Question - Summoner It is time for some real Quan talk

[wsj515]

Totally out of curiosity, to the guys who think Quan is super broken:

Why do you think that despite having very strong tournament representation, Quan only does averagely well?


I mean, having a YOMI player that plays almost exclusively Quan means that he's been at essentially every major tournament, but arguably, and I mean ZERO offense to him by saying this, Michaelangelo may be the least successful of the main YOMI players. There are also plenty of other Quans in tournament, so it's not like you can say he is under represented.

I mean aside from Evo, I don't remember the last time Quan did anything passed barely breaking top 8 and even that isn't very common. Except for West Coast tournaments but those obviously don't count.


Do you guys think Quan players just need to level up overall?

No offense to the Quan mains who go to tournaments, I truly think that his representation is really weak as a player base, and those lack of top 8s are due to the people who play Quan, and not the character.

That being said, lets put this thread back on track:

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

lol chef, are you hearing yourself?
"Quan placing top 8 AT EVO shouldn't hold so much weight" (also this being BEFORE all the rest of the top 8 characters were nerfed).
lol chef your logic FailFish
just cus your quan chi isnt great doesn't mean the character isnt

I didn't say Quan being in top 8 at Evo shouldn't hold a lot of weight. Obviously Quan is super good.

The point of this thread is people saying Quan is TOO good though and needs to be nerfed.

Well by that logic, is every character that made top 8 at Evo TOO good?

I'm pretty sure your logic is weaker than mine in that regard.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

No offense to the Quan mains who go to tournaments, I truly think that his representation is really weak as a player base, and those lack of top 8s are due to the people who play Quan, and not the character.

That being said, lets put this thread back on track:

That's a good, honest response.

 

[M.D.]

The conclusion of this thread is: give Quan the ability to choose sides for his sky drop as in MK9 and be 0 when he does it.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I didn't say Quan being in top 8 at Evo shouldn't hold a lot of weight. Obviously Quan is super good.

The point of this thread is people saying Quan is TOO good though and needs to be nerfed.

Well by that logic, is every character that made top 8 at Evo TOO good?

I'm pretty sure your logic is weaker than mine in that regard.

You got it mixed up. He got top 5 at EVO, he was clearly good enough as is. Whether he was too GOOD or not back then is irrelevant because he's been BUFFED since not nerfed

The very next day after that placing at EVO, Shujink made a thread asking for 6 frame D1.

The very next patch, Quan was given a 6 frame D1 and a buncha other shit.


The character Quan is now is different to the one that placed at EVO, and nobody is asking him to be weaker than he was then, maybe some block frames added to the pseudo but QC players claim they never use that anyway, so shouldn't be an issue. People aren't saying he was too strong back at EVO a they sayin he's too strong now and strictly because of the changes he received since EVO, so I'm pretty sure your logic isn't stronger than his here at all

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

You got it mixed up. He got top 5 at EVO, he was clearly good enough as is. Whether he was too GOOD or not back then is irrelevant because he's been BUFFED since not nerfed

The very next day after that placing at EVO, Shujink made a thread asking for 6 frame D1.

The very next patch, Quan was given a 6 frame D1 and a buncha other shit.


The character Quan is now is different to the one that placed at EVO, and nobody is asking him to be weaker than he was then, maybe some block frames added to the pseudo but QC players claim they never use that anyway, so shouldn't be an issue. People aren't saying he was too strong back at EVO a they sayin he's too strong now and strictly because of the changes he received since EVO, so I'm pretty sure your logic isn't stronger than his here at all

First of all you never replied to me asking what Warlock Quan got out of the Skull buff earlier, I'm still curious.

Second, by that logic Reptile got waaaay more buffs than Quan and he also placed top 8, so is does he need nerfs too?

Also my question still stands, why isn't Quan getting results anywhere else? I'm not arguing here but I would like some answers to these questions before we say "NERF HIM!"

 

[Evil Canadian]

Time to reform your image Quan players, perhaps win over the anime crowd by name changing to Quan Chie.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Time to reform your image Quan players, perhaps win over the anime crowd by name changing to Quan Chie.

Quan-chan

 

[Prinz]

Why can't I choose two answers in the poll? Because he's abviously broke, but he also obviously needs buffs because why the fuck not.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

First of all you never replied to me asking what Warlock Quan got out of the Skull buff earlier, I'm still curious.

Second, by that logic Reptile got waaaay more buffs than Quan and he also placed top 8, so is does he need nerfs too?

Also my question still stands, why isn't Quan getting results anywhere else? I'm not arguing here but I would like some answers to these questions before we say "NERF HIM!"

