Question - Summoner Is Quan Chi in reality a mid tier character?

[Aramonde]

I don't have a whole lot to say about it to be honest. I totally understand where he's coming from, but at the same time, the use of a F3 constantly being blocked at distance after jailing from straight skull and going for f212 on block and not always a 50/50 means quan actually does a decent job of building meter. You can also wiff two head grabs after a 141 on hit for meter build, similar to the way Kenshi players wiff spirit charge after a teleflurry.

If you play Warlock with the gameplan of building meter so there is always a reversal the opponent has to respect, it transforms the game for him.

Realistically, no, you won't have a reversal 100% of the time, but you can do the best job you can to make sure you always have at least one bar available.

It's also not just the reversal that warlock does a good job with, his f3 is a lifesaver for matchups like Kitana, or other characters that may do a good job shutting down fullscreen bat/armour spell.

Thanks man that makes sense.

ps. love the show ^_^

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

Absolutley not. Unfortunately, you are one of many victims of this very rancid and poisonous propaganda. Rehabilitation is in order.

Besides, you can trust me. Myself and the entire Tanya community is by far the most trustworthy community on TYM.

I had no idea the Tanya community was the most trustworthy on TYM.
I'll trust them to watch my house when I'm gone, but idk about tier placement.

 

[RunwayMafia]

Lol Kipp I love you but your Tanya downplaying is appalling.

Appalling!!? Aaron, are you truly APPALLED?

I would never downplay Tanya...how dare you!

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

Typical Dave shitpost, spreading his "incandescent" zoning propaganda. Stop taking the Trump route Dave for getting your point across. It's not working. It's never worked. Go play some more Deception and dream of better days.

 

[PND_Ketchup]

Thanks man that makes sense.

ps. love the show ^_^

No problemo!

 

[LEGEND]

1. You're the only person who I'm making "zero sense" to. Think about that.

2. The whole "character as a whole" thing does indeed mean a lot when a thread is about a TIER LIST PLACING.

I was under the impression that most people understood how pointless a tier list by character is for this game. Considering this exact topic has come up before and always seems to be the case

"characters as a whole" don't exist, i dont see how it matters, considering i already laid out how combining them makes no functional/real world sense

I swear there was whole pages of posts in a thread not too long ago arguing with Youphamism ( however its spelt) telling him how dumb he was for saying the exact thing that you are right now

Thought this topic was dead and done with but i guess you can all continue bullshitting with eachother

 

[PND_Ketchup]

I was under the impression that most people understood how pointless a tier list by character is for this game. Considering this exact topic has come up before and always seems to be the case

"characters as a whole" don't exist, i dont see how it matters, considering i already laid out how combining them makes no functional/real world sense

I swear there was whole pages of posts in a thread not too long ago arguing with Youphamism ( however its spelt) telling him how dumb he was for saying the exact thing that you are right now

Thought this topic was dead and done with but i guess you can all continue bullshitting with eachother

Quote me where I said the opposite to Youphemism.

You also seem very dead certain that you're right about something you're 100% wrong about. Quan Chi covers every Matchup in the game with all of his variations and therefore is 100% an S Tier Character. I seriously do not understand what there is about that you don't understand.

This game is literally about mastering all variations that make a difference in matchups. The entire reason there are character variations in the first place. The fact you said that variations are for people that are too lazy to learn another character confirms to me that you don't know what you're talking about.

This was the original discussion and my point still stands.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Stahp

Edit: Ill give you Lao as being better than her though.

Where do you think Tanya sits? I'll trust your opinion on it since you know and play him and have no reason to up-play and clearly aren't interested in downplaying her either

I thought she was somewhere shy of the top 10. Do you agree with this top 5 stuff?

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

I thought you're Vietnamese

While watching match videos I just wish some of them used d1 MB rune to get his offense going, just like how Kitana player doing stuffs with d1 fan and yolo d1 lift. But most of them panicked

D1 MB Rune should already be standard for every quan.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Where do you think Tanya sits? I'll trust your opinion on it since you know and play him and have no reason to up-play and clearly aren't interested in downplaying her either

I thought she was somewhere shy of the top 10. Do you agree with this top 5 stuff?

There's no way she isn't top 5 in the current state of the game. Her offense is great but what solidifies a top 5 spot is the fact that she has great pressure plus great defense. To have a safe armored reversal/wakeup in this game is an insanely underrated tool IMO.

I do think she will become much more manageable once more people get familiar with how her conditioning offense works and such, but that doesnt really matter if you always have to worry about her basically getting to start her pressure again with one bar at any time.

 

[Rude]

Quote me where I said the opposite to Youphemism.

You also seem very dead certain that you're right about something you're 100% wrong about. Quan Chi covers every Matchup in the game with all of his variations and therefore is 100% an S Tier Character. I seriously do not understand what there is about that you don't understand.

