.

Wow, I'm so happy to see this. Your standing 2 anti-air into air glaive conversion is dope as fuck. I really like the way you play her with all the staggers and I also like using 2,1,2.

The stuff she can and can't glow is very weird because you have to think so much more about it and you're not reacting to the difference between sand trap and the others so it kind of mind tricks you out lol.

You look very clean and complete in your play for week two, definitely looking forward to more and curious to play at some point.

Eh yeah I just threw it out there in case anyone wanted to look into it. A quick YouTube search of kotal Kahn 1100 damage brought it up fast XD. It's completely impractical (requires three totems at a minimum and probably 3x damage buff from his throw, so at that point the 1100 damage is overkill by like 800 damage anyway lol) but I guess it does exist.

And yeah the staff strings are pretty garbo outside that amazing poke. I just think they're flashy and are fun to use. I didn't realize that gap was 12 frames!

I do really hope they expand the tournament variations a bit cause Jade has some sweet and more practical tools available for her there. Plus it feels like a waste of their own time and money to add so many moves and then just have the player never really experience them outside the most casual of casual game modes.

It's bigger than 12 frames. Baraka did his twelve frame mid with travel time and still clocked Jade ass lol. The Delia's dance is lit though as it encompasses all that good stuff.

I don't even necessarily want variation expansion UNLESS it includes customs only because I believe that the customs were intended to complete a lot of characters and I'd hate to see some of that stuff in a whole separate variation without air glaive or pole vault.

 

[Gruff757]

Yerrrr fashionably late to the party

Sup yall.

 

[GLoRToR]

Jade has 12. It is literally a 21f start up -7 on block low with similar reach to f2. She has Spark as well. Yes you can react to these things if you're on your toes, and I hope that doesnt change.

Factually incorrect on your assertion about f2 being -12.
Spark is suicide if it gets blocked anywhere within f2 range. I do agree though, that f21 is a difficult move to balance and I think the solution is to give her a new one. Perfectly reactable mechanics either need to be fully safe otherwise the risk/reward is skewed. I feel like the concept of her f21 isn't a good one and that giving her something else instead of it, would be best.
And before you ask, that has happened before and it can again.

I'm sure reo put a lot of effort into that video. Throwing it out there with "jade is c tier" is downright disgraceful to his analysis of her which overall was very positive. He categorized it that way for a reason, and it's because he thinks the gap between A- and A+ is not so large.

You seem to misunderstand the tier notations but I already corrected you on that. Read back. REO is always positive, he was positive about MK9 Jade as well, and people who actually know what they are talking about remember how that went.

because some people can't play her right?

complain about a character you probably just cant play right.

At least now I see why you keep spouting "without context" and that I was "condescending". Gaslighting at its finest.
You need to step away from this concept where you're some kind of pinnacle of perfection and everyone who disagrees with you is somehow just inferior to you and there is literally no way people could actually be onto something you aren't ready to notice.
Especially since you clearly don't have half the knowledge that the "some people" do and you keep getting corrected on assertions that clearly betray your incompetence. I can't say this any nicer.

You're nowhere near the level of comprehension to talk about people that way.

 

[GLoRToR]

Yerrrr fashionably late to the party

Sup yall.

Long time no see. Welcome to the party, bro.

 

[Miasmata123]

@GLoRToR

It's rare that I do not completely agree with you, Geoff. I guess it had to happen.
Haha, that's fine, it's healthier getting more opinions on these things

• Parry. Yes, it should be 7F like the rest of the prominent parries in the game such as Sonya's, and holdable.
  They didn't want this parry to be used reactionary.. I don't see it happening, not saying it wouldn't be welcome..
• Glow. Making it i18 would ideally make it safe against zoners but still fully punishable, especially if it's going to not work on a lot of zoning in the game like it already is. Everyone and their mothers have a half screen reaching move that comes out in under 18f so it's still going to be risky but at least she won't get blown up full screen like she does now against people who know what they are doing.
  I don't think you want to push for this, I noticed (especially In Jade mirrors) how strong of a tool Glow actually is, and she does not get this for free,, she shouldn't tbh, i18 is free... A small reduction would be nice because some characters don't have to respect it at all at 45 recovery... that's a bit much.
• B12: Keep the overhead, make b1 push back on block.
  Won't help her... B1 is -15, there's a gap after it too and right now doesn't even win her trades.
  Making it safer it becomes a poking tool... Something needs to happen though... anything.
• F21: I think she needs a new F2 this current one is literally unviable.
  In all seriousness, you can't just throw out a 28fr move like this at high level. This has to be perfectly timed on oki, on a read, and if mistimed you're looking at death... there are so many things that can go wrong using this string, I'm leaning towards unviable more each day..
• Shadow Kick: I'd like it to return to how it always was. Still a high, 0 on block.
  Again, .. bit of overkill with this lol. 0 on block it becomes more of a pressure tool.. d1-shadow kick?
  If anything, this could be -7... even that would be very good..