The question was immediately answered by someone else

You are the only person using tourney results as proof or logic to make any conclusions at all, if you want my thoughts on the matter:

I've said this before and I'll say it again many times, using tournament results to override what we know about a character is really bad logic. The competitive player base for MKX is TINY. Then, the amount of people you can plausibly even expect to win a tournament you can count on one hand. Remember when no Boneshapers made the top 8 in EVO, but Reptile and Kitana did? Tournament results are anecdotal, unfortunately, the reality of the situation is if you lost with the #1 character, it's not because he's not the #1 character - it's because you got outplayed by your opponent.

People need to stop blaming balance for their losses, and start accepting that they may have made a mistake in their play (oh the horror!). Not directed specifically at you either, just the mentality of TYM in general. And it goes both ways, QC may be stronger than every other character at the moment, but not stupidly so, and other than his good match-ups, if I lose to him it's very likely because I got outplayed not because he has some crazy advantage stopping me from winning a tournament. However, that's not a reason not to try get him as balanced as possible.

I didn't make any statements involving the logic of his placing at EVO, other than the fact that logically it disproves the argument that Quan Chi needs those buffs because he can't place at tourneys, the insinuation that you were making to begin with. So let's move past this silly myth that tourney results are what we should be balancing characters on.

 

[RagingRicans]

I think making Bat mid is the best possible solution. Still gets pressure and mix up opportunities. Still has a great full screen presence. Still have solid frame advantage.

Like Chef said. Making his armored teleport a little better sounds like a fair way to compensate.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

The question was immediately answered by someone else

No, they answered how Summoner got a buff from it. You said Warlock didn't need that buff so I want to know what Warlock got from it.

You are the only person using tourney results as proof or logic to make any conclusions at all, if you want my thoughts on the matter:

I didn't make any statements involving the logic of his placing at EVO, other than the fact that logically it disproves the argument that Quan Chi needs those buffs because he can't place at tourneys, the insinuation that you were making to begin with. So let's move past this silly myth that tourney results are what we should be balancing characters on.

Not true at all, read my first post. I wasn't saying anything about Quan being good or not good, I was just asking the people who DO think he's good why they think he hasn't placed out of curiosity.



Also it doesn't matter what your opinions on the validity of tournament results affecting buffs are, because I never challenged that. I was saying that @Haou Shoukou Ken had flawed logic because he said Quan getting top 8 at Evo was enough to prove that he was broken, which is definitely not sound logic unless he wants to imply that ALL characters that got top 8 are too good and need to be nerfed.

Also just to be clear, it's hypocritical of you to say we can't use tournament results to back up our opinions on character balance but then immediately say:

He got top 5 at EVO, he was clearly good enough as is.

 

[M.D.]

In b4 everyone realises it's easier to beat a Summoner Quan Chi than a Grandmaster Sub played at the same level.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Also just to be clear, it's hypocritical of you to say we can't use tournament results to back up our opinions on character balance but then immediately say: "
He got top 5 at EVO, he was clearly good enough as is."

To be clear, and unmistakably clear because I thought I was last time: tourney placings don't mean shit. You take that one sentence completely out of context, then it looks like I'm saying that they do. But back in context, I was replying to you using tourney placings as a way to judge a characters power level, which if we are doing that, the argument cancels itself out because QC got top 5 at freaking EVO.
To me that means nothing, Reptile got top 8 and he clearly needing improving still. But if you are going to ask how come Quan is so good if he doesn't have the tournament record to show it, I think mentioning that he actually DOES have some excellent credentials is a fair response, it was using your own logic against you and showing you the flaws in it. But that being said, there is a lot more merit to a character making it to the top 8, than not making it there. Being top 8 when you KNOW the competition is on point shows that the character has the potential to compete. Not making top 8 means a lot less, 80% of the cast usually doesn't make top 8 it can just mean their players weren't as good

I don't think we should be making balance statements based on either however

 

[I GOT HANDS]

In b4 everyone realises it's easier to beat a Summoner Quan Chi than a Grandmaster Sub played at the same level.

For Johnny Cage that's actually true

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

To be clear, and unmistakably clear because I thought I was last time: tourney placings don't mean shit. You take that one sentence completely out of context, then it looks like I'm saying that they do. But back in context, I was replying to you using tourney placings as a way to judge a characters power level, which if we are doing that, the argument cancels itself out because QC got top 5 at freaking EVO.
To me that means nothing, Reptile got top 8 and he clearly needing improving still. But if you are going to ask how come Quan is so good if he doesn't have the tournament record to show it, I think mentioning that he actually DOES have some excellent credentials is a fair response, it was using your own logic against you and showing you the flaws in it.

None of that is true because like I said already, I wasn't using tournament results to back up ANYTHING. I was just asking why people who think Quan is OP think that he isn't placing much. I even prefaced it with "Totally out of curiosity".

Also, @Haou Shoukou Ken said that Quan being Top 8 meant he needed to be nerfed, and I said that that didn't make any sense, so if you think that tournament results shouldn't be used for balance purposes, why are you disagreeing with me? That's the complete opposite of what you are saying, in fact you should be agreeing with me.