This game is literally about mastering all variations that make a difference in matchups. The entire reason there are character variations in the first place. The fact you said that variations are for people that are too lazy to learn another character confirms to me that you don't know what you're talking about.

This was the original discussion and my point still stands.

I'm not entirely sure I agree that Warlock covers all of them. I think Shinnok, particularly in Imposter, beats Quan accross the board.

I remembered seeing Dink list this as a bad mu as well.

What are your thoughts?

 

[LEGEND]

Quote me where I said the opposite to Youphemism.

You also seem very dead certain that you're right about something you're 100% wrong about. Quan Chi covers every Matchup in the game with all of his variations and therefore is 100% an S Tier Character. I seriously do not understand what there is about that you don't understand.

This game is literally about mastering all variations that make a difference in matchups. The entire reason there are character variations in the first place. The fact you said that variations are for people that are too lazy to learn another character confirms to me that you don't know what you're talking about.

This was the original discussion and my point still stands.

Ok, we are clearly not on the same page. Are you saying that Quan has no bad MUs or that his Variations cover the ones each may have?



If its the latter
, Then i have said this myself on multiple occasions. However, i don't believe this matters in the slightest. The disconnect here is that you do, and i have no idea why or even how that makes sense

Ex: You pick sorcerer. Other person picked Mournful and you get shit on. You Then go to Summoner, win, and your opponent goes to Wrestler and again shits all over you. . .in this scenario you used Quan and Countered to the best of the variation system's utility but still lost to bad Mus. Insert whatever MUs you want, you can always be counter picked or lose the initial characters select MU.

So how does combining variations for character tier list make functional sense, when you could swap the variation you counter picked with for a number of other character's variation instead and get the same or better results in terms of mu advantages?

 

[I GOT HANDS]

There's no way she isn't top 5 in the current state of the game. Her offense is great but what solidifies a top 5 spot is the fact that she has great pressure plus great defense. To have a safe armored reversal/wakeup in this game is an insanely underrated tool IMO.

I do think she will become much more manageable once more people get familiar with how her conditioning offense works and such, but that doesnt really matter if you always have to worry about her basically getting to start her pressure again with one bar at any time.

But her rekka pressure is ALWAYS unsafe and has a punish window if you can read it right, and her only real mix-up is the delay timing (which is more of mitigating the negative safety aspect of her otherwise godlike pressure, than an actual "mix-up"), and throws. I mean, her pressure strings do a shitload of chip and meter build and can be taken off just about anything, but as much as she builds meter I feel like she relies on it just as much. To me it feels like Hellfire does everything better except for armor, and her F2... not saying you are wrong here, just trying to learn, this is my perspective on her so far, she really doesn't feel like a top 5 character to me and the only thing possibly making her play like one is as you said, she is a longwinded character to get used to playing against optimally. I think as time goes on, if the game was to remain unchanged, she would likely be outside the top 10

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

if you can read it right

This is the biggest problem of any matchup against Tanya. The guessing game is more in her favour. You get wrong she can either hit confirmable into full combo, or punish unsafe armor and get her pressure going with more chip. She can also make her gapless rekka safe with 1 bar at the end. And she has 1 amazing mid to play neutral game, some top tier characters don't even have one

 

[PND_Ketchup]

I'm not entirely sure I agree that Warlock covers all of them. I think Shinnok, particularly in Imposter, beats Quan accross the board.

I remembered seeing Dink list this as a bad mu as well.

What are your thoughts?

Shinnok Quan is a 5/5.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

But her rekka pressure is ALWAYS unsafe and has a punish window if you can read it right, and her only real mix-up is the delay timing (which is more of mitigating the negative safety aspect of her otherwise godlike pressure, than an actual "mix-up"), and throws. I mean, her pressure strings do a shitload of chip and meter build and can be taken off just about anything, but as much as she builds meter I feel like she relies on it just as much. To me it feels like Hellfire does everything better except for armor, and her F2... not saying you are wrong here, just trying to learn, this is my perspective on her so far, she really doesn't feel like a top 5 character to me and the only thing possibly making her play like one is as you said, she is a longwinded character to get used to playing against optimally. I think as time goes on, if the game was to remain unchanged, she would likely be outside the top 10

Hellfire? As in Scorpion?

 

[PND_Ketchup]

Ok, we are clearly not on the same page. Are you saying that Quan has no bad MUs or that his Variations cover the ones each may have?



If its the latter
, Then i have said this myself on multiple occasions. However, i don't believe this matters in the slightest. The disconnect here is that you do, and i have no idea why or even how that makes sense

Ex: You pick sorcerer. Other person picked Mournful and you get shit on. You Then go to Summoner, win, and your opponent goes to Wrestler and again shits all over you. . .in this scenario you used Quan and Countered to the best of the variation system's utility but still lost to bad Mus. Insert whatever MUs you want, you can always be counter picked or lose the initial characters select MU.

So how does combining variations for character tier list make functional sense, when you could swap the variation you counter picked with for a number of other character's variation instead and get the same or better results in terms of mu advantages?

His variations cover all the bad matches the other may have IMO.

You won't lose as Sorcerer and Pick Summoner because Summoner covers a bad area Sorcerer struggles with. They have the same weakness.

If you get zoned by Kitana, you won't go Summoner, you'll go warlock. If your opponent picks wrestler Jax you won't get your ass beat like summoner will up close because you'll have both a 6 frame d1 and an 11 frame reversal he has to respect.

 

[Zoidberg747]

But her rekka pressure is ALWAYS unsafe and has a punish window if you can read it right, and her only real mix-up is the delay timing (which is more of mitigating the negative safety aspect of her otherwise godlike pressure, than an actual "mix-up"), and throws. I mean, her pressure strings do a shitload of chip and meter build and can be taken off just about anything, but as much as she builds meter I feel like she relies on it just as much. To me it feels like Hellfire does everything better except for armor, and her F2... not saying you are wrong here, just trying to learn, this is my perspective on her so far, she really doesn't feel like a top 5 character to me and the only thing possibly making her play like one is as you said, she is a longwinded character to get used to playing against optimally. I think as time goes on, if the game was to remain unchanged, she would likely be outside the top 10

Thats actually not true for every character. rekka 1 is extremely hard to punish unless you have a 6f reversal. Plus once you condition them with that they have to try and anticipate whether you will delay your 2nd rekka or not. If you dont and you do EX rekka instead, they now get blown up into even more guaranteed chip which just about builds the entire bar back.

The thing is she has the best meter building in the game. So although she uses a lot of meter, she also builds more meter than she needs.

Her f2 is a great footsie tool. Its not the best in the game, but its damn good, especially because it can be made plus with tele cancels.

And again I think you are ignoring her best tool, the EX rekka. Its a safe armored move that if it hits, she does tons of chip and builds the bar back. If it gets blocked...she still does a ton of chip, and still more then likely builds the entire bar back. That and it can be used as a wakeup, reversal, and conditioning tool. EX rekka is the reason she is and will always be top 5 in my book. Makes her almost always have the advantage.

 

[Rude]

Shinnok Quan is a 5/5.

I'm glad we had that talk. Good to know we can have such in depth dialogue.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Thats actually not true for every character. rekka 1 is extremely hard to punish unless you have a 6f reversal. Plus once you condition them with that they have to try and anticipate whether you will delay your 2nd rekka or not. If you dont and you do EX rekka instead, they now get blown up into even more guaranteed chip which just about builds the entire bar back.

The thing is she has the best meter building in the game. So although she uses a lot of meter, she also builds more meter than she needs.

Her f2 is a great footsie tool. Its not the best in the game, but its damn good, especially because it can be made plus with tele cancels.

And again I think you are ignoring her best tool, the EX rekka. Its a safe armored move that if it hits, she does tons of chip and builds the bar back. If it gets blocked...she still does a ton of chip, and still more then likely builds the entire bar back. That and it can be used as a wakeup, reversal, and conditioning tool. EX rekka is the reason she is and will always be top 5 in my book. Makes her almost always have the advantage.

Thanks for the perspectives

Btw thats what I was saying, F2 and the Ex-Rekka are the good things she has that someone like Hellfire doesn't

 

[RM slacked]

I think Shinnok, particularly in Imposter, beats Quan accross the board.

Both characters have slow and unsafe normals unless you're willing to spend a bar, both have the ability to vortex the living hell out of you, Shinnok has a teleport and mediocre zoning while Quan has 10/10 zoning with a hard to block mixup.

This matchup is either a 5/5 or 6/4 Quan, but then again this is my OPINION.

 

[Rude]

Both characters have slow and unsafe normals unless you're willing to spend a bar, both have the ability to vortex the living hell out of you, Shinnok has a teleport and mediocre zoning while Quan has 10/10 zoning with a hard to block mixup.

This matchup is either a 5/5 or 6/4 Quan, but then again this is my OPINION.

Thanks. I appreciate your perspective.

 

[RM slacked]

Thanks. I appreciate your perspective.

Also, keep in mind I play Summoner and Sorcerer as backup characters.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

Shinnok Quan is a 5/5.

Shinnok probably loses to quan imo, at best it's 5/5. Quan does basically what shinnok does but better and with more damage.

 

[Invincible Salads]

make his corner damage 40% max, that 50% to 60 % is too much.

he's still not the best char in the game. Considering summoner has 1 for sure 3-7 and may have a couple more even. I fail to see how he could be leagues beyond the other characters.