These changes are all optional though. Jade's biggest problem is still that she takes minimal reward off of gigantic risks, scraping away at the bottom of the barrel while characters like Liu, Geras, Scorp, Sub, Erron can just do full combos and she'll never get a definitive life lead.
While true, I've come to notice Glows and AirRang Pressure functionality.. it's pretty strong., enough to set her apart from them, but definitely not as oppressive overall.
She just ties herself up using b1 to capitalize and I do not understand why this is a thing... Death for knockdown ...
So if this gets addressed, she can play ball.. as of now, I feel like she's kinda winging it.

I think if f2 actually hit airborne opponents it would be actually usable if not pretty good as a pressure tool. Right now against a good opponent theyll spot your use of it and just jump through it (actually through the staff it's dumb) and full combo you. Trying to spark cancel leads to the same thing.

Your thought about a faster mid hitting whiff punish is also really interesting. I like that option as well maybe.

The thing about b1 is I feel like f4 is just far superior and they both do basically the same thing. I think people I've been watching arent taking advantage of it quite as much as they could be. F4 is a bit slower but it actually hops over low pokes and is really strong and only -4 on block if you don't complete the string. In this poke heavy game I find myself gliding over low kicks a lot more than I even mean to. B1 might be slightly better as a check and does keep you stationary but it is so unnecssarily unsafe. I guess because of the potential b12/b1 spark cancel they didn't want Jade to gain a ranged vortex without it being unsafe.

 

[DrZmmm]

F4 definitely seems to be underrated. I've been incorporating it into my gameplan lately.

Her KBs need to do more damage.

 

[GLoRToR]

They didn't want this parry to be used reactionary.. I don't see it happening, not saying it wouldn't be welcome..

She came in development before the characters whose parries then were made better.
It's the same oversight due to time constraints, as most of her kit where they were saying like
"We don't want huge combos anymore, here is Jade for you to look at how we'll tackle that."
And then they released Liu Kang.

It boils down to the time constraints in my opinion / experience: the window in which they had each character to develop and balance and they didn't have much time to cross-reference every skillset. That's why I keep repeating myself, saying that patching is yet to happen and that she needs some help. She's a secondary character by story significance so it's only natural she has less effort gone into her kit right now as say, Liu or Rayden.

I don't think you want to push for this, I noticed (especially In Jade mirrors) how strong of a tool Glow actually is, and she does not get this for free,, she shouldn't tbh, i18 is free... A small reduction would be nice because some characters don't have to respect it at all at 45 recovery... that's a bit much.

We'll remain agreeing to disagree on that one. But if you want to see my point of view pick up a character like Liu or heck, even Kitana if you think you don't want to deal with the gap between tiers, and fight a competent Jade. You can literally force Glow out in situations where you can then abuse the 44 frames, or even use a 20f move and then use the remaining 24 frames which is literally plenty of time for a character with a decent wavedash/reach to blow her up for it every time, by just not allowing Jade to be full screen.
The main issue is not just that Glow is -44 it's that most of the characters she'd get leverage against either have tools which it does not work on, or the means to wavedash in and wreck her in the face every single time.
You can replicate these things in the lab, don't take my word for it, see for yourself.

• Shadow Kick: I'd like it to return to how it always was. Still a high, 0 on block.
  Again, .. bit of overkill with this lol. 0 on block it becomes more of a pressure tool.. d1-shadow kick?
  If anything, this could be -7... even that would be very good..

Trust me, a high that's 0 on block is nothing to write home about. People will duck you and blow you up. I have 20 Thousand Matches with MK9 Jade who had the same and people are d1-punishing that. Regardless of game or meta. Kitana's d1 square wave in MKX, the same thing.
The functionality of the safe advancing mid is best displayed by Kitana's Square Wave in the current game's Fan Fare, which has pushback instead of just being downright neutral. It's Not punishable and it's a great tool to check people and keep them weary.
SK being punishable is a new, unfortunate, and unnecessary complication with no good reason.
In situations where you'd use it to change sides people will spy it and duck it, and if you're hitting someone with a combo then the side switch is somewhat useful in some cases but then if they're near the corner the normal kick's knockback is also pretty low tier.

• F21: I think she needs a new F2 this current one is literally unviable.
  In all seriousness, you can't just throw out a 28fr move like this at high level. This has to be perfectly timed on oki, on a read, and if mistimed you're looking at death... there are so many things that can go wrong using this string, I'm leaning towards unviable more each day..

I'm not wasting hot air when I say something, brother. i28 is not viable and a move with that range and speed is going to get accustomed to and become literally unusable on the long term. She needs a new F2, or people need to deal with it being i20. I'd rather she got a new one, personally. One that's functional and not OD.

• B12: Keep the overhead, make b1 push back on block.
  Won't help her... B1 is -15, there's a gap after it too and right now doesn't even win her trades.
  Making it safer it becomes a poking tool... Something needs to happen though... anything.

I agree, B1 is such a good tool with such bad treatment right now.

So if this gets addressed, she can play ball.. as of now, I feel like she's kinda winging it.

During the beta I was first to notice the issues with her frame data. All the people who were pointing fingers back then are sure quiet about that now, lol.
I have faith in NRS.
Jade will be solid with some good patching and post-release dev.

... I hope.

 

[Miasmata123]

Factually incorrect on your assertion about f2 being -12.
Spark is suicide if it gets blocked anywhere within f2 range. I do agree though, that f21 is a difficult move to balance and I think the solution is to give her a new one. Perfectly reactable mechanics either need to be fully safe otherwise the risk/reward is skewed. I feel like the concept of her f21 isn't a good one and that giving her something else instead of it, would be best.
And before you ask, that has happened before and it can again.


You seem to misunderstand the tier notations but I already corrected you on that. Read back. REO is always positive, he was positive about MK9 Jade as well, and people who actually know what they are talking about remember how that went.



At least now I see why you keep spouting "without context" and that I was "condescending". Gaslighting at its finest.
You need to step away from this concept where you're some kind of pinnacle of perfection and everyone who disagrees with you is somehow just inferior to you and there is literally no way people could actually be onto something you aren't ready to notice.
Especially since you clearly don't have half the knowledge that the "some people" do and you keep getting corrected on assertions that clearly betray your incompetence. I can't say this any nicer.

You're nowhere near the level of comprehension to talk about people that way.

F21 is -12 on block? That spreadsheet could be outdated I guess but I'm too lazy to double check. It has problems? Yes. Does it need to be changed to give Jade an almost unreactable midscreen 50/50? No of course not, that's all I was pointing out. I20 could be decent if it was a mid, but as an overhead that's just some broken shit in this game.

Also, dont misrepresent someone's opinions. Reo is positive about every character, dont tell people he said Jade is C tier as it implies he thinks she is in need of help, when it seems pretty clear from his video he thinks the top just need to be brought down to the tier Jade is in.
If you want to use someone's respected opinion to bolster your argument find someone more negative then, but mischaracterizing his opinion is again just disgraceful. Sajam had Jade similarly ranked btw, noting she's a solid character with a lot of good tools and didnt really say anything negative about her.

Sorry I questioned your ability to play her, but using that video and saying jade is C tier just tilts me so hard. It's the worst kind of deception, and is insulting to the intelligence of anyone reading it.

But I'm glad I gave you some context. Nice to see I got you to stop spewing crap about Jade's negative strings. Hope to see you learn more from mature discussion here where people don't just insult each other or presume so much about the person they're discussing with.
I gave you a ton of compliments and told you I'd look forward to playing with you for practice if I bought the PC version, even despite you telling me constantly that I needed to play good players and 'explore'.

Watch THTB do downright amazingly against a top tier character like Geras to see Jade's potential. Even your response to that great game is negative. It's tiring. Luckily I'm a loser with the time to write essays about Jade!

 

[Wrath0594]

Seriously tho, pole vault? Why aren't more people using this? You lose the low projectile, but that thing isn't that great to begin and the air one is so-so. -4 mid, that knocks down for good frame adv. Gives her decent metereless conversions as well. People can trade d2, but it feels too fast to do it on reaction. When I mash it, it's inconsistent. They can also jump forward and kick, but no conversion, and again, not on reaction. Feels like it lets her get dmg and knockdowns on a lot of little hits like b2. Also keeps her much safer, can setup frametraps on block, and puts her nice and close for things like b3 which is her best normal, it's nearly identical to Liu Kang's f4,3.

Idk what's the established main variant around here, but V2 seems better overall. You get the shadow kick that doesn't switch sides too. Not sure if anyone has played with using pole vault to get in on zoners either, but I feel like there could be some application at fullscreen involving the cancel and the amp.

Also, when I was messing around with her, something I feel isn't mentioned enough is that her parry recovers in 7 frames. Liu Kang's has 18 frames of recovery, and Skarlet's has 20 for reference. Obviously startup is the most important stat for a parry, but not mentioning this seems disingenuous.

 

[Miasmata123]

Seriously tho, pole vault? Why aren't more people using this? You lose the low projectile, but that thing isn't that great to begin and the air one is so-so. -4 mid, that knocks down for good frame adv. Gives her decent metereless conversions as well. People can trade d2, but it feels too fast to do it on reaction. When I mash it, it's inconsistent. They can also jump forward and kick, but no conversion, and again, not on reaction. Feels like it lets her convert of a lot of little hits, stuff like b2 and what not.

Idk what's the established main variant around here, but V2 seems better overall. You get the shadow kick that doesn't switch sides too.
Not sure if anyone has played with pole vault to close distance.

Also, when I was messing around with her, something I feel isn't mentioned enough is that her parry recovers in 7 frames. Liu Kang's has 18 frames of recovery, and Skarlet's has 20.

One of the Jade's in the top 100 on PS4 seemed to use pole vault more than the other variation. This was a few days ago when I watched them so I'm not sure where they stand now on the leaderboards or Jade's loadout but it was interesting and different. You can watch replays of people on the leaderboards if they're still there.

Also wtf her Parry is only 7f of recovery? I feel like I'm way underusing it, but normally if I'm standing up to be able to use it people just go to hit or poke me low anyway, and Jade doesnt really have stagger cancel into parry like Liu does (at least I dont think so). Definitely a place to explore though.

 

[GLoRToR]

Seriously tho, pole vault? Why aren't more people using this? You lose the low projectile, but that thing isn't that great to begin and the air one is so-so. -4 mid, that knocks down for good frame adv. Gives her decent metereless conversions as well. People can trade d2, but it feels too fast to do it on reaction. When I mash it, it's inconsistent. They can also jump forward and kick, but no conversion, and again, not on reaction. Feels like it lets her convert of a lot of little hits, stuff like b2 and what not as well as keep them safer.

It was the first variation I labbed first because I was happy that Jade could potentially have frame advantage and rushdown. Sadly that is not the case. The cancels are negative.
The main drawback of pole vault overall is that it's not instantaneous on block and activating it runs the risk of a d2 as you noticed, as well as some other options which come out on time to make it trade or even stuff it. I'll admit I haven't tested who can, if anyone, backdash it or has a hop or a special that hits you out of it, but the overall concept of the move is not amazing from what little I've tested it in the lab.
It does help her overall kit but it's not something I think that's worth a whole variation as it is right now.

Idk what's the established main variant around here, but V2 seems better overall. You get the shadow kick that doesn't switch sides too.
Not sure if anyone has played with pole vault to get in on zoners, but I feel like there could be some application at fullscreen involving the cancel and the amp.

We mostly agreed that her V1 is the viable one because without airglaive she'll suffer. On the other hand, if you find anything great with the pole vault variation do let us know, because I'm not conceited enough to think that labbing something for a day is going to give me all the answers about it. I generally didn't like it much but maybe you can find something worth mentioning.

Also, when I was messing around with her, something I feel isn't mentioned enough is that her parry recovers in 7 frames. Liu Kang's has 18 frames of recovery, and Skarlet's has 20.

That only means there is a smaller window to time it right on top of it being i12 so coming out much slower.

 

[Wrath0594]

One of the Jade's in the top 100 on PS4 seemed to use pole vault more than the other variation. This was a few days ago when I watched them so I'm not sure where they stand now on the leaderboards or Jade's loadout but it was interesting and different. You can watch replays of people on the leaderboards if they're still there.

Also wtf her Parry is only 7f of recovery? I feel like I'm way underusing it, but normally if I'm standing up to be able to use it people just go to hit or poke me low anyway, and Jade doesnt really have stagger cancel into parry like Liu does (at least I dont think so). Definitely a place to explore though.

I'm surprised. One of the things I see mentioned that would help her is a safe special, and V2 seems to have exactly that. Her low projectile "50/50" off f2 is a shitty gimmick anyway, they can fuzzyguard by blocking high then low. And the thing is just all around terrible. Since it travels on the fucking ground, anyone can jump it with ease. If you guys aren't using V2, I encourage you all to play with it. Maybe people have and it also sucks? Idk. Don't feel like reading through the whole thread. Seems solid though. Turns b2 into a 180dmg knockdown, or a -4 on block mid string.

And yeah, the 7f thing surprised me too. It being that much safer shouldn't be ignored, especially since not everyone has a low starter to blow her up with.

 

[GLoRToR]

And yeah, the 7f thing surprised me too. It being that much safer shouldn't be ignored, especially since not everyone has a low starter to blow her up with.

It has its utility, you can catch advancing mids with it for some mediocre damage spending 2 bars and then pop, next is a Krushing Blow. But in general it's not a great tool, sadly.