And I'm still waiting on the Skull changes for Warlock from you.

 

[Haou Shoukou Ken]

I didn't say Quan being in top 8 at Evo shouldn't hold a lot of weight. Obviously Quan is super good.

The point of this thread is people saying Quan is TOO good though and needs to be nerfed.

Well by that logic, is every character that made top 8 at Evo TOO good?

I'm pretty sure your logic is weaker than mine in that regard.

lol my point proven your not exactly the shiniest tool in the shed huh?
not only did you change the context on my statement but you also wrecked that as well...
most of that evo top 8 DID get nerfed fool LOOOOL so they were probably "TOO good".
lol oh chef

 

[Haou Shoukou Ken]

I was saying that @Haou Shoukou Ken had flawed logic because he said Quan getting top 8 at Evo was enough to prove that he was broken, which is definitely not sound logic unless he wants to imply that ALL characters that got top 8 are too good and need to be nerfed.

LMFAO how did you get all that from this vvvvvvvv

lol chef, are you hearing yourself?
"Quan placing top 8 AT EVO shouldn't hold so much weight" - chef (also this being BEFORE all the rest of the top 8 characters were nerfed).
lol chef your logic FailFish
just cus your quan chi isnt great doesn't mean the character isnt

LMFAO chef you are reachinnggggggggg

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

How did I change the context of what you said... I quoted the whole thing... That's literally the entire context lol...

And you put words into my mouth that I never even implied so you're one to talk:

"Quan placing top 8 AT EVO shouldn't hold so much weight"

And if you think all of Evo Top 8 was nerf worthy then so be it. Guess I can't argue with you having that opinion.

your not exactly the shiniest tool in the shed huh?

that's a pretty godlike quote though

Who are you anyway? You act like you know me.

 

[Haou Shoukou Ken]

still reaching chef...

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

still reaching chef...

still not answering me haou...

 

[Haou Shoukou Ken]

still not answering me haou...

Im you from a more advanced dimension, trying to stop you from making an ass of ourself.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

i guess ill spell it out for chef!!!!

Haou Shoukou Ken said: ↑

"Quan placing top 8 AT EVO shouldn't hold so much weight" - chef (also this being BEFORE all the rest of the top 8 characters were nerfed).
lol chef your logic FailFish
just cus your quan chi isnt great doesn't mean the character isnt

EGP Wonder_Chef said: ↑
I was saying that @Haou Shoukou Ken had flawed logic because he said Quan getting top 8 at Evo was enough to prove that he was broken, which is definitely not sound logic unless he wants to imply that ALL characters that got top 8 are too good and need to be nerfed.

unless he wants to imply that ALL characters that got top 8 are too good and need to be nerfed.

nowhere did he even come close to imply that in any way.



pay attention to the bold/underline/esp the red.
shouldn't hold so much weight meant it wasn't important that he placed top8 at evo. then went on to say separately without the buffs, he placed top8, so why was the buffs needed. if the character can perform why buff him.... there was no clear disadvantage with that character that needed addressing!

do you see where your comments are ludicrous?

i wont be here to reply, if you don't get it after this, there is nothing that can be done for you!

 

[I GOT HANDS]

And I'm still waiting on the Skull changes for Warlock from you.

And I just want to see how long you are going to keep milking this typo for, it's enjoyable to watch

i guess ill spell it out for chef!!!!





nowhere did he even come close to imply that in any way.



pay attention to the bold/underline/esp the red.
shouldn't hold so much weight meant it wasn't important that he placed top8 at evo. then went on to say separately without the buffs, he placed top8, so why was the buffs needed. if the character can perform why buff him.... there was no clear disadvantage with that character that needed addressing!

do you see where your comments are ludicrous?

i wont be here to reply, if you don't get it after this, there is nothing that can be done for you!

Thanks for explaining it for him, but he won't get it. He's deliberately twisting this as he has been from the start lol.

It's because hes revolving his entire argument around tournament placings, hes saying "well if you aren't agreeing with me that QC doesn't have a respectable enough tournament record to be called OP, you must be saying he was OP back in EVO!" No you muppet lol, he was pointing out the flaws in your original statement, didn't say a single thing about tournament placings meaning shit

 

[legion666]

I like how everyone is talking about nerfing Summoner, but bring up Sorcerer's top 8 placing at evo to prove how broken he is. I also love how nonames imply that Michaelangelo, Yams, Shujinkydink and others are scrubs for not placing that much with an absolutely broken ass character. And who do we have complaining here again?!?!? Oh yeah! People who don't even go to tournaments. I guess another "Nerf Quan" thread turning into a shit storm where @I GOT HANDS trolls the shit out of everyone (ha got @EGP Wonder_Chef this time) only proves that people who ask for Quan to be nerfed don't have an idea WTF they are talking about. Can the mods just be closing these as soon as they appear unless it is created by a tournament player who has enough experience to call things broken?!?